Minor Darkseid and Anti-Monitor Revisions

[LordTracer]

This is mainly formatting for Darkseid and a tiering changes for two of Anti-Monitor’s keys.

Darkseid’s Post-Flashpoint tier is currently listed as: Solar System level (Stomped Hal Jordan without difficulty. His Omega Beams knocked out Superman in one hit). At least Universe level, possibly higherduring the Darkseid War (Comparable to the Anti-Monitor)

The Darkseid War should be a key on its own instead of just being thrown into the Post-Flashpoint key.

As for Anti-Monitor, his Sinestro Corps key gets its Attack Potency from scaling to its durability, even though there’s no reason for it to do so. On top of that, his durability shouldn’t scale from the Galaxy level explosion anyways, since he was grievously wounded by it. He also shouldn’t be able to backscale to Multi-Solar System level, since he was damaged by the Guardians of the Universe, all of whom are Solar System level. So I would suggest either removing the key entirely, or downgrading him to Solar System level for fighting and taking hits from the Green Lanterns.

His Post-Flashpoint key should also just be Universe level+ as opposed to ‘At least Universe level+, likely higher,’ because the scans on his profile just point to him being baseline Low 2-C.

TL;DR

• Darkseid War becomes an entirely separate key for Darkseid.
• Anti-Monitor’s Sinestro Corps War key is either removed or downgraded to 4-B.
• New 52 Anti-Monitor and Darkseid War Darkseid become baseline Low 2-C.

 

[joshpiece]

Seems pretty straightforward I agree.

 

[Hellbeast]

I wouldn't call it during Darkseid War but I would reword it

Darkseid was noted as having consumed universes to prepare for that battle so I feel it'd be a higher with preparation deal

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

I agree

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

As for Anti-Monitor, his Sinestro Corps key gets its Attack Potency from scaling to its durability, even though there’s no reason for it to do so. On top of that, his durability shouldn’t scale from the Galaxy level explosion anyways, since he was grievously wounded by it. So I would suggest either removing the key entirely, or downgrading him to Solar System level for fighting and taking hits from the Green Lanterns.

Wasn't Anti-Monitor already weakened when he was hurt by the 3-C explosion

 

[LordTracer]

Iirc, yes, but that doesn’t really change anything.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I mean... being weakened and surviving a 3-C explosion, albeit with heavy injury, would imply that he would be able to survive it under normal circumstances, right? I could see him maybe downscaling to 4-A, but I don't see any reason to downgrade his durability all the way down to 4-B.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean... being weakened and surviving a 3-C explosion, albeit with heavy injury, would imply that he would be able to survive it under normal circumstances, right?

It means he could survive it, yes, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he can withstand it. Those are two very different things.

Maybe he could have ‘Solar System level, possibly higher,’ as his durability, but I think scaling his durability to an explosion that basically shredded him is iffy.

 

[Firestorm808]

Considering the large gap between 4-A and 3-C, I think 4-A should suffice.

 

[LordTracer]

I think 4-A is still too generous considering how much damage he took. Like, the majority of his armor was completely shredded, that’d be like scaling someone’s durability to taking an explosion that ripped off their skin.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I think 4-A is still too generous considering how much damage he took. Like, the majority of his armor was completely shredded, that’d be like scaling someone’s durability to taking an explosion that ripped off their skin.

You know the skin is really weak compared to the rest of the body though, right

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I'm sure no one (except ion tier) could hurt mobius in the SW, even in the darkest night the combined attack of all the lanterns corps did nothing to him iirc

 

[LordTracer]

You know the skin is really weak compared to the rest of the body though, right

That doesn’t change my point though, your dura wouldn’t scale to an attack that can shred off all of your skin.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

That's why it's downscaling into 4-A and not scaling directly to 3-C.

 

[LordTracer]

That's why it's downscaling into 4-A and not scaling directly to 3-C.

That’s still technically scaling to the explosion, which is what I have an issue with. Anti-Monitor downscaling to 4-A would imply that he’s only slightly weaker than the explosion when he very clearly isn’t. And you don’t get to downscale from things that horribly wound you, that’s not how it works

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

That’s still technically scaling to the explosion, which is what I have an issue with. Anti-Monitor downscaling to 4-A would imply that he’s only slightly weaker than the explosion when he very clearly isn’t. And you don’t get to downscale from things that horribly wound you, that’s not how it works

4-Bs don't survive galaxy-wiping explosions, trace.

And are you not aware of how cosmically massive the gap between 4-A and 3-C is.

 

[LordTracer]

4-Bs don't survive galaxy-wiping explosions, trace.

And are you not aware of how cosmically massive the gap between 4-A and 3-C is.

I am aware of it, however, you do not scale to things that badly damage you. Let me ask you this, if someone punches a hole clean through your body, but you survive, does your durability scale to that now?

Also if you look at Darkseid’s profile, there is a scan of him KOing Post-Crisis Superman. Superman is 4-B. Darkseid is 2-B, but Superman survived. I can also think of a couple of examples of Hal Jordan, another 4-B, surviving attacks from 2-Cs to 2-As. So your argument of a 4-B AM being unable to survive a 3-C explosion is faulty.

And that’s aside from the fact that surviving with grievous injuries would be more of a stamina thing as opposed to durability.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

That is an entirely false equivalence.

