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- #601
You know I’m right though lol
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Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)
- Thread starter LordTracer
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Well yea, it is the same sand, but the sand itself has never tanked anything of that level. (at least up to this point)
Well, same i guess
I mean in the wiki system, either one is vastly inferior, or one isnt, i personally dont like it, but either way thats off topic. No matter what her durability is, if she didnt get directly hit, a 6-C attack would cut just as much as an 7-A one would.
No not really, as long as her durability was equal to the energy she was outputting on the block of iron, she would be fine, said energy would probably land somewhere in tier 8 from eyeballing it.
My argument is that i disagree with the scaling/feats, whether im correct or not is what we are trying to argue here.
Okay but now we are going into a completely different topic of scaling through ranks, which as you said isnt reliable cause, genin beat kaguya, imo it should never be done and we should judge the scaling from feats/statements, and Asuma himself doesnt have anything going against scaling to them, as they are his only feats.
Also btw sry if im being rude or sounding rude, or anything of the sort, i am just trying to speak my mind on the topic and often times i can sound like a grumpy idiot.
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What.
Weightless Lee shattered his entire face but didn't do anything to the shield.
Sasuke did the exact same thing but started bleeding when he punched the shield.
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That one was anime only, in the manga only time she attacked his sand was when Sasori wasnt attacking with it, if she managed to overpower his attack i would agree with scaling her.
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- #605
That doesn’t matter. The sand is superior to the 7-B+ ordinary sand, all of his sand is 7-A.
You can’t say if she was directly hit or not though. You see an impact where Sakura is not visible on panel, and then you see her with cuts. All we know is that she was hit by the iron sand, so her durability would scale to that.
She still wouldn’t be able to move a block 100,000x more durable than her AP.
And you don’t have any actual arguments against them. You just claimed nothing says that they’re Kage level, except that’s straight-up untrue. If you won the argument, then nothing would say they’re Kage level. But since the argument is still going on, the feats would still be Kage level.
I wasn’t the one that said it isn’t reliable. I am of the belief that if a character doesn’t have any feats, and nothing contradicts it, they should be scaled to their rank.
I personally wouldn’t have any issue scaling Asuma to 7-B+ (except that Part I Kakashi would then scale), he just wouldn’t scale directly to Part II Kakashi, Naruto of Sakura.
Nah, you’re fine lol. I apologize if I sound the same, it’s just that a lot of this stuff was discussed earlier in the thread (although I do understand that it’s unrealistic to expect someone to read through seven whole pages beforehand).
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I am refering to normal shield (its just normal gourd sand, but Kankuro called it shield), not the round dome he used against Sasuke
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- #607
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In AP it would be, but why would its durability scale to his AP?
True we cannot see, as such i myself prefer to assume that she didnt get directly hit, but more so got cut by many of the little "iron tendril" attacks.
I would agree if she countered one of Sasori's attacks, as at that point he would be exerthing the AP on it, but when he isnt its just a "unusually durable block of iron".
I have been arguining the feats/scaling this entire time tho... About that, i actually believe its neither, as the argument is still on-going the feats would be in some "weird limbo" inbetween being kage level and not being kage level.
Yea, but then we would get into the problem of a kage level feat scaling to characters whom we know are jonin level, essentially it would end up scaling to too many people and the scaling itself would be compromised.
Nah its all cool its all cool, compared to what the HST can have this is small talk about the weather, nothing rude or anything similar has been said, and ofc glad you feel the same way.
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Lee didn't punch through it. If he did, he would've hit Gaara each time. He just moved faster than the sand, but the sand was able to catch up and grab him before he could damage Gaara.
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Yea yea, that was the "one instance" i was talking about, from what i interpreted it she just punched it into the wall, and the ceiling collapsed cause of it, rather than her punching it through the ceiling.
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Actually you're right, and Kankuro stated that the Sand shield is stronger than the armor. I had forgotten about that.
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- Thread starter
- #613
Why would it not? Gaara uses the same sand for both.
Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I’d still consider it her surviving Iron Sand attacks.
It was decided earlier in the thread that it was Kage tier though, although if you don’t like scaling due to rank, why is your argument based on a rank?
