- 5,204
- 3,083
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies
- Thread starter Idazmi
- Start date
- 9,684
- 8,738
@Edwardtruong2006
Most of the calculations on that blog are incorrect, starting with the destruction value used with the explosion calcs, in those calcs there is a high-end and a low-end, in the high-end he assumed that the explosion vaporized the blocks, which is completely unfounded, and in the low-end he assummed a value... five times higher than pulverization of rock? I don't know why Saikou used 1000 j/cc, but the whole thing is already wrong with that.
Also, those explosions leave several blocks in the crater, so I don't think pulverization of rock should be used, violent fragmentation may be fine.
About the sponge calc, I'm not sure about the formula used, from what I have seen, in order to calculate feats such as vaporizing water we must first calculate the weight of said water and then multiply it by the latent heat of vaporization and specific heat of water.
Most of the calculations on that blog are incorrect, starting with the destruction value used with the explosion calcs, in those calcs there is a high-end and a low-end, in the high-end he assumed that the explosion vaporized the blocks, which is completely unfounded, and in the low-end he assummed a value... five times higher than pulverization of rock? I don't know why Saikou used 1000 j/cc, but the whole thing is already wrong with that.
Also, those explosions leave several blocks in the crater, so I don't think pulverization of rock should be used, violent fragmentation may be fine.
About the sponge calc, I'm not sure about the formula used, from what I have seen, in order to calculate feats such as vaporizing water we must first calculate the weight of said water and then multiply it by the latent heat of vaporization and specific heat of water.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,465
- 1,598
@Refir
1000 j/cc comes from the pulverization of glass actually. (Which y'know can happen)
>Explosions leave several blocks in the crater.
Which is why Saikou divided it by the explosion's power then multiplied it by one less than the og number. The blocks in the crater are the parts that were violent frag (say 1/6th of the total blocks drop so 1/6th of the total destruction is violent frag and the 5/6 is vaporization/pulverization).
>water shit
Did you miss the part where it says the water/sponge explosions were specifically wanked and unusable and he was just doing that part for fun? The next set of explosion calcs are the correct one.
1000 j/cc comes from the pulverization of glass actually. (Which y'know can happen)
>Explosions leave several blocks in the crater.
Which is why Saikou divided it by the explosion's power then multiplied it by one less than the og number. The blocks in the crater are the parts that were violent frag (say 1/6th of the total blocks drop so 1/6th of the total destruction is violent frag and the 5/6 is vaporization/pulverization).
>water shit
Did you miss the part where it says the water/sponge explosions were specifically wanked and unusable and he was just doing that part for fun? The next set of explosion calcs are the correct one.
- 9,684
- 8,738
It doesn't make much sense that some blocks are pulverized and others aren't, someone should test if those explosions can pulverize blocks from the same distance or if they still leave some blocks behind.
Not that I distrust you, but do you have a link that shows the value for glass pulverization?
I never said the calc wasn't for fun, but the comment was certainly unnecessary.
Not that I distrust you, but do you have a link that shows the value for glass pulverization?
I never said the calc wasn't for fun, but the comment was certainly unnecessary.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,465
- 1,598
Narutoforum's because fluttershit sucks and we need something gives thee the value for glass.
Also it's apparently how Minecraft explosions work, some parts are partially destroyed more thsn others somehow due to the fact if it wasn't completely destroyed it would've turned into a block on destruction
Also it's apparently how Minecraft explosions work, some parts are partially destroyed more thsn others somehow due to the fact if it wasn't completely destroyed it would've turned into a block on destruction
- 384
- 119
- Thread starter
- #206
And, much like the Dracula example, there are two different and unrelated abilities at play. If Dracula punching someone is not the same as him leveling a town with a thunderstorm, then the Ender dragon's ability to erase blocks is not the same as it's fireball attack.Flashlight237 said:
- 26,160
- 3,654
But glass doesn't leave behind blocks... ever. Vaping for it is not an assumption to make on it not leaving blocks behind when punching it doesn't either.
- 384
- 119
- Thread starter
- #208
Agnaa said:
Therefir said:
It's become pretty obvious to me that the only reason this recalculation is being opposed at all is because some people here just want Minecraft to have a higher tier than it should. I mean, we've somehow gone from discussing a definite Game Mechanics ability that violates in-universe physics and was never meant to be in the game in the first place, to a sincere argument for 8-C sheep wool, that is also based on Game Mechanics.Ricsi-viragosi said:
This has to stop.
