Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Therefir By that logic, nothing in the game should be beyond 9-B because even "the weakest being" can take hits from the top tiers in gameplay. Emphasis on "in gameplay".

Also they're not "immune". All entities take damage from the dragon, they just don't get completely destroyed like the blocks.

 

[Idazmi]

Except that's not how we treat it here. MC still has a narrative, even with how thin it is. There is still an in-universe universe. It's still fiction. Structures and characters have lore that goes beyond the gameplay. Stuff exists for a reason. It's not 100% game, otherwise it wouldn't have profiles here.

So what does the narrative say about the Ender Dragon's ability? Literally nothing, leaving only the game's logic to work with.

Yes, the Wither explodes and then go after the players. That's not a proof of wanting to destroy every block in the world. Seriously go actual test the Wither itself/look it up. It doesn't act like you describe it does. It only destroys blocks: 1. When spawning 2. When attacking 3. When being attacked 4. Randomly when it shoots blue skulls.

That's another strawman argument: I never said the Wither "wants to destroy every block in the world". I specifically said it wants to kill LIVING THINGS.

Lets put it like this: there's a spider that the Wither wants to kill. There's a thick stone wall between the Wither and the Spider. So, given it's ability to outperform the Ender Dragon, why doesn't it casually fly through the stone wall to get at it instead of gradually chipping away at the wall? Is it just feeling lazy today?

 

[Jinsye]

Maybe because the Wither doesn't have the same powers as the Ender Dragon. It has the same AP but it doesn't have the same moveset where it charges at you face-first.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You don't need a specific narrative to discuss in-universe logic. And your interpretation doesn't make any sense in-universe, only from a gameplay perspective.

It wants to destroy the wall between it and the spider, not destroy every walls using 7-C attacks. And again, AoE fallacy. The Wither doesn't have to have the same DC or abilities than the dragon to have the same AP.

 

[Therefir]

So that's just treated as an outlier? Because said creatures can be killed by attacks much weaker than 7-C.

If that's case, then why Steve scaling from the dragon is not treated as an outlier too?

 

[Jinsye]

Because Steve is at his absolute maximum power with full enchantments and potions and all?

He also can consistently fight other 7-C beings too at his maximum power?

 

[Therefir]

@Edwardtruong2006 That's not what I mean, for example, is he immune to the explosion of a charged Creeper at his maximum power?

 

[Idazmi]

You don't need a specific narrative to discuss in-universe logic. And your interpretation doesn't make any sense in-universe, only from a gameplay perspective.

It wants to destroy the wall between it and the spider, not destroy every walls using 7-C attacks. And again, AoE fallacy. The Wither doesn't have to have the same DC or abilities than the dragon to have the same AP.

I'm not claiming any AOE: the Ender Dragon doesn't have any AOE at all. It does, however, have the ability to go through the wall as if it was thin air and kill that spider. Which the Wither doesn't possess, despite currently having the same 7-C tier as the Ender Dragon.

That's because the Ender Dragon's ability to pass through walls is HAX, not applicable to AP.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's still DC. And not AP. We're claiming they're similar in AP and not DC.

 

[Jinsye]

@Refir Haven't tested it myself but I presume you can with Blast Protection and stuff.

@Idzami You seem very persistent on claiming the Ender Dragon destroying things that are specifically blocks and not any other non-living thing is hax and not AP. Your evidence being in that the Wither doesn't have the same AOE destruction as the Ender Dragon.

That's not sufficient evidence, Wither gets their 7-C rating through powerscaling. Plus they can also destroy stuff that's immune to the Ender Dragon's attacks. They have clear-cut 7-C scaling and feats, you don't need them to be a carbon clone of the thing they're power scaled to.

 

[Idazmi]

It's still DC. And not AP. We're claiming they're similar in AP and not DC.

Really? How interesting. What if I told you that the Ender Dragon is the only object in Minecraft that can effortlessly pass through solid blocks? As in, regardless of AP or DC, Steve, the Wither, and all other entities in the same are incapable of even slightly approaching the Ender Dragon's ability to destroy matter. Wouldn't that imply that this is somehow unique to the Ender Dragon?

 

[Idazmi]

@Refir Haven't tested it myself but I presume you can with Blast Protection and stuff.

@Idzami You seem very persistent on claiming the Ender Dragon destroying things that are specifically blocks and not any other non-living thing is hax and not AP. Your evidence being in that the Wither doesn't have the same AOE destruction as the Ender Dragon.

That's not sufficient evidence, Wither gets their 7-C rating through powerscaling. Plus they can also destroy stuff that's immune to the Ender Dragon's attacks. They have clear-cut 7-C scaling and feats, you don't need them to be a carbon clone of the thing they're power scaled to.

