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Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II

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Damage3245 said:
@Rocker1189; right now on the sandbox Kabuto gets his scaling from Itachi.
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Firstly Nagato's reactions should be sub-rel for activating Gakido in time even when massively weakened.

Second his animal paths reacting to Naruto def means he can too, Their eyes are based on his and he shares that vision. He also reacted to Naruto's rasengan.

And Itachi's reasonings have been said above.
 
Wrath Of Itachi said:
No, he's Sub-Rel in the sandbox for fighting MS Sasuke. Also Itachi scales to KCM Naruto and Killer B, Kavuto scales to EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi.
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In the sandbox that's just for his Version 1 key and above.

Base Killer B is scaled to "At least MHS+".
 
Tbh Idek why base killer B is rated that. A guy who was completely overwhelming the reactions of a sub rel character but gets listed as at least MHS+?
 
@Wrath of Itachi; maybe in terms of reactions but my suggestions was for his combat speed.

@Rocker1189; When did Nagato's summons react to Naruto? I recall for them is Naruto hitting the multi-headed dog with his Rasenshuriken.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Rocker1189; When did Nagato's summons react to Naruto? I recall for them is Naruto hitting the multi-headed dog with his Rasenshuriken.
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When Naruto attacks Nagato attacks Nagato after he absorbs KB's cloak. He gets caught by the lizard.
 
@Rocker1189; alright, so Sub-Rel reactions could be argued for, but I think Nagato's overall speed rating is At least MHS+.

Or "At least Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed with higher reactions".

Nagato is also operating on auto-pilot when he blocks the Rasengan; he isn't himself. As seen with the Edo Kages fight, they just automatically use jutsu without control over their body.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Rocker1189; alright, so Sub-Rel reactions could be argued for, but I think Nagato's overall speed rating is At least MHS+.
Or "At least Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed with higher reactions".

Nagato is also operating on auto-pilot when he blocks the Rasengan; he isn't himself. As seen with the Edo Kages fight, they just automatically use jutsu without control over their body.
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Ok but automatic reactions does not give you higher speed, you could have the best auto reactions ever Ala MUI and still not react to anything faster than you logically. And if they are higher with reactions it would be sub-rel with reactions. It still means that Itachi should def be sub-rel he was capable of completely outpacing all the senses of Nagato much better than KCM Naruto or Killer Bee could and he attacks multiple things at once.

Edo tensei does not boost their reactions either it just makes them follow certain commands.
 
@Rocker1189; this might sound a bit pedantic but I don't think Itachi's really counts there as outpacing Nagato's senses.

He through Kunai in from blindspots to take out Nagato's extra view points, followed up by a surprise attack with his Susano'o to free Naruto and Killer B.

I'd say that both Nagato and Itachi are definitely "At least MHS+" in terms of combat speed.

> And if they are higher with reactions it would be sub-rel with reactions.

Not necessarily, it can still be a higher degree of MHS+. And when Nagato's blocked Naruto's Rasengan, he did actually see Naruto charging it up and heard Naruto telling him that he didn't know what Pain's jutsu was before he used it on him.

I wouldn't say that qualifies him for Sub-Rel reactions.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Rocker1189; this might sound a bit pedantic but I don't think Itachi's really counts there as outpacing Nagato's senses.
He through Kunai in from blindspots to take out Nagato's extra view points, followed up by a surprise attack with his Susano'o to free Naruto and Killer B.

I'd say that both Nagato and Itachi are definitely "At least MHS+" in terms of combat speed.

> And if they are higher with reactions it would be sub-rel with reactions.

Not necessarily, it can still be a higher degree of MHS+. And when Nagato's blocked Naruto's Rasengan, he did actually see Naruto charging it up and heard Naruto telling him that he didn't know what Pain's jutsu was before he used it on him.

I wouldn't say that qualifies him for Sub-Rel reactions.
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It is pedantic, you would notice that before KB could even come anywhere near Nagato all the eyes of the summons tracked him perfectly, even throwing through blind spots would still have him see the kunai, but he did not at all. It is a combination of blind spots and speed.

Except Nagato reacted to KB's Lariat right on top of him and even if he could see Naruto's rasenga before hand he activated his absorption right afterwards. Itachi should be sub-rel in general for all the reasons stated above.

