Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa I personally think it's through charging seeing as the ED is hardly ever stationary during its fight and when it is there are no blocks for it to destroy.

You can drop sand on ED when it's stationary and they'd be destroyed.

It's not due to charging.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

It's game mechanics because it literally just deletes them indescriminantly. They had to make a way for him to pass through objects since the programmer admitted his collision doesn't work. That's not an intended feature, that's a gameplay mechanic.

That and the fact that the calc puts him in an impossible gameplay scenario to get the literal highest value possible for his AP. Definitely not accurate.

 

[GyroNutz]

You can? I'll need to go and retest that then

 

[GyroNutz]

It's game mechanics because it literally just deletes them indescriminantly. They had to make a way for him to pass through objects since the programmer admitted his collision doesn't work. That's not an intended feature, that's a gameplay mechanic.

That and the fact that the calc puts him in an impossible gameplay scenario to get the literal highest value possible for his AP. Definitely not accurate.

The programmer's collision doesn't work so instead he intended it to destroy the blocks in its path. Just because something isn't the author's original idea doesn't mean it's less or non canon.

I actually agree with the second part, even though I agree with the premise, the calc is pretty wanked

 

[Antvasima]

Hierophant does make a good point about the calculation likely being exaggerated.

 

[Agnaa]

Actually the current value used is low. The 7-C result is old and uses the vaporization value of steel. Iron has a higher energy requirement and, using the same volume, gave Saikou a Low 7-B result.

Using a more conservative estimate of the volume destroyed (assuming it goes directly downwards, destroying 14x16, rather than destroying its entire volume of 14x16x8) gives a result of High 7-C with iron, and Low 7-C with steel.

 

[Bowser-us]

Simply put, the supposed "feat" actually qualifies as game mechanics. Since the other calculations are reverse-engineered from that calculation, we have Polar bears and Diamond Swords being listed as being able to obliterate buildings as a basic attack. Thus, why I was incredulous.

Minecraft bedrock edition - Wither dash-1

What about this? it is more like a feat, since the player can summon the Wither anywhere

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why do we assume vaporization tho? Ther is no vapor or statements.

 

[Jinsye]

Destroys water and leaves nothing left

 

[Davidgumazon]

...

I'd vote for Iron instead of Steel because the Crafting Table technically demonstrate that Iron was transmutated into Steel (based on crafting Flint and Steel from Iron)

PS. I think they're physically same or mixed or comepletely different. But you can choose one of all the three because of it still make sense either way.

Bonus:


Miecraft Wither boss can break obsidian!-0

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Destroys water and leaves nothing left

That isn't really a good reason at all tough. Even if you assume vater was vaporized, that doesn't mean all material gets vaporized. And as far as I remember there is and explosion and the breaking special effect aplies to when it destroys stuff like rocks, so it is even worse.

 

[DMB_1]

Water getting vaporized can be seen in the Nether, and it has a very different animation. Besides, just because it vaporizes water, it doesn't mean it also vaporizes to every other block.

But I digress

Also, why does the Ender Dragon have resistance to Void Manipulation, if he never goes to the area in which the void is actually able to kill you?

 

[Jinsye]

@Ricsi There isn't an effect that the blocks leave behind when the dragon rams through them.

I'm too tired to argue anymore rn see ya in a few hours.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Vaporization is completely different from what is seen tough.

It really isn't something you can assume for it, specially with the furst comment on the calc pointing out that vaping water=/=waping all materials.

 

[Antvasima]

Due to limited available time, I will have to unsubscribe to this thread now. You can send me a message when you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Idazmi]

It's game mechanics because it literally just deletes them indescriminantly. They had to make a way for him to pass through objects since the programmer admitted his collision doesn't work. That's not an intended feature, that's a gameplay mechanic.

Exactly. It's not an attack, it's not a defense: it's a workaround.

In addition, the effect the Ender Dragon's ability generates is not how physics generally works in Minecraft itself. In fact, it straight up contradicts them:

1. If you place water in the Nether using a bucket, it instantly evaporates, producing visible steam and a hissing sound, and leaving you with an empty bucket. By contrast, the Ender Dragon makes water simply stop existing: there's no steam, no hissing sound... in fact there's no sound at all. The water just isn't there anymore.