Asuma wouldn’t be full Kage level if he were to become 7-B+ though. And if you want to operate on the assumption that Asuma is jōnin level, then him decapitating Hidan would just be an outlier.
Yeah, some HST debates are really toxic lol. Thankfully this thread has been pretty tame all throughout
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Thanks, I thought that I was misremembering stuff again lol
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Because just cause something is used for both, it doesnt mean it should affect both, his sand has no actual feats of being that durable, and we cannot judge from sand itself attacking things as it is impossible to judge if a sand attack was damaged on contact with something, as it isnt a solid object.
Well, fair is fair
My argument isnt based on a rank, i just happened to mention it in the first message as i believe that they had no implications of being kage level yet, either way the Gaara feat is kage level, i just dont agree with the scaling chain itself.
Hmmm, but if we considered that an outlier, same would go for Naruto fighting god tiers, as he was a genin, as such imo we ignore ranks entirely, the only reason why i mentioned Asuma is because it is clearly implied he is not quite comparable to the Kage of Konoha, and is more so an elite jonin level ninja. (It might sound confusing and as if im contradicting myself but basically what im trying to say, rank is irrelevant, Asuma was just implied to be below Hiruzen and etc etc)
Tbh suprisingly so, for an HST i expected much worse. (I do not know how to cross out sentances on the new forum yet but i most definetely agree there, war arc has the potential to turn the threads itself into a war arc.)
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Tracer, I was noticing something that you kept doing w/ the Sand that I tried to ignore and let you have, but it's too easily debunkable.
You said since it's the same>greater sand, it should have the same>greater dura. That can't be more incorrect.
That's like saying it would take the same amount of force to push back a regular rasengan as it would an ultra big ball rasengan cause it's made out of the same chakra.
Amount matters. It's the same reason why the sand shield and armor have different dura (stated on canon).
That logic of "lesser sand had 7-B AP so it should fit" it has 7-B AP for the sum of all the sand and damage done.
You can't quantify the dura of a rock because of chibaku tensei's AP.
You can't quantify the dura of a regular rasengan because of ultra big ball rasengan's AP.
You can't quantify the dura of each C1 because of C0's AP.
You can't quantify the lightning armor because of it's AP (shown how the Third Raikage was able to penetrate his own armor, yet it's made out of the same material).
And most importantly, you can't quantify a square inch of Gaara's sand for a forest worth of sand's AP.
You said since it's the same>greater sand, it should have the same>greater dura. That can't be more incorrect.
That's like saying it would take the same amount of force to push back a regular rasengan as it would an ultra big ball rasengan cause it's made out of the same chakra.
Amount matters. It's the same reason why the sand shield and armor have different dura (stated on canon).
That logic of "lesser sand had 7-B AP so it should fit" it has 7-B AP for the sum of all the sand and damage done.
You can't quantify the dura of a rock because of chibaku tensei's AP.
You can't quantify the dura of a regular rasengan because of ultra big ball rasengan's AP.
You can't quantify the dura of each C1 because of C0's AP.
You can't quantify the lightning armor because of it's AP (shown how the Third Raikage was able to penetrate his own armor, yet it's made out of the same material).
And most importantly, you can't quantify a square inch of Gaara's sand for a forest worth of sand's AP.
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- #617
It’s infused with the same chakra, so it seems like a much bigger assumption to assume its durability isn’t the same as its AP. Although ig neither of us can really prove our points here.
There’s not really any indication of them being any other tier either though. Like, it’s never said that Naruto and Sakura are drastically weaker a Kage, and they’re comparable to Kakashi, who is a candidate for Sixth Hokage. Iirc, he was going to already become the Sixth Hokage if Tsunade hadn’t have woken up from her coma.
He would still be beneath Hiruzen though. Even if Asuma scaled fully to Hidan (and we know he doesn’t, but just as a hypothetical), Hiruzen would be over ten times stronger than him based on the new scaling. And he’d be significantly weaker than Tsunade too, since Tsunade is scaled above KN4 Naruto, who’s vastly stronger than base Naruto, who Asuma would be around the same level as in this scenario.