- 12,562
- 2,518
Sigh
I've tested it myself, if you drop sand or anvils etc on the ED while it's stationary they don't disappear. I even have video evidence if you want me to upload it, so this 'argument' against the ED destroying blocks by charging has to stop.
The fact that the ED still destroys blocks by ramming them years after it was first introduced suggests that the creators are alright with that feature. Even if it wasn't meant to be in the game to begin with, it was put in the game and is still in the game.
I'm sorry, but 8-C is a massive lowball for boss mobs. The Wither awakening alone should get results higher than 8-C. Normal mobs can tank lightning even if you don't buy the nether heat argument, Creepers can one-shot said normal mobs and late game player no-sells creeper explosions.
I've tested it myself, if you drop sand or anvils etc on the ED while it's stationary they don't disappear. I even have video evidence if you want me to upload it, so this 'argument' against the ED destroying blocks by charging has to stop.
The fact that the ED still destroys blocks by ramming them years after it was first introduced suggests that the creators are alright with that feature. Even if it wasn't meant to be in the game to begin with, it was put in the game and is still in the game.
I'm sorry, but 8-C is a massive lowball for boss mobs. The Wither awakening alone should get results higher than 8-C. Normal mobs can tank lightning even if you don't buy the nether heat argument, Creepers can one-shot said normal mobs and late game player no-sells creeper explosions.
- 384
- 119
- Thread starter
- #211
GyroNutz said:
Why Ender Dragons don't spawn in the main world
The Ender Dragon clearly flies through terrain casually, regardless of "ramming". That's why Saikou's original calculation assumes the Ender Dragon can "vaporize" as much steel as can fit in it's hitbox: because the blocks dissapear as soon as they touch said hitbox - in any direction, not just the front (as ramming would certainly suggest).
The fact that the ED still destroys blocks by ramming them years after it was first introduced suggests that the creators are alright with that feature. Even if it wasn't meant to be in the game to begin with, it was put in the game and is still in the game.
That doesn't change it from being Game Mechanics.
I'm sorry, but 8-C is a massive lowball for boss mobs. The Wither awakening alone should get results higher than 8-C. Normal mobs can tank lightning even if you don't buy the nether heat argument, Creepers can one-shot said normal mobs and late game player no-sells creeper explosions.
The Wither Awakening also happens only once - when the Wither is first spawned. All of it's attacks are far weaker.
- 26,160
- 3,654
Regardless, it only happens when it is flying, so it can only "vaporuze" ten or so blocks at once? It just does it continously.
- 12,562
- 2,518
@Ricsi I agree that the calc would have to be changed, as the ED vaporising it's own hitbox worth of iron is way too much of a highball.
@Idazmi The wither awakening only happening once does not change the fact that a late game player can no-sell it from the epicentre.
@Idazmi The wither awakening only happening once does not change the fact that a late game player can no-sell it from the epicentre.
- 26,160
- 3,654
It would still be High 7-C if we use vaping (166 kilotons).
Using our standard Pulv value (since I don't know a metal soecific one) gives... 5.7 tons.
Using our standard Pulv value (since I don't know a metal soecific one) gives... 5.7 tons.
- 26,160
- 3,654
That is what I did.
- 26,160
- 3,654
14X8X1= 112 m^3
112 m^3 to cm^3 is 112000000 cm^3
Iron vaping, according to Darkanine, is 6,213,627 Joules per cc.
In total, (6,213,627X112000000) is 6.95926224 × 1014 joules
112 m^3 to cm^3 is 112000000 cm^3
Iron vaping, according to Darkanine, is 6,213,627 Joules per cc.
In total, (6,213,627X112000000) is 6.95926224 × 1014 joules
- 9,684
- 8,738
Darkanine himself updated that value to 71353.79 j/cc, although a few days later, he said that the value everyone agreed on was 60915.7 j/cc, so I suppose they discussed this somewhere.
Anyway, we had already agreed that the fact that she can vaporize water doesn't necessarily mean that she can vaporize iron too, so the feat needs to be recalculated with water vaporization.
Volume = 112000000 cm^3
Vaporization of water is 2575 j/cc (The formula used by Saikou was fine after all).
Energy = 112000000 x 2575 = 288400000000 Joules, 68.93 Tons of TNT (City Block level+)
Anyway, we had already agreed that the fact that she can vaporize water doesn't necessarily mean that she can vaporize iron too, so the feat needs to be recalculated with water vaporization.
Volume = 112000000 cm^3
Vaporization of water is 2575 j/cc (The formula used by Saikou was fine after all).