2. All kinds of blocks - except the utterly invincible blocks - are fragmented and partially vaporized in a radius when destroyed by any sort of explosion, depending on their blast resistance. Even the Wither's obsidian-breaking attacks follow this standard. The Ender Dragon just ignores it: the blocks it contacts - and only what it physically contacts - simply stop existing, instantly and totally, regardless of their blast resistance. No shockwaves, no fragments, no debris.

The blocks aren't being destroyed: they are being "poofed" into utter nonexistence with nothing to signify their prior existence. Even Thanos' snap left more residue.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I guess every developer who makes their characters invincible are giving them high 3-A durability. Carnax and Yaldabaoth come to mind.

 

[Idazmi]

I guess every developer who makes their characters invincible are giving them high 3-A durability. Carnax and Yaldabaoth come to mind.

My point was that the Ender Dragon's passive block deleting isn't applicable to it's AP.

 

[Davidgumazon]

Hmm... I'm going to scrutinize this debate again... (for people who knows my cringey things I did in the past) prepare for my bombing again. (BTW I'm not going to use my diamond sword again cuz I learned my mistakes from the past on vsbattle Minecraft) Instead I will display some other stuff related to that so everyone could compare them.

Everyone(not but almost? I dunno, I can't find a right word) knows I would compare a lot of stuffs this and that (from my experience on vsbattle Minecraft page) if "Ender Dragon's ctrl+delete" would work on combination of Minecraft and Reality's physics.

I will express my opinion about "Should the Ender Dragon ctrl+delete be gamemechanics or not?" debate. Also there's too many variables thus it'd take me a lot of time to finish my argument if the stuff would work on other logics be consistent.

From what I've seen on this debate, both sides has reasons (would work either way, because it depends on beliefs) but I think some people missed some stuffs if you only do MC vs IRL...

Seriously people how do you define "gamemechanics" and I think everyone has own definition of "gamemechanics" depends on how they knew and played the other games, and how they take it at face value? Maybe this is symptoms of horrible implication about lore of game and gameplay xD maybe a sugar cane therapy(cocaine) would work LMAO (hey it's not an insult, it's just bad/lame joke)

(Well ever since I'm silent on vsbattle Minecraft before I've began arguing someone about Creative mode on other site(not wikia) because vsbattle wikia doesn't allow Creative stuff hence I shrugged and make a debate on other site that would allow about Creative(because as far as I know not everyone would agree the idea that Creative mode is gamemechanics, I've seen this kind of debate on reddit, youtube and other sites, both sides were fierce, hence there's neutrality on using creative mode on versus debate communities)

 

[Therefir]

I mean, even if it was applicable, the calc has several mistakes as well, like assuming the Ender Dragon can vaporize iron blocks just because she can destroy water without leaving trace.

And water having a different animation when it's actually vaporized is a good point against the Ender Dragon being able to vaporize water.

Also, since the Ender Dragon can destroy things without moving, this would confirm that she has some kind of aura around her, and we would have to calculate Steve's durability separately, as he would only be taking a small part of that aura.

 

[Davidgumazon]

-snip-

Re-calc? I'd agree but depends on the calc if the new calc is viable enough(though their dura would be remained unaffected because all of the arguments on this debate so far only about AP, also why unaffected? Player/Steve can survive Spawn Explosion from Wither and both Savager, Iron Golem, Ender Dragon and Wither were enough to scaled into similar level, and probably they can't one shot each other, top tier enchantments could farm Ender Dragon/Wither like it was some pro business). @Agnaa has made a counter-point to the Ender Dragon's AP but minor and good one imo. However the new interaction of Ender Dragon is more complicated now because it became curve on the corners ever since the update, so Saikou's blog and the OP were based on primary canon, I couldn't consider them one of them is oldest because both of them were old.

Animation? It's more like interaction rather than animation. Because the animation is very simple, it became complicated when using/adding other things to it (I've noticed it ever since I had argument about bedrock in the past leaving me almost no solution but thanks to the debate of some people from youtube I've reached a conclusion and unfortunately I haven't wrote my conclusion privately probably because I don't have time for it... well screw me).