KCM Naruto, outpaces Nagato's reactions, kept up with Sage Kabuto and MS Sasuke.
 
> It is pedantic, you would notice that before KB could even come anywhere near Nagato all the eyes of the summons tracked him perfectly, even throwing through blind spots would still have him see the kunai, but he did not at all. It is a combination of blind spots and speed.

Yeah; because they spotted Killer B and allowed Nagato to react.

But Kabuto notes specifcally that Itachi targeted his extra eyes from blind spots so that his targets couldn't get out of the way.

This meant Nagato couldn't see Itachi himself coming.

> Except Nagato reacted to KB's Lariat right on top of him and even if he could see Naruto's rasenga before hand he activated his absorption right afterwards. Itachi should be sub-rel in general for all the reasons stated above.

Nagato didn't react to Killer B's Lariat.

Yes, he activated his absorption but that doesn't mean his reactions scale to Naruto's speed is he saw him charging it up before he used it.

> kept up with Sage Kabuto and MS Sasuke.

These two are only Sub Rel because of scaling to Itachi.
 
And Itachi is sub rel for keeping up with Naruto. Yeah get out of the line of fire, but there was 0 indication that they even noticed it.
 
> And Itachi is sub rel for keeping up with Naruto.

I explained up above why I don't think that means Itachi is Sub-Rel.

There entire fight consists of these three pages where Naruto reacts to Itachi coming at them from above, they spar very briefly with Itachi being unable to land a hit on Naruto. It doesn't look to me like Naruto is seriously fighting back here, and they're both talking to each other throughout the exchange.

I don't think this conflicts with Itachi being "At least MHS+".
 
Lthesavant said:
I know this is irrelevant, but there is a dude in CV that is saying that Base Naruto and Sasuke are weaker than Sarada because of the volumes statements and is saying that this is enough to assume the author is drugged and light novels and databooks should be ignored.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...er-files-ninja-encyclopedia-powerlvl-2064905/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...lid-light-speedrelativistic-Reaction-2064570/
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Those volume statements have nothing to do with the LN's or Databooks, Those are from the Boruto manga, not to mention the stats are obviously stupid and not to be taken seriously, it's all a case by case basis, asssociation fallacy's are common at Comicvine since they have the debating mentality of 5 year old children
 
Nagato minimally scales to Itachi Edo, which would make Sub-Rel.

I can even understand Pain being MHS +, but:

  • Nagato Edo clearly took danger and reacted with Naruto KCM, and came up behind Bee and it seems he forced him to use V2 to reac, and reacted to it, activating his abilities, before the damage came.
  • Itachi Edo was also able to exchange punches with Naruto KCM (who also claimed to be much stronger than before), came up behind Killer B (who only reacted, because he warned him before attacking), kept up with Kabuto Sage and Sasuke EMS, which would also make it minimally Sub-Rel. Naruto also knows that the Edos are immortal and are being controlled, so he has no reason to hold back and there is no evidence of this
And Nagato only used his Gakido after Naruto tried to hit him with Rasengan. If he had used Gakido at the time Naruto concentrated the chakra for Rasengan, it would have been a different story, but he reacted to Naruto KCM's attack.

Itachi and Nagato Edo being MHS+, however, keeping up with Naruto KCM and forcing Bee to use V2, is completely meaningless.
 
> If he had used Gakido at the time Naruto concentrated the chakra for Rasengan. If he had used Gakido at the time Naruto concentrated the chakra for Rasengan, it would have been a different story, but he reacted to Naruto KCM's attack.

I'm pretty sure it isn't visible until it is hit by a jutsu.
 
@MostPowerfull; that's fair. Though I think it's still a solid possibility that Nagato could have the Preta Path activate before Naruto uses his Rasengan. He did seem to have the time for it.

As for the other points, EMS Sasuke and Kabuto's scaling would need to be looked into because right now I think they're currently scaling from Itachi.

Naruto not being fully serious in his fight against Itachi can be seen from the fact that he was talking to him during the fight and mostly fighting defensively.

KCM Naruto's top speed being Sub Rel, and Nagato, Killer B and Itachi in that fight all being "At least Massively Hypersonic+" doesn't seem like a big problem to me.
 
@Damage

Possibility yes. What we saw, no.
Occam's razor, in this case. Use what we see or what can be.