Energy = 112000000 x 2575 = 288400000000 Joules, 68.93 Tons of TNT (City Block level+)
- 26,160
- 3,654
I mean, there still is the thing about water vaping having a different effect, but it looks fine.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,465
- 1,598
- 26,160
- 3,654
Yeah but, when does it vaporize it? Or you mean it's explosions?
- 26,160
- 3,654
That is not... no.
Only becaause I can vaporize water it doesn't mean I can vaporize mercury.
Lava is a completely different thing even if you assume the water is being vaporized, which contradicts the fact that vaporization has a completely different animation to begin with in minecraft.
Only becaause I can vaporize water it doesn't mean I can vaporize mercury.
Lava is a completely different thing even if you assume the water is being vaporized, which contradicts the fact that vaporization has a completely different animation to begin with in minecraft.
- 12,562
- 2,518
Lying how?
Everything I said there was true. A late game player no-sells the Wither's explosion upon spawning; you have not debunked or even argued this point yet. That doesn't mean that I think the Ender Dragon's feat isn't legit; it's that even if we consider that feat to not be legit, there are still Minecraft feats above 8-C.
Everything I said there was true. A late game player no-sells the Wither's explosion upon spawning; you have not debunked or even argued this point yet. That doesn't mean that I think the Ender Dragon's feat isn't legit; it's that even if we consider that feat to not be legit, there are still Minecraft feats above 8-C.
- 384
- 119
- Thread starter
- #235
Click this link to see what you said: that sand blocks dropped on the Ender Dragon don't disappear, because the Ender Dragon destroys blocks by "ramming" into them. That's what I am actually opposing, and your comment just now isn't addressing the question... because you can't.GyroNutz said:
Why Ender Dragons don't spawn in the main world
The Ender Dragon clearly flies through terrain casually, regardless of "ramming". That's why Saikou's original calculation assumes the Ender Dragon can "vaporize" as much steel as can fit in it's hitbox: because the blocks dissapear as soon as they touch said hitbox - in any direction, not just the front (as ramming would certainly suggest). In short: you lied. If you had proof you certainly would have posted it by now: it's been 21 hours since you made the claim. You also didn't answer the following:
The fact that the ED still destroys blocks by ramming them years after it was first introduced suggests that the creators are alright with that feature. Even if it wasn't meant to be in the game to begin with, it was put in the game and is still in the game.
Guess what? That doesn't change it from being Game Mechanics.
I'm sorry, but 8-C is a massive lowball for boss mobs. The Wither awakening alone should get results higher than 8-C. Normal mobs can tank lightning even if you don't buy the nether heat argument, Creepers can one-shot said normal mobs and late game player no-sells creeper explosions.
The Wither Awakening also happens only once - when the Wither is first spawned. All of it's attacks are far weaker than town-killing, yet can still harm the Player.
- 12,562
- 2,518
1. Casually ramming through the terrain is still ramming through the terrain, I don't see your point.
2. We've already explained why it isn't game mechanics multiple times now, you can't just brush this off as 'lol game mechanics' without arguing our points.
3. Yes, and the Player can tank it so he scales. The Wither can hurt the player so the Wither scales. It's really not that hard to understand, and I feel like you're playing dumb on purpose.
4. How much do you want to bet that I don't have proof for my claim? Btw I said that "I even have video evidence if you want me to upload it". No one had asked me to upload it so I'm not gonna go out of my way to do it. It's ironic because it's you that claimed sand disappears when you drop it on the Ender Dragon. Oops.
2. We've already explained why it isn't game mechanics multiple times now, you can't just brush this off as 'lol game mechanics' without arguing our points.
3. Yes, and the Player can tank it so he scales. The Wither can hurt the player so the Wither scales. It's really not that hard to understand, and I feel like you're playing dumb on purpose.
4. How much do you want to bet that I don't have proof for my claim? Btw I said that "I even have video evidence if you want me to upload it". No one had asked me to upload it so I'm not gonna go out of my way to do it. It's ironic because it's you that claimed sand disappears when you drop it on the Ender Dragon. Oops.
- 384
- 119
- Thread starter
- #237
Gently flying through stone as if it were clouds is not "ramming" them.GyroNutz said:
I argued your points: you never rebutted mine, or even tried to, if we're being honest.GyroNutz said:
No, my friend: I don't play dumb. I do get annoyed when I see blatant lying and evasion in a debate, and that is what I'm seeing here - an awful lot of it.GyroNutz said:
GyroNutz wrote earlier: I've tested it myself, if you drop sand or anvils etc on the ED while it's stationary they don't disappear (...)GyroNutz said:
You claimed exactly what I said you did. Also, you have no logical reaso to be withholding any such evidence.