I going for not-one-sided but from gameplay the player can't place blocks on occupied area by entities, though the falling blocks has gamemechanics cuz it doesn't interact with the Ender Dragon being a glitch until it become a normal blocks but probably destroyed instantly when contacted. The Ender Dragon commonly destroy anything destructible or not came from End world nor made in the End nor being End materials(that's how it work as intended). So if we use your logic about "its aura", it'll probably affect the logic about how entities interacts with the void because of it works similarly to each other as they've resistance, but the void is greater in terms of EE but less damage compared to Ender Dragon, and in contrary of your logic it will be like comparing the Ender Dragon's charge to Wither's dash which is the Wither has greater damage to entities but lower to blocks and then the Ender Dragon is inverse of Wither(greater damage to blocks but lower to entities), and the obsidian is obviously self-explanatory. And then there's this arguments about "Ender Dragon's vaporization was a work as intended feature vs logically doesn't work feature vs Ender Dragon's ctrl+delete hax isn't gamemechanics so they have resistance". xD Now you'd starting to see the new problem. Which one is gamemechanics? LMAO both(jk).

Also I would argue @Idazmi when he said about strengths/hardness and blast resistance because of that kind of stuff I have a trouble to the certain guy in the past about bedrock.

Void can instantly kill them w/o resistance just like blocks, projectiles and falling blocks, because it was killed just like projectiles, however there are entities have resistance to it but it wouldn't last long. The damage is work as intended not to kill you instantly and that means they've resistance, however the Ender Dragon showed immune to it which is why it have void manipulation to the profile. Also there's nothing physically different from blocks and entities in real life though, and then there's Magma creams were deleted in the void, the Magma block is made of the Magma cream is made of the Magma Cube. MC-128364, MC-87878, MC-16770, MC-96352, MC-96254.

So that's just treated as an outlier? Because said creatures can be killed by attacks much weaker than 7-C.

Nah, bosses they were just proximately durable as Steve diamond tier w/o enchantments, the AP is just lower than their Durability which is why they can't one shot each other probably, however top tier enchantments would farm Ender Dragon/Wither like it was some pro business, and by default End-game Steve defeated Ender Dragon twice and Four times to Wither because he needed to respawn the Ender Dragon based on the lore of the game itself.

Also when the obsidian calc would exist?

(If no one. This is my attempt below)

First Alternative from this video:


Minecraft Blow Up Obsidian w TNT!

Second Alternative on the wikia: it would take 71.25 times the explosive power of TNT to destroy a block of obsidian, and I get 215250000000 * 71.25 = 15336562500000 (Still 7-C)

If you're interested about Notch originally planned:


Notch's ORIGINAL "To Do" List for Minecraft?!

 

[GyroNutz]

I've actually called how much energy it takes to blow up Obsidian before

 

[Idazmi]

-snip-

Non Sequitur - you are distracting from the argument with a massive amount of irrelevant data. Yes, I read all of your comment: my point was that block hardness doesn't matter to the Ender Dragon. Explosion physics don't either:


Minecraft- Charged creeper explosio

That's an explosion in Minecraft. There is a shockwave, dust, debris (you can see fence posts and sand blocks scattered around), and an asymmetrical crater.


Why Ender Dragons don't spawn in the main world

That is the Ender Dragon flying through terrain, making blocks disappear as she goes. This ability is rated as a 7-C attack based on two false assertions:

1. The Ender Dragon is vaporizing the blocks. I won't mince words: she is not vaporizing anything. There's no vapor, and Mincraft can and does simulate vapor when it needs to, so you can't say it's a programming limitation.

2. The Ender Dragon can control this ability, like a weapon. She can't: any blocks that touch her - from any angle - simply go away. It doesn't matter how they touch her: they vanish on contact regardless.

The discrepancy between these two effects is the only thing that you need to explain, and anything in your comment that doesn't try to explain this is diversionary tactics and bafflegab. Why? Because all of the current Minecraft APs are based on the Ender Dragon as a baseline. In short, everything that can harm the Ender Dragon at all is being listed as having the power of a nuclear weapon, because someone decided that Hax is a 7-C attack.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@Idazmi I think most reasonable people are in agreement that the calc makes too many unfair assumptions. What is then the next best thing to scale the ED to?