Not exactly. Kabuto MS maybe, but Sasuke EMS is clearly ported and implied as superior, albeit on a level of unknown. He barely participates in the battle with Kabuto.

The same Naruto says that he is much stronger than against Nagato previously and that being on the defensive, it is possible for Itachi to be comparable to him. Aside from the fact that he knows about Edo and how it works, nothing indicates that.
Again, Occam's Razor.

They kept with Naruto KCM and forced Bee to his V2 (there were some apparent blitzes from both Nagato and Itachi at Bee Base.). Scaling is fair and makes sense.
 
I would propose their ratings as:

Itachi: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Able to keep up with base Killer B and Nagato) with higher reactions (Able to react to KCM Naruto during their brief fight)

Nagato: At least Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed (Able to react to and capture base Killer B, but the loss of his legs make him mostly immobile) with higher reactions (Able to absorb KCM Naruto's Rasenga)


I don't think forcing B to use V2 is a significant speed feat; Killer B might have just wanted to use the destructive power of V2.
 
I don't agree with your proposal, Damage. As I said above, I think Itachi and Nagato should be Sub-Relativistic, and I also agree with the others who think the same, as MP, Jvando and Rocker
 
I disagree. I propose the following :

Edo Itachi - At least Sub-Relativístic (Faster than when his was sick. Kept up with Naruto KCM and was able to apparently blitz Base Bee. Kept up with Kabuto Sage Mode, which must be faster than Guy w/ 1st gate).

Edo Nagato - At least Sub-Relativistic (Able to react to Killer B, without even looking at it. Able to blitz and force Bee to use V2, reacting and absorbing his Lariat before taking damage)

Use destructive power, right after Nagato appears on your back from nowhere? I strongly disagree with this.
 
@MostPowerfull; when did Nagato react to Killer B without even looking at him?

I would prefer to get more staff input in this. I think rating them both as "At least Sub Rel" is too high.
 
Damage3245 said:
@MostPowerfull; when did Nagato react to Killer B without even looking at him?
Click to expand...
it was when he was extracting Naruto's Soul i believe, and Killer bee appeared at his side, Nagato was able to react without even turning his head and used the Asura path to create a new arm to hold Killer bee
 
TataHakai said:
it was when he was extracting Naruto's Soul i believe, and Killer bee appeared at his side, Nagato was able to react without even turning his head and used the Asura path to create a new arm to hold Killer bee
Click to expand...
Ah. I can understand why someone would think that, but Nagato explicitly saw him coming at that time.
 
I disagree. There is nothing "too high", that would literally ignore some things that happened in the manga.

Itachi was able to keep up with Sasuke Hebi, who was clearly told that his reactions were deteriorated, apart from being sick and etc.
A speed increase from Itachi Edo would be justified and makes sense. And he has also kept up with Kabuto SM, who is obviously above Guy 1st Gate.

The same with Nagato ... He was extremely weakened thanks to the constant use of chakra.

But I think we have several people who know the verse, disagreeing with Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato being MHS+. If we need to staff, I would like the opinions of Mindovin, Jvando and DDM, who are knowledgeable about the verse, to ask them for their opinions.
 
I agree Itachi definitely scales to sub rel he even has to warn them about his attacks that are coming he is even fast enough to catch them in genjutsu before they react.Nagato was able to send Naruto and everyone else flying beofre they could even react. He was right in front of them jsut some meters away before he showed himself and he sent them all flying away. He definitely scales to KCM Naruto who saw him first and couldn't even react before getting sent flying
 
@MostPowerfull; I wouldn't rate Kabuto based on the assumption that he "should be above 1st Gate Guy".

My proposal isn't putting them as just MHS+, but At least MHS+ with higher reactions, or even Sub Rel reactions.

I think your justifications are writing them up to be too high; I don't think Itachi blitzed base Killer B, and Nagato didn't blitz Killer B either just because he appeared behind him. Nagato reacting to Killer B's Lariat (seemingly after getting hit by it though) would support his reaction speed being higher, like I'm proposing. But his overall combat speed I'd say is closer to "At least MHS+".

> He was right in front of them jsut some meters away before he showed himself and he sent them all flying away. He definitely scales to KCM Naruto who saw him first and couldn't even react before getting sent flying

It was a surprise attack thanks to his chameleon's invisibility.
 
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