Show me a single 7-C feat from Steve or the Wither that isn't "can hurt the Ender Dragon". Being able to hurt each other doesn't count either, since their AP is currently in dispute, along with the Ender Dragon's.

 

[Therefir]

I also find strange that we treat his diamond equipment as thousands of times stronger than his other equipments, even when it's not like that in-game.

 

[Jinsye]

Wither can destroy obsidian, which is immune to attacks from the Ender Dragon.

What does this even have to do with anything?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Therefir If you believe that everything in Minecraft is comparable to everything, you can go ahead and try to argue for that in another thread. Like Ed said, we tried to argue for it but it got rejected, so...

@Idazmi The dragon destroying the size of its hitbox worth of material = DC. The Wither and Steve capable of destroying blocks the dragon can't: AP. The Dragon destroying more things doesn't make it has higher AP, just that it can apply its AP in a way as to destroy all of those blocks. Again, it's a matter of AoE/DC, not AP. The Wither has already shown the ability to break stuff the dragon can't, which is proof enough to be comparable, if not higher in AP.

 

[Agnaa]

Bumping this.

It seems weird that taking damage from 60 7-C explosions a second for multiple seconds is the same as just surviving one of those explosions, but I guess that's just wiki standards.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean Steve doesn't actually take 60 hits in-game. I'd honestly argue that the dragon is uh just NOT doing 7-C attacks every frame, with that part just being game mechanic. Also while Steve can take individual instances of the charge he won't really survive outright standing in the dragon's field of attack for long, so.

 

[Agnaa]

He doesn't take 60 hits in-game because he has IFrames, same reason why you can't take attacks from 60 mobs 60 times a second; not because they don't actually attack but because of a game mechanic.

Well if it doesn't doing 7-C attacks every frame how's it destroying any block that enters its hitbox instantly? Does it just decide to do 7-C explosions every time something enters its hitbox and do nothing otherwise, even though this is never indicated?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If we agreed that the dragon does this with sheer strength rather than hax or magic, it's probably doing it via, well, charging into stuff and destroying it, given that this ability only really comes up when it's moving and that it attacks entities via charging.

 

[Agnaa]

Wait, doesn't the ability work even if it's standing still? Can't you drop sand onto it while its stationary and have it vaporize that?

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi The dragon destroying the size of its hitbox worth of material = DC. The Wither and Steve capable of destroying blocks the dragon can't: AP. The Dragon destroying more things doesn't make it has higher AP, just that it can apply its AP in a way as to destroy all of those blocks. Again, it's a matter of AoE/DC, not AP. The Wither has already shown the ability to break stuff the dragon can't, which is proof enough to be comparable, if not higher in AP.

Yet, the Wither is incapable of doing the very thing that makes the Ender Dragon 7-C in your eyes. If you had to calculate the power of the Wither alone, or against any other object or creature in all of Minecraft except the Ender Dragon, it would rate nowhere near 7-C. And if Notch had been more skilled as a programmer, the Ender Dragon wouldn't be passing through any blocks at all.

The only way the Wither can handily beat the Ender Dragon the way it does without having a single equivalent feat to "vaporizing" literal tons of material, is if the feat in question is hax. The physics involved (or, more accurately, lack thereof: e.g. no shockwave, no fragmentation, no surviving blocks, no cloud of vapor or dust) STRONGLY imply that to be the case.

 

[Idazmi]

Wait, doesn't the ability work even if it's standing still? Can't you drop sand onto it while its stationary and have it vaporize that?

Yes, you can, and the block disappears on contact.

 

[Agnaa]

In which case it cannot be through sheer strength of charging, there must be some auto-vaporizing aura around it, or it must constantly be releasing 7-C explosions.

 

[Jinsye]

First of all Idazmi, you can't use "oh irl physics" to justify something in a video game like that. Fiction and the laws of physics aren't exactly on speaking terms per say so they don't get along well.

Second of all, stop using that author intention argument. He didn't want the Ender Dragon to destroy everything in her path but due to his lack of coding skill he made it so. Noone in Mojang ever changed this at all and it's treated as a feat of destruction in-verse.

Third of all, again. A character doesn't have to perform an identical feat to be comparable, or else half of the wiki's pages would be 9-B. Most characters get their ratings through powerscaling. The Wither even has a case that it can destroy obsidian, which again the Ender Dragon can't do. That alone should prove comparability.

 

[Idazmi]

In which case it cannot be through sheer strength of charging, there must be some auto-vaporizing aura around it, or it must constantly be releasing 7-C explosions.

Exactly. And it's shown to be an aura that simply deletes whatever it touches: no explosions anywhere.

 

[Jinsye]

Idzami

It's not ******* existence erasure.

That requires too many assumptions.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Saikou seems to make sense.

 

[Davidgumazon]

3. The Player

The Current key dividers: 9-A | 8-C | 7-C

My suggested changes: 9-B | 9-A | 8-C

...

