Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Agnaa]

If it has passive environmental destruction around it I wouldn't expect it to stop when it's moving.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Okay what the hell is up with the spam of AoE fallacy here? I'm sorry but it's basic VS Debating that you don't have to bust towns with every attack to be considering town level.

Also nevermind the fact that the ED's charge, the same attack used to make those blocks disappear, is its main attack.

 

[Idazmi]

The Ender Dragon is also capable of doing said feat while it's charging, so it can focus it's energy.

Okay what the hell is up with the spam of AoE fallacy here? I'm sorry but it's basic VS Debating that you don't have to bust towns with every attack to be considering town level.

Also nevermind the fact that the ED's charge, the same attack used to make those blocks disappear, is its main attack.

It doesn't matter if the Ender Dragon charges or not: all non-living and non-obsidian matter it touches disappears regardless of how it was touched.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Dragon ALWAYS charge. In-game, it deals "passive damage" to enemies the same way it removes blocks.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay what the hell is up with the spam of AoE fallacy here? I'm sorry but it's basic VS Debating that you don't have to bust towns with every attack to be considering town level.

Also nevermind the fact that the ED's charge, the same attack used to make those blocks disappear, is its main attack.

It's not AoE fallacy to separate environmental destruction from normal AP.

Of course you don't have to bust towns with every attack to be town level, but you need to have an applicable attack that causes town level damage in the first place.

It doesn't matter if the ED still disappears blocks when moving if it disappears blocks while perfectly stationary. Is it seriously constantly exploding with 25 KiloTons of energy every frame, and is all of this energy able to be channeled into normal attacks?

 

[Idazmi]

The Dragon ALWAYS charge. In-game, it deals "passive damage" to enemies the same way it removes blocks.

The blocks touched by the Ender Dragon don't get damaged: they utterly cease to exist regardless of their other properties, which include varying resistance to damage. Also, the Ender Dragon does more than just charge.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Is it seriously constantly exploding with 25 KiloTons of energy every frame, and is all of this energy able to be channeled into normal attacks?"

Like I said in almost two posts in a row, it might as well be. No matter whether it's charging or not, it deals damage to things it touches and removes the blocks. It's the same attack.

 

[Jinsye]

Idzami, we've addressed this before.

The Ender Dragon does NOT have Existence Erasure

 

[Agnaa]

"Is it seriously constantly exploding with 25 KiloTons of energy every frame, and is all of this energy able to be channeled into normal attacks?"

Like I said in almost two posts in a row, it might as well be. No matter whether it's charging or not, it deals damage to things it touches and removes the blocks. It's the same attack.

Yes but it's not dealing 7-C energy to each of those targets. You don't give the entire rating of the explosion to someone only tanking a fraction of it.

 

[Idazmi]

"Is it seriously constantly exploding with 25 KiloTons of energy every frame, and is all of this energy able to be channeled into normal attacks?"

Like I said in almost two posts in a row, it might as well be. No matter whether it's charging or not, it deals damage to things it touches and removes the blocks. It's the same attack.

Nope. When it touches living creatures, shoots them with fireballs, or breathes acid on it's enemies, the killed leave things behind. When it touches blocks, they simply stop existing immediately. That's not the same thing.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Idazmi The Creeper vaporizes a portion of the block it destroys, yet only damages enemies. I guess this means the Creeper doesn't actually damage people with its explosions. Steve is obviously more durable than rocks laying around.

@Agnaa You still scale the explosion to people taking the brunt of it. And the Dragon directly charges the player with the same attack numerous times.

Nevermind the fact that Environmental Destruction is only used when a single spell/move does non-combat things and the character doesn't use any similar abilities at all in combat. Which is not the case here, because assuming the same dragon that uses a variety of magical abilities would have a wave of destruction around it that is hundreds of time stronger than itself without being able to use it offensively is dumb.

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi The Creeper vaporizes a portion of the block it destroys, yet only damages enemies. I guess this means the Creeper doesn't actually damage people with its explosions. Steve is obviously more durable than rocks laying around.

An explosion vaporizing a portion of what it effects is not the same as all matter simply ceasing to exist on contact.

Nevermind the fact that Environmental Destruction is only used when a single spell/move does non-combat things and the character doesn't use any similar abilities at all in combat. Which is not the case here, because assuming the same dragon that uses a variety of magical abilities would have a wave of destruction around it that is hundreds of time stronger than itself without being able to use it offensively is dumb.