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi I think most reasonable people are in agreement that the calc makes too many unfair assumptions. What is then the next best thing to scale the ED to?

That question assumes that the ability can be scaled to something in the first place. The Ender Dragon passes through almost any terrain with no resistance, as if by intangibility, while leaving nothing behind as it passes. Only Obsidia and End Stone are exempted from this. Contrary to the theories that Obsidian survives the Ender Dragon through sheer durability, end stone is no tougher than ordinary stone.

I said before that the block deleting thing should be considered an odd property of the Ender Dragon's existence as an extra-dimensional creature from The End. End Stone is from the Ender Dragon's native dimension, and Obsidian is known to have magical properties in Minecraft - it's used to craft Enchanting Tables, Nether Portals, Ender Chests and Beacons, all of which have unique supernatural properties, like bridging different dimensions, or projecting magical effects in a radius.

It is my guess that Obsidian's supernatural properties just make it exempt from disappearing when the Ender Dragon touches it. Why that also applies to animals, weapons, and such can be chalked up as necessity: it would be hard to fight the Ender Dragon if your arrows just "poofed away" as you shoot it.

The simpler, though admittedly lazier option, is to chalk the whole thing up to Game Mechanics, which would make sense because Notch outright said he only programmed the Ender Dragon to do this because he's bad at programming it's hitboxes. Otherwise, the darned thing couldn't navigate without glitching itself.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I meant the Ender Dragon, not the ability.

 

[Idazmi]

I meant the Ender Dragon, not the ability.

I see. You could probably scale her to The Player themselves. The problem there is that all of the current profiles are scaled from the Ender Dragon. I had already suggested some changes to the AP profiles, and I'll repost my suggestions for the Player here:

The Current key dividers: 9-A | 8-C | 7-C

My suggested changes: 9-B | 9-A | 8-C

I suggested this because - as far as I can tell - the Player's basic abilities without any armor or weapons indicate a tier equal or close to 9-B at base. He can easily break down oak wood doors with his hands, and - with substantial difficulty - can manage to punch a Polar Bear to death.

Early game armor (Iron Armor is available quite early on) allows the player to barely survive a crate of TNT exploding in their face - I'd put that around small building level durability. Mid game armor typically has mild to moderate enchantments, allowing the player to survive more of the same, but not enough to justify a whole tier change.

End game armor and weapons allow the player to casually survive attacks that are seen leveling small buildings and destroying several meters of solid rock in-game. With Regenerationn, they can survive enough firepower over time to level a town - not all at once. This is the point where the player can be expected to reliably defeat the Ender Dragon.

 

[GyroNutz]

TNT is Building level, pretty sure.

 

[Jinsye]

There's this blog which nets us quite a few values actually

 

[Jinsye]

Also the weakest enemy in the game has a o-A feat so no downgrading to 9-B

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Outliers exist, and what is said feat @Edward?

 

[Jinsye]

Silverfish can instantly violently shatter full 1 m^3 of stone.

Considering most of the 9-B feats are reasonably casual it isnt an outlier methinks

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Isn't that because they're inside said stone? Causing faults and then separating it isn't the same as punching it till it breaks.

 

[Jinsye]

How is that relevant? It has the same v. Frag animation of literally every other piece of stone. It doesnt show a fragmentation of faults or abything

 

[Idazmi]

There's this blog which nets us quite a few values actually

That blog is by the same person who wants the Ender Dragon's block deletion to be seen as a 7-C attack. I question the objectivity of his calculations. In addition, a Silverfish being able to fragment a stone that it has burrowed into is not the same as straight up shattering a block from outside. Silverfish cannot do the latter.

 

[Jinsye]

Intention doesnt matter, the question is if the math is correct. You never debunked the math.

What even is the difference between destroying something from the outside and inside? It's not like stone is super weak on the inside

 

[Jinsye]

Also 8-C comes from withstanding the heat of the nether which Skeletons can do just fine, that's not getting downgraded

EDIT: And Silverfish aren't torn apart when the Player breaks the stone blocks so that's an even bigger plus.