Are this another thing about armor is just armor hence a regular human w/ regular armor can't survive wither status effects won't makes any sense. Though an armor in Minecraft works differently compared to real world, the only difference's it adds to Player's dura, think of it like SAO.

Though 7-C is not gamemechanics. Your video definitely displays Mid-game key is able to endure the 7-C AP however he isn't even in the center of explosion which is why he survived. The Explosion physics in Minecraft works differently than the real world, the rules applied to Minecraft's the explosion damage quickly decreased as far as it goes which is why the explosion radius is inconsistent to reality's logic.

Now about Ender Dragon's deleting stuff, how about Iron Golem vs Ender Dragon? Ender Dragon erased matter and Iron Golem is made of iron but the golem don't die from Ender Dragon base attacks which means Golem has 7-C, also Savager the new mob can create an shockwave from mere base attacks, and this implies they were irregular beings compared to reality, for example Transmutation of Crafting Table is fricking mind blowing hence is why I heard a lot of theories about how Crafting Table works.

With Regenerationn, they can survive enough firepower over time to level a town. Not all at once.

That's their regen. However this works differently with Steve with top tier enchantments.

 

[Davidgumazon]

...

What's DC?

 

[Davidgumazon]

In which case it cannot be through sheer strength of charging, there must be some auto-vaporizing aura around it, or it must constantly be releasing 7-C explosions.

Lmao xD

Maybe there's Ender damage, just like Ender Acid from Ender Dragon's fireball which inflicts ender damage, which is why they constantly releasing that level of damage. Bacause it's Ender... Ender.. ender..................................... What's ender? maybe it refers to the End/home? I dunno what's it official acronym, since there's Endermites and Enderman.

 

[Agnaa]

Lmao xD That's the first the first I heard of it.

Maybe there's Ender damage, just like Ender Acid from Ender Dragon's fireball which inflicts ender damage, which is why they constantly releasing that level of damage. Bacause it's Ender... Ender.. ender..................................... What's ender? maybe it refers to the End/home? I dunno what's it official acronym, since there's Endermites and Enderman.

Maybe it's the first you've heard of it because not many people think of that game mechanic seriously and analyze the implications it has on the Ender Dragon's powers.

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't see why 'auto-vaporising auras' and 'existence erasure with every attack but only for blocks' are the assumptions people are coming to here.

 

[Agnaa]

What other assumption are you supposed to make for "Any time something enters ED's radius it immediately disappears"?

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Idazami seems to make sense to me personally.

The Ender Dragon's insta-delete aura seems to only apply to blocks and nothing else. Because of this I am inclined to believe that it's restricted to environmental destruction, which we can have a seperate AP listing for.

Setting up a ridiculous pre-built scenario where the Ender Dragon deletes a bunch of blocks and then assuming it applies to it's other attacks is unwarranted. Maybe if his other attacks could delete iron blocks like that, but IIRC they cannot.

I also dislike the notion of abusing in-game mechanics by setting up a situation for the Elder Dragon to delete as much blocks as possible and us treating that as AP. In that case, if there are monsters or characters in game programmed to be invincible should we give them High 3-A durability? By @Saikou's logic it's a deliberate mechanic and should deserve to be quantified.

 

[GyroNutz]

Every time the Ender Dragon touches a block, it destroys it.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Basically the entire calc is based off what I would consider a programming quirk or game mechanic, not an actual display of strength or power.

If we accept it then we must also accept high 3-A durability for characters programmed to be invincible in games, which I am heavily against.

 

[Agnaa]

@Hierophant I kind of take issue with that interpretation since the Ender Dragon also damages non-block entities on contact. But I do agree that the constructed situation Saikou set up is way above reasonable; it's a situation that could never happen in normal gameplay (i.e. without cheats).

Every time the Ender Dragon touches a block, it destroys it.

And through what mechanism does it do that?

It can't be through striking it because it doesn't have an animation of that.

It can't be due to already charging since it still destroys blocks on touch when it's stationary.

It has to be some passive aura to work this way.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@Agnaa to be fair it seems like striking but without a definitive animation given. I'm pretty sure there are actually explosion particles though.

I didn't know he damages entities on contact, that's good to know.

 

[GyroNutz]

Basically the entire calc is based off what I would consider a programming quirk or game mechanic, not an actual display of strength or power.

If we accept it then we must also accept high 3-A durability for characters programmed to be invincible in games, which I am heavily against.

Why do you think it's game mechanics? It's very different to your example (and to answer your query, we'd rate an invincible character's durability as their best durability feat to avoid NLF)

 

[GyroNutz]

@Agnaa I personally think it's through charging seeing as the ED is hardly ever stationary during its fight and when it is there are no blocks for it to destroy.