Well guess what? That's exactly what's happening: it's making the environment simply not be on touch contact, as a passive effect of it's mere existence. Meanwhile, it's attacks do nothing similar at all.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not the same, but the logic is similar. If Steve wasn't more durable than the blocks the Creeper destroys it would just be vaporized as well instead of just taking the damage. The same logic happens here. Steve >>> a block in term of dura.

Except they do. Steve and any other enemy eat shit when they're close to the dragon, except they don't get completely destroyed due to simply being more durable. Same as bove.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa You still scale the explosion to people taking the brunt of it. And the Dragon directly charges the player with the same attack numerous times.

Nevermind the fact that Environmental Destruction is only used when a single spell/move does non-combat things and the character doesn't use any similar abilities at all in combat. Which is not the case here, because assuming the same dragon that uses a variety of magical abilities would have a wave of destruction around it that is hundreds of time stronger than itself without being able to use it offensively is dumb.

Can the player really get to the center of the destruction from it? Isn't the hitbox physically in the way? Although I do agree that the downgrade wouldn't be very big.

The dragon doesn't have other similar abilities that nope blocks away, right? But even then I'm not sure if the "Ender Dragon can use that ability for other attacks" is consistently applied, it seems weird that, if you're assuming the dragon can use the energy for other attacks, it can only use one frame's worth of energy in an attack. I haven't read the threads, but have people consistently applied "Ender Dragon detonates a 7-C+ explosion 60 times every second" in threads?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'd argue that a difference of a meter or so doesn't matter at all. Also it's technically possible to go in the center of the hitbox but y'know.

It doesn't matter whether or not the dragon can do the exact same thing. As long as it's not hax (which is probably isn't here), its magical attacks (If we assume the charge even is magic and not just sheer strength) shouldn't vary in power this much, especially when comparing attacks meant to kill. A mage using magic to kill someone should use similar amount of energy than, say, a spell used to manipulate the weather, even if it's not the same kind of attack.

 

[Idazmi]

It's not the same, but the logic is similar. If Steve wasn't more durable than the blocks the Creeper destroys it would just be vaporized as well instead of just taking the damage. The same logic happens here. Steve >>> a block in term of dura.

The logic is NOT similar. Blocks come in different strengths, none of which matters when they touch the Ender Dragon: they just disappear instantly when touched. Creepers cause blocks to fragment and disperse based on their specific properties, not simply "poof" out of existence like the Ender Dragon does to them.

Except they do. Steve and any other enemy eat shit when they're close to the dragon, except they don't get completely destroyed due to simply being more durable. Same as bove.

Except:

1. The Wither can kill the Ender Dragon, but the Wither is flat out incapable of making that much matter disappear, and also doesn't do any damage on touch contact.

2. The developer flat-out stated that the reason the Ender Dragon passes through any block was because he couldn't make a good collision mesh with it's multiple giant and constantly moving hitboxes.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Except that Obsidian and End Stone are some of the strongest blocks there is and, coincidentally enough, are the ones immune to the dragon. Also your logic would imply that the dragon, for some reasons, decides to not erase blocks nor the players specifically (including their armor, which is made out of material it otherwise destroys), which requires too much assumptions compared to just assuming that Steve is more durable than the blocks being destroyed

Not doing so =/= not capable. Also, AoE fallacy again. And you're still bringing your meaningless gameplay reasons when both me and Ed covered that and that it's not at all relevant to the current argument.

 

[Agnaa]

It seems weird that taking damage from 60 7-C explosions a second for multiple seconds is the same as just surviving one of those explosions, but I guess that's just wiki standards.

I'd assume that the charge is just sheer strength. It's the same on-touch vaporization as always, just it's charging at you.

The trouble is the constant 7-C explosions seem to be a mere result of its existence rather than an attack it's constantly putting energy into. But this might be fine since The Player can tank the explosion anyway.

If this is all just weird consequences of wiki standards being applied to games then I don't have a huge enough issue to want anything changed, then.