Anti-Monitor didn't have a hole punched through him, he had an outer layer of his body damaged while the rest was completely unharmed, DESPITE being in contact with that explosion.

Also, comparing an explosion to sentient beings that are capable of holding back and weakening themselves is absolutely ridiculous as well. Your argument is the faulty one here.

 

[LordTracer]

Also gonna add that the Anti-Monitor’s armor got damaged by the Guardians, a group of 4-Bs, on two separate occasions, so... And beneath his armor, he’s just energy, so no duh he didn’t die from an explosion. He also didn’t die from Superboy-Prime beating the snot out of him, so like

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Alright? I agree with all that. If you had opened with it that would have made me agree with you from the get-go.

Or maybe you did and I'm just stupid, and if that's the case, I apologize.

 

[LordTracer]

Alright? I agree with all that. If you had opened with it that would have made me agree with you from the get-go.

Or maybe you did and I'm just stupid, and if that's the case, I apologize.

Nah you’re fine, I’m the stupid one for not bringing that up earlier lol.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[Lodestar]

I agree.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should scale the Anti-Monitor to "At least 4-A" or 3-C from the explosion, and consider 4-B characters harming him as standard Marvel and DC Comics "everybody can fight everybody" powerscaling inconsistency.

The other suggestions seem fine to me.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Shouldn’t The New 52 Anti-Monitor still have possibly higher via cracking the fabric of the multiverse

 

[LordTracer]

I think that we should scale the Anti-Monitor to "At least 4-A" or 3-C from the explosion, and consider 4-B characters harming him as standard Marvel and DC Comics "everybody can fight everybody" powerscaling inconsistency.

The other suggestions seem fine to me.

Why would he get 4-A/3-C from an explosion that almost completely shredded his armor though? Just surviving doesn’t mean his durability should scale, because like I said before, he also survived Superboy-Prime (a 2-C) beating him down. And if we take a look at the Durability page, it says:

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a measure of stamina.

The definition of withstand is: “remain undamaged or unaffected by; resist,” which is definitely not what Anti-Monitor did in this case. There was also another point in the comic where a random Green Lantern staggering Anti-Monitor, which shouldn’t have been remotely possible if he had 4-A or 3-C durability. The fact that he survived should be noted in his Stamina, but definitely not his Durability.

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't SBP kill the Anti-Monitor's physical body in a single blow?

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, "everybody can fight everybody, regardless if it makes any sense or not" is one of the most fundamental principles of Marvel and DC Comics stories, but surviving a galaxy-level explosion with comparatively minor injuries is an explicit feat that we can use to scale from.

Characters within the same tiers can also generally cause serious damage to each other even in more rational fictions.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I think that separating Darkseid's profile page into eras, as we currently do, seems best.

 

[LordTracer]

Didn't SBP kill the Anti-Monitor's physical body in a single blow?

Nope, Superboy-Prime landed several blows on his energy form (his physical body had already been mostly annihilated by the Galaxy level bomb) before throwing him away.

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, "everybody can fight everybody, regardless if it makes any sense or not" is one of the most fundamental principles of Marvel and DC Comics stories, but surviving a galaxy-level explosion with comparatively minor injuries is an explicit feat that we can use to scale from.

This is not what I’d call “relatively minor injuries,” his armor is completely shredded. His face and most of his torso are completely gone, with only his waist, shoulders arms and some of his legs still being intact, and even those are damaged. In comparison, when the bomb went off, his armor was still intact aside from some minor damage.

It seems far more logical to scale Anti-Monitor to the Green Lanterns than to scale him to an explosion that completely mutilated him, just because he survived it. It becomes even more logical when you consider that beneath his armor, AM is an energy being that can apparently survive hits from a 2-C.

Characters within the same tiers can also generally cause serious damage to each other even in more rational fictions.

This is true, however, they don’t typically shred a massive portion of their opponent’s skin and completely ripping their face off if they’re comparable. The Galaxy level bomb is very clearly superior to Anti-Monitor, he took way too much damage to be allowed to scale.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that "At least 4-A" or 4-A+ would be the most suitable tier in that case.

 

[LordTracer]

But why, when his armor was badly damaged by it? If his armor was 4-A+, then it would’ve still been mostly intact. It wouldn’t have been obliterated with only shoulders, arms, waist and legs remaining.

And his energy form surviving can’t be used either when it also survived Superboy-Prime beating it, so it either has 2-C durability or (the more logical idea imo) it can tank things far above its actual durability because
A. It’s energy
B. Endurance/stamina

 

[LordTracer]

Btw if Darkseid and Anti-Monitor’s pages could be unlocked, I can apply the changes that have been agreed upon so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Surviving an above minimum level 3-C explosion point blank and being able to move fine afterwards is at least almost of that level, yes.

And I still think that keeping Darkseid War Darkseid in the current Post-Flashpoint statistics key seems to fit best with the pattern in the rest of his profile page.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[Lodestar]

Also, I think that separating Darkseid's profile page into eras, as we currently do, seems best.

I agree with you. It will make a profile more structured than before. especially in case like DC or Marvel.

 

[Antvasima]

We already separate Darkseid's profile page into eras, along with his godhead. Please check for yourself.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I mean if the Guardians of the Universe are 4-B based off of massively upscaling from Green Lanterns, couldn't we just scale them to 4-A off of hurting SC Anti-Monitor?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe. It depends whether or not it would be consistent for them.