To do the strikethrough, you'd click the three dots after the italics symbol, and it gives you a little drop down menu of other options with the text, one of which is the strikethrough.
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- #618
That’s not the same at all though? First of all, the Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan is explicitly stronger than a normal Rasengan. Second of all, Deidara literally said that all of the sand Gaara uses to attack and defend is special in comparison to the sand he used in the 7-B+ calc.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Yeah, so uh.... What the ****?
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I suppose we would need to go into an entire separate debate, so i suppose inconclusive it is
Well, nothing direct yea, implication is subjective ofc, unless naturally, stated beyond directly, in which case it isnt quite implication... But either way i dont see BoS kakashi to be = Pein arc Kakashi, and i also dont see them being completely even to Kakashi.
Yes but hiruzen being on that level depends on this scaling itself, if this scaling isnt as it is, then Hiruzen possibly wont be stronger too, as such its a weird "symbiotic" relationship. About Tsunade/KN4/Asuma stuff that scaling itself would also depend on where we scale Deidara's other feats and all the other scaling shenanigans.
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I think the current debate will only be properly concluded once we decide whether or not the Sand's AP scales to its durability.
I think it's not that crazy of an assumption since they're infused with the same amount of chakra, and the same quantity of sand can always be morphed at Gaara's will to supplement either attacks or be shaped as shields.
Gaara's natural fighting style is kind of entirely focused on defense, which makes separating his AP from his durability kinda difficult.
I think it's not that crazy of an assumption since they're infused with the same amount of chakra, and the same quantity of sand can always be morphed at Gaara's will to supplement either attacks or be shaped as shields.
Gaara's natural fighting style is kind of entirely focused on defense, which makes separating his AP from his durability kinda difficult.
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Well, you are right, i might not quite agree with it but if the majority of people seemingly agree with it, there is definetely evidence of it being the case and id be fine with agreeing to it, as long as we consistently keep up the standard throughout the rest of the revision.
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Just like how a forest of sand is explicitly stronger than a square meter of sand.
The 7-B+ calc referred to the sum of ALL the sand in the forest. If the amount of sand Gaara had in the 7-B+ calc was the same as what he uses to defend, it's a different story.
Gaara does not use (I'm throwing a random number) 2500 cubic meters of sand to defend. You sent the scan prior of Deidara damaging Gaara's sand.
- It's never even stated to be stronger, just faster.
- It's not the same amount of sand.
X = regular Sand. Y = Gaara's Sand (which has no special properties except being able to be controlled better and to move faster).
2500x = 12y.
That's the argument we're having.
You understand my point now?
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- #624
I don’t see why exactly that’d be the case, as we don’t see Kakashi training like we do in between Parts I and II. And Naruto actually surpassed Kakashi before the Pain Arc, as stated by Kakashi himself.
I mean, that’s true, but Hiruzen would always be over 10x stronger since the scaling would be Asuma ≈ Naruto < Sasuke < (10x) CS2 Sasuke < Prime Orochimaru >= Hiruzen. And while there isn’t an exact numerical difference, it would always be Asuma ≈ Naruto < KN4 Naruto < Hokage Tsunade.
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Its not just faster, its way stronger and thats a fact. Deidara easily destroyed the sand arms that were made from normal sand, but he couldn't damage the gourd sand. Also infusing chakra into something doesn't just make it faster.
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Well, i suppose its cause i believe in the "shonen scaling insanity", dont know what else i could comment on it, about him surpassing Kakashi it was after the FRS training? That naruto can ofc scale to Kakashi, i cant quite argue against a statement.
Well, always as long as him and Base Hebi Sasuke scale to the same feat, there would end up a 10x difference, about Tsunade yes obviously she would, what i want to avoid is having everyone clogged into the same 7-A basket, as at a certain point if too many people are in it, the feat itself would become and outlier.
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- #627
That’s fair, but I don’t think such a thing can really be used unless there’s actual implication that a character trained, or is stronger than they were in a previous arc. The reverse is also true, I argued that for Tsunade during Part I being weaker than she was in the Second Shinobi World War because she didn’t train and was treated as being rusty and out-of-practice.