 

[Idazmi]

Except that Obsidian and End Stone are some of the strongest blocks there is and, coincidentally enough, are the ones immune to the dragon. Also your logic would imply that the dragon, for some reasons, decides to not erase blocks nor the players specifically (including their armor, which is made out of material it otherwise destroys), which requires too much assumptions compared to just assuming that Steve is more durable than the blocks being destroyed

Actually, my assumption is that it cannot erase Obsidian and End Stone. Not that it makes any decision not to. Why? Because a sand block that is merely dropped on the Ender Dragon will invariably disappear.

Not doing so =/= not capable. Also, AoE fallacy again. And you're still bringing your meaningless gameplay reasons when both me and Ed covered that and that it's not at all relevant to the current argument.

The Wither literally has the one singular goal of wiping out any and all living things in it's vicinity: it has no bloody reason to avoid using 7-C attacks on literally everything it encounters, yet it will never do so.

 

[Idazmi]

It seems weird that taking damage from 60 7-C explosions a second for multiple seconds is the same as just surviving one of those explosions, but I guess that's just wiki standards.

I'd assume that the charge is just sheer strength. It's the same on-touch vaporization as always, just it's charging at you.

The trouble is the constant 7-C explosions seem to be a mere result of its existence rather than an attack it's constantly putting energy into. But this might be fine since The Player can tank the explosion anyway.

If this is all just weird consequences of wiki standards being applied to games then I don't have a huge enough issue to want anything changed, then.

That's not how the wiki works: taking damage from 60 7-C explosions a second for multiple seconds would rate well above 7-C.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

1. So you're saying that those blocks are just durable enough to take the hits. Then why wouldn't Steve also be the same? Also pretty sure that Sand blocks just gets knocked away when falling on the dragon.

2. It wants to kill living beings, not destroy blocks. It doesn't go around destroying everything. Also AoE fallacy again. And the Wither can destroy blocks that the Dragon is unable to, so.

 

[Idazmi]

1. So you're saying that those blocks are just durable enough to take the hits. Then why wouldn't Steve also be the same? Also pretty sure that Sand blocks just gets knocked away when falling on the dragon.

No: the sand block dissapears, as all blocks do on mere contact with the Ender Dragon. Also, you're the one saying End Stone and Obsidian are "durable" enough to survive what is clearly a passive cessation of existence - not me. I'm stating verbatim that these two blocks are unaffected, and all other blocks cease to exist when they touch the Ender Dragon, because that is exactly what's happening.

2. It wants to kill living beings, not destroy blocks. It doesn't go around destroying everything. Also AoE fallacy again. And the Wither can destroy blocks that the Dragon is unable to, so.

Stop being silly: there's a hundred reasons why a crazed omnicidal maniac would love to use an ability that lets it ignore any and all terrai as the Ender Dragon does. It makes it that much harder for pesky living creatures to escape when they cant just flee behind cover.

 

[Therefir]

If the Ender Dragon is erasing blocks from existence, vaporization is inapplicable, that would be just hax.

 

[Idazmi]

If the Ender Dragon is erasing blocks from existence, vaporization is inapplicable, that would be just hax.

Thank you.

 

[Jinsye]

If the Ender Dragon is erasing blocks from existence, vaporization is inapplicable, that would be just hax.

It's not though.

Which requires more assumptions

A) The Dragon destroys the blocks

B) The Ender Dragon magically erases the blocks from existence which either only works on non-living beings or grants every creature in the game resistance to Existence Erasure and that it somehow doesn't work on End Stone, Obsidian, Bedrock, and Armor while not working at all how actual void manip in the game works.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You keep saying that it's EE. We keep saying to you that it's not. Also you can't just take what's happening in-game literally like that all the time and expect it to work in VS Debating. Because that's clearly what you're doing.

In-game yes, the Dragon doesn't destroy End Stone and Obsidian specifically. But in-universe it makes no goddamn sense and requires far more assumptions than just accepting the fact that Steve and the blocks are too durable to be destroyed.

Yet the Wither doesn't destroy the terrain randomly like that. Only when it's in the way. Also again, AoE fallacy. Being of comparable strength doesn't mean the Wither can do everything the dragon can.

 

[Idazmi]

A) The Dragon destroys the blocks

B) The Ender Dragon magically erases the blocks from existence which either only works on non-living beings or grants every creature in the game resistance to Existence Erasure and that it somehow doesn't work on End Stone, Obsidian, Bedrock, and Armor while not working at all how actual void manip in the game works.