 

[Nico-v11]

Edward makes sense to me a lot there.

 

[Davidgumazon]

@Edwardtruong2006 I think the in-game interpretations were abused too much on this thread this time. Also now I seems to understand more about keys as to why the two keys were 9-A and 8-C.

The early-game would be first spawned Steve with no equipment which is we can't compare his base to mid-tier mobs because of inconsistency and contradictory to in-universe which is why @Saikou's said more makes sense, and mid-tier key of Steve w/ iron tier equipments he could normally fight the mobs on the same level, like the AP of Magma Cube was hot enough to be able to hurt Steve 8-C.

(and he can't travel to the Nether doesn't matter when the implication completely make sense, however as opposition to that logic, in Minecraft you could just use iron buckets lava and water in order to create the portal and it wasn't that hard at all)

7-C was different story in this case which is based on different scaling compared to the former, because logically his equipment tier level infer that he traveled the End and beyond, and people keeps comparing this end-key to other two keys which is very inconsistent. We can see Steve's armors were overpowered as they exponentially increase but there's too many assumptions going on here because of "what if" and probably ignore the point of the profile's keys hence being contentious.

On other hand they claimed the calc make a mistakes, and apparently not thoroughly everything though, also circular reasoning: their logics were mixed up gauging Ender Dragon's AP to TNT's AP whilst making an argument about Ender Dragon's DC but EE and then when all alternatives failed they back to square one claiming it was WoG however that doesn't weight anything and then argue again why and when Ender Dragon's DC is that and this AP and then repeat.

I don't see where their point going, re-reading it again I could see the abused of in-game interpretations whilst comprising it with logic of reality which will twist the interpretation of in-universe and for keys: the comparison of tiering.

Idzami seems want to change those keys however his suggestions doesn't make any sense and some of points on his claims about the comparison between Ender Dragon's DC and Block's in-game mechanics were flawed-

(what's worse is appending his arguments with TNT and the Interpretation of the gameplay, and that would be inferring @Idzami don't quite get the @Saikou's point yet, and also when I said this time that "doesn't make any sense" in this case was figure of speech and probably this response directed at @Idzami, first @Idzami don't assumed or think I don't understand those "fundamentals of Minecraft" (hardness and resistance, as just as I said before, because of that kind of stuff I have a trouble to the certain guy in the past about bedrock. I know where that conversation going) cuz I actually quietly know those stuffs which is why I'm always make myself a tool of opposition and made an arguments about Player's 2-C and Speed reaction and etc. but oof my efforts were meaningless, cringey and immature, and at the end of result I make the debate "lively" that good old wikia days (apparently no one cares xD), anyways back on the right track)

-due to lack of interaction on this case was similar to that abused interpretation about Enderman and the AI like the "Enderman's auto-dodge ability due to AI gamemechanics so it's subsonic based on user-implemented or an assumption about interpretation of in-universe Enderman still needed to dodge like in human intelligence level on the game (basically using the logic of reality whilst comprised of game interpretation) which doesn't make any sense in video game (and completely ignore the hitbox) in order to prove they dodge by teleportation" when people started to argue about downgrading the speed, they used lightning to justify their arguments which doesn't make sense because the lightning was literally instantaneous gamemechanic with no viable animation just like projectiles (also Ghast's fireball has similar problem) because of the lightning animation it was fundamentally the same as experience orb entities.

(I'm saying it as an example as a similar situation to this thread)

And this time downgrading the end-key and upgrading early-key, and the debate about WoG vs Update, and Gameplay, Gamemechanics, and the Interpretations of Keys and Ender Dragon were messed up.

@Idazmi Hey you heard me? Probably okay, alright, anything that stated above was in my opinion. So not going to reply back at your argument yet, need some time, don't be hasty.

 

[Davidgumazon]

Also trying to use some physics talk to justify why a destructive feat is invalid in fiction which commonly ignores physics isn't the best argument.

NANI?! This is why I get a lot of troubles from the past, I simply don't know, wtf?!