- 12,562
- 2,518
1. No, flying through stone at full speed is not 'gentle'.
2. My guy, your point got debunked within the first 10 posts. I have no idea why you're doubling down on it and acting as if no one has even tried to debunk it. Debating whether or not I have debated your points is also pointless.
3. What part of that is a 'blatant lie'? Are you saying that the late-game player can't tank the Wither's explosion upon awakening? Are you saying that the Wither cannot harm the Player with their attacks, and therefore doesn't scale to itself being summoned? Both of those are wrong.
4. I geniunely don't know what you're trying to prove here, and quite frankly you're embarassing yourself by making me point out your own lie. I'll upload the video, but literally all you had to do was understand that me rendering + uploading a video is going out of my way and ask for the evidence instead of trying to paint me as a liar.
Don't expect me to respond, as I'm getting tired of this
2. My guy, your point got debunked within the first 10 posts. I have no idea why you're doubling down on it and acting as if no one has even tried to debunk it. Debating whether or not I have debated your points is also pointless.
3. What part of that is a 'blatant lie'? Are you saying that the late-game player can't tank the Wither's explosion upon awakening? Are you saying that the Wither cannot harm the Player with their attacks, and therefore doesn't scale to itself being summoned? Both of those are wrong.
4. I geniunely don't know what you're trying to prove here, and quite frankly you're embarassing yourself by making me point out your own lie. I'll upload the video, but literally all you had to do was understand that me rendering + uploading a video is going out of my way and ask for the evidence instead of trying to paint me as a liar.
Don't expect me to respond, as I'm getting tired of this
- 1,269
- 384
There's no need for anyone to insult one another here; nobody needs to claim that another individual is embarrassing themself for taking part in the thread.
Assuming we are debating the notion of whether or not the Ender Dragon destroying blocks is still considered environmental destruction (applicable to blocks/terrain), I can definitely agree that the Ender Dragon does not vaporize solid blocks at all as per the comparison between the Nether vaporizing water (showing white particles to imply steam) and the Ender Dragon making it entirely disappear.
I do not believe the Ender Dragon has any abilities that would otherwise correlate to some kind of magic aura being the cause of the blocks being destroyed. I think that the Ender Dragon being given a different tier (under the assumption that its block removing ability is not considered applicable AP/Durability) in addition to a "possibly" rating for the tier that would correlate to destroying a portion of blocks that it would normally do ingame could probably work. I say this because of the fact that there's a potential implication that the block removing ability is being performed with the same physical force that the Ender Dragon utilizes to ram into targets with, but at the same time there exists the other possibility of there being some kind of other external force causing the blocks to be removed.
In short; I'm neutral on this and I definitely want more information (preferably a summary of what was discussed beforehand, as I do not wish to look through this entire thread) before coming to a conclusion, but I can definitely agree that - should the idea of simply applying a 'possibly' rating to the profile with physical strength deriving from the block destroying feat - 7-C isn't exactly the best tier in consideration of the fact that it assumes iron is being completely vaporized despite there being no steam particles or anything implying such.
Assuming we are debating the notion of whether or not the Ender Dragon destroying blocks is still considered environmental destruction (applicable to blocks/terrain), I can definitely agree that the Ender Dragon does not vaporize solid blocks at all as per the comparison between the Nether vaporizing water (showing white particles to imply steam) and the Ender Dragon making it entirely disappear.
I do not believe the Ender Dragon has any abilities that would otherwise correlate to some kind of magic aura being the cause of the blocks being destroyed. I think that the Ender Dragon being given a different tier (under the assumption that its block removing ability is not considered applicable AP/Durability) in addition to a "possibly" rating for the tier that would correlate to destroying a portion of blocks that it would normally do ingame could probably work. I say this because of the fact that there's a potential implication that the block removing ability is being performed with the same physical force that the Ender Dragon utilizes to ram into targets with, but at the same time there exists the other possibility of there being some kind of other external force causing the blocks to be removed.
In short; I'm neutral on this and I definitely want more information (preferably a summary of what was discussed beforehand, as I do not wish to look through this entire thread) before coming to a conclusion, but I can definitely agree that - should the idea of simply applying a 'possibly' rating to the profile with physical strength deriving from the block destroying feat - 7-C isn't exactly the best tier in consideration of the fact that it assumes iron is being completely vaporized despite there being no steam particles or anything implying such.
Similar threads