C) The Ender Dragon has the passive ability to just make most - but not all - sorts of non-living matter instantly disappear on mere touch. Which. It. Does. Clear case of Hax.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Edward The part about only working on non-living things isn't even true when you consider corals or tree blocks being things, or the Golems being things so, even more arbitrary selections.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again, Idazmi, you focus too much on what is literally happening in-game and not enough on how to interpret it in-universe. MC is still a game. It's still bound by game mechanics that don't correspond to the in-universe world 100% of the times.

And saying that the Dragon has very specific EE "because that's literally what happens" doesn't work at all in-universe.

 

[Therefir]

So you are basically suggesting that everyone in Minecraft are 7-C? That sounds way less reasonble than just assuming the Elder Dragon's ability doesn't work on living beings.

Also, why you assumed vaporization instead of pulverization?

 

[Jinsye]

It completely removes water with no traces of it left, so that's vaporization.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Characters like Steve being 7-C makes way more sense than the Dragon having extremely specific EE that only erases the in-game definition of a "block" yet not the in-game definition of an "entity" (definitions that doesn't make any sense in-universe, as I keep saying)

It's vaporization because water also gets destroyed, without leaving anything behind.

 

[Idazmi]

You keep saying that it's EE. We keep saying to you that it's not. Also you can't just take what's happening in-game literally like that all the time and expect it to work in VS Debating. Because that's clearly what you're doing.

In-game yes, the Dragon doesn't destroy End Stone and Obsidian specifically. But in-universe it makes no goddamn sense and requires far more assumptions than just accepting the fact that Steve and the blocks are too durable to be destroyed.

Why Ender Dragons don't spawn in the main world

The blocks are not being destroyed. They are simply "poofed" away instantly on touch.

Yet the Wither doesn't destroy the terrain randomly like that. Only when it's in the way. Also again, AoE fallacy. Being of comparable strength doesn't mean the Wither can do everything the dragon can.

1.9.2 Survival 5 - Wither

As you can see, beginning at 1:24, the Wither DOES destroy the terrain randomly: just nowhere near enough to get you anywhere near 7-C for it's attacks.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're not listening to me, are you Idazmi? You're STILL showing me what happens literally in-game with no regards with how it makes sense in-universe. Your gameplay clips are meaningless when trying to argue for the latter.

Also I hope you know that the Wither only destroys its surroundings when it spawns, it doesn't go on a block genocide.

 

[Idazmi]

You're not listening to me, are you Idazmi? You're STILL showing me what happens literally in-game with no regards with how it makes sense in-universe. Your gameplay clips are meaningless when trying to argue for the latter.

Minecraft only exists as a videogame with no plot or narrative of any kind: the game IS the universe.

Also I hope you know that the Wither only destroys its surroundings when it spawns, it doesn't go on a block genocide.

That fact that you resorted to a strawman argument like that when I literally just uploaded a gameplay video speaks loads for your integrity: we can both clearly see what the Wither is doing - destroying blocks both when t spawns, AND after. But not nearly enough to match the Ender Dragon.

 

[Jinsye]

Umm no, you can't say just because it doesn't have a plot means all game mechanics are canon.

 

[Idazmi]

Umm no, you can't say just because it doesn't have a plot means all game mechanics are canon.

No, it doesn't. However, a passive ability is still not an attack, and the Ender Dragon passing through blocks as if they were air is a passive ability.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Except that's not how we treat it here. MC still has a narrative, even with how thin it is. There is still an in-universe universe. It's still fiction. Structures and characters have lore that goes beyond the gameplay. Stuff exists for a reason. It's not 100% game, otherwise it wouldn't have profiles here.

Yes, the Wither explodes and then go after the players. That's not a proof of wanting to destroy every block in the world. Seriously go actual test the Wither itself/look it up. It doesn't act like you describe it does. It only destroys blocks: 1. When spawning 2. When attacking 3. When being attacked 4. Randomly when it shoots blue skulls.

 

[Therefir]

This still doesn't make sense, according to you, even Minecraft's weakest creature is immune to 7-C attacks because no one is affected by the Elder Dragon's ability, are you going to upgrade everyone to 7-C or what?

 

[Jinsye]

Tried before

We don't scale normal creatures to the Dragon for the same reason we don't scale Goombas to Mario.