Yeah, so it’s not like Asuma scaling would ruin any scaling since Hiruzen would still be way stronger, and Tsunde would also be way stronger. And if you wanted to bring up the whole “Kage level” thing, one could just argue that Gaara isn’t quite Kage level yet since he’s young and not as strong as the other four Kage. That wouldn’t be too far fetched either, since Gaara in the War Arc is stronger than he was in the beginning of Part II and suddenly on par with the other four.
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A fair opinion ofc, about Tsunade keys, yea, i suppose, i do wonder how its gonna be handled but i suppose we gotta wait and see.
I would agree to the argument as long as we never use kage or any rank scaling to scale anyone, in essence, a rank is just a title, no more, no less.
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- #629
We aren’t using Kage level as a thing, and we probably won’t be using jōnin level as a thing either. But definitely not Kage level. Apart from the War Arc Five Kage, the criteria of strength varies way too much (cause y’know, Hashirama, Tobirama and Naruto are all Kage lol)
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No disrespect, but you dodged my main point.
I have an example that's easier.
Naruto's 2000 clone combo. That attack is the sum of 2000 hands and feet.
So it applies a certain amount of force that's spread out between thousands of limbs.
Now, let's bring Kurama influence Naruto w/ no clones. This is a stronger Naruto.
Does that automatically mean that Naruto can take the force that 2000 lower level Naruto's applied?
Naruto's ultra big ball rasengan. That attack is much larger (I'd say 20 times, even that's a lowball) of the previous basic rasengan.
So it applies a certain amount of force that's spread out between the larger rasengan.
Now, let's bring in Kurama influence Naruto w/ a regular smaller rasengan. This is a stronger Naruto.
Does that automatically mean that KI Naruto's rasengan can take the force that a much larger rasengan from a weaker Naruto applied?
If I had a say, I'd honestly put Gaara's large scale attacks as Environmental Destruction. The dura for a meter worth shouldn't be = the dura of a mile worth.
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Well, imo if one rank doesnt go through none of em should, id much rather just keep people without feats/statements at unknown, but aight.
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- #632
I really hate Unknown ratings, personally, but if someone doesn’t have much scaling and we don’t use ranks, then I guess there’s no alternative.
Although none of the relevant Kage are in that situation, so that’s fine. It’s with the jōnin and chūnin where that would be a thing.
Although none of the relevant Kage are in that situation, so that’s fine. It’s with the jōnin and chūnin where that would be a thing.
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Yea, more or less jonin and chunin, but it should be fine for the vast majority of characters, rare are those without any sort of scaling around.
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Bro 99 megatons is just the kinetic energy required to move all that desert sand, meaning that Gaaras chakra is powerful enough to output that much power, and it scales to all of his attacks. 99 megatons is not its durability, its actually way higher since it was even able to tank C3, a bomb stronger than the one that damaged CM2 Sasuke.
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Okay, since the Gaara discussion is done, or at least almost done, should we shift back our focus to the characters that still need discussing? Those would be Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kisame, Konan, and Tobi I think. (Tell me if I missed anyone).
Once that's done we can finally move on to the Kage Summit I think.
Once that's done we can finally move on to the Kage Summit I think.
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- #636
I think Itachi, Orochimaru and Sasuke are all good. Danzō too, so Kage Summit is basically done. It’s Kisame, Konan and Tobi that still need some discussing before we move on to
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@LordTracer
Well, I mentioned Itachi and the rest because a few people (Damage, M3X, and a few others iirc) were still arguing about them before the conversation shifted to the Gaara stuff, so I assumed that no conclusion was reached, but if everyone is okay with our proposals, then I guess.........uhhhh, yeah welcome to hell lol.
Well, I mentioned Itachi and the rest because a few people (Damage, M3X, and a few others iirc) were still arguing about them before the conversation shifted to the Gaara stuff, so I assumed that no conclusion was reached, but if everyone is okay with our proposals, then I guess.........uhhhh, yeah welcome to hell lol.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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War Arc! WHOOOO! SCALING EXTRAORDINAIRE!
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Don't get too excited, we're rushing straight towards certain death, chaos, and destruction with this one, no doubt. A truly Herculean task if I've ever seen any.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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As long as we fix Rinnegan Obito, I don't really care.
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