Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Idazmi]

This is a video shows a couple of Players with midgame level equipment trying to fight the Wither - an endgame boss. Fight starts at 1:24.


1.9.2 Survival 5 - Wither

They definitely bit off more than they could chew, however, look at how much punishment it took to actually defeat them. The players are only wearing Iron Armor with mild enchantments, but they can clearly take a few hits without instantly dying - hits which are blasting through meters of solid rock. With that in mind, how can the mid-game player possibly be a full tier below the Wither? The disparity should kill them instantly.

I think the tier differences between the Player's Key dividers have been miscalculated by a fair bit. Otherwise, there's a baseline calculation elsewhere that's throwing things off.

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't this just Game Mechanics though?

 

[Idazmi]

Isn't this just Game Mechanics though?

I should say not - unless we're going to chalk up everything in Minecraft as game mechanics. Unless the Wither can actually do something worthy of it's current tier listing, I see no reason at all to believe the Wither exists a full tier over The Player at the mid-game. Early-game, maybe, but not mid-game.

 

[GyroNutz]

I should say not - unless we're going to chalk up everything in Minecraft as game mechanics. Unless the Wither can actually do something worthy of it's current tier listing, I see no reason at all to believe the Wither exists a full tier over The Player at the mid-game. Early-game, maybe, but not mid-game.

It does something worthy of its current tier listing; it is comparable to, if not superior than, the Ender Dragon who has a 7-C feat.

Game stats do not have to scale linearly. In a game such as Minecraft where someone with no armour and a wooden sword could potentially kill the game's final boss, there's gonna be a lot of scaling thrown off by game mechanics. As shown in the video, the two players struggled to fight the Wither with some of the best gear that can be considered mid-game, whereas a player with late game gear can reliably and comfortably fight/defeat the Wither. So yes, it is game mechanics.

 

[Idazmi]

It does something worthy of its current tier listing; it is comparable to, if not superior than, the Ender Dragon who has a 7-C feat.

And when did the Ender Dragon obliterate a city in a single shot again?

Game stats do not have to scale linearly. In a game such as Minecraft where someone with no armour and a wooden sword could potentially kill the game's final boss, there's gonna be a lot of scaling thrown off by game mechanics. As shown in the video, the two players struggled to fight the Wither with some of the best gear that can be considered mid-game, whereas a player with late game gear can reliably and comfortably fight/defeat the Wither. So yes, it is game mechanics.

You haven't proven anything to be game mechanics here. You're simply regurgitating the current assumptions.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that GyroNutz makes sense.

 

[GyroNutz]

And when did the Ender Dragon obliterate a city in a single shot again?

You don't need to obliterate a town in a single shot to be town level. Producing the required amount of energy through another feat would also make you town level. In the Ender Dragon's case, he has this.

You haven't proven anything to be game mechanics here. You're simply regurgitating the current assumptions.

I'm explaining why we treat mid-game players harming the Wither as game mechanics. It's not something you can 'prove' as such

 

[Idazmi]

You don't need to obliterate a town in a single shot to be town level. Producing the required amount of energy through another feat would also make you town level. In the Ender Dragon's case, he has this.

The Ender Dragon's ability to "vaporize" material is game mechanics: the programmer couldn't make a proper collision system, so in his own words, he cheated by giving it's oversized hitbox the ability to instantly delete almost any block it touches. The dragon's actual attacks are nowhere near that powerful. Also, the Ender Dragon is a she.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That could be a problem. So how do you suggest that we solve it?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I can already see the idcounter of being that is just meta reasoning, and that it still happens in game.

Not aure I agree with it, but just saying.

But to be honest, I also really disagree with the idea of the ender dragon attacking people's insides because it is intangible. Hell, her being intangible could be a game mechanic.

 

[Nico-v11]

I mean everything about the profile is game mechanics to a degree. For example the regen on the profile is justified by arrows showing up on the character model without the character dying like in any other game. Since there's no set story at all it's all just kinda slapped together.

 

[Idazmi]

Looking deeper, I see a lot of problems with the current profiles.

1. The Ender Drago

She's wrongly listed as having Void Manipulation because she can resist the Void - which is merely an in-game boundary designed to limit the playing area. it's like those military games (like the original Star Wars Battlefront) that tell you "Return to the Combat Area" when you stray too far, and kill you if you don't. Being programmed not to die from that is not an attack, nor is it a resistance to an attack.

Her AP is calculated from her ability to "vaporize" blocks on physical contact... the problem is, that ability only exists because only the programmer needed a workaround for her collision physics. That ability simply should not be a part of her normal AP: it affects the game, but she can't use it as an attack against anything. If we insist in keeping it, we should keep the specifics of it - she can delete any non-living matter except Obsidian by touching it, allowing her to effortlessly pass through any interrupting terrain - such as mountains or water - with no resistance. Not an attack, just an odd property of her existence as an extra-dimensional creature from The End.

She's also listed as having "Bad Luck manipulation"... she does not. Simple as that.

2. The Wither

The Wither's profile is listed as having Probability Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Darkness Manipulation ... it simply cannot do any of that. It doesn't make things darker, it has no control over probability in any sense, and has no control over death beyond merely killing someone. None of it's actual attacks (wither skulls and so on) do anywhere near town-level damage to anything at all. Unlike the Ender Dragon (which it can easily defeat) it has no ability to simply fly through blocks and delete them as it goes - likely because it's small size and lack of wings made things easier on the programmer. Unlike the Ender Dragon, the Wither is also not from The End.

3. The Player

The Current key dividers: 9-A | 8-C | 7-C

My suggested changes: 9-B | 9-A | 8-C

The tiers in the key divider are too far apart right now to make any sense, and the base level is too low. The Player's basic abilities - without any armor or weapons - indicate a tier equal or close to 9-B at base. Early game armor allows the player to barely survive things like having a crate of TNT explode in their face - I'd imagine that to be around small building level durability, not skyscraper level. Mid game armor has mild to moderate enchantments, allowing the player to survive more of the same, but not enough to justify a whole tier change. End game armor and weapons allow the player to casually survive attacks that are seen leveling small buildings and destroying several meters of solid rock in-game. With Regenerationn, they can survive enough firepower over time to level a town. Not all at once.

 

[Antvasima]

Idazmi seems to make sense to me.

Which profiles would need to be updated?

 

[Nico-v11]

The Wither having death manipulation is due to the Wither effect. Darkness manipulation is due to the dark particals that come about from its attacks.

 

[Idazmi]

The Wither having death manipulation is due to the Wither effect. Darkness manipulation is due to the dark particals that come about from its attacks.

The Wither effect kills by making the target wither away, like mold does to bread: it doesn't "manipulate" death. It cannot, for example, bring a person back to life. Also, an attack that generates dark-colored particles is not the same as "darkness manipulation" by any stretch.

 

[Idazmi]

Idazmi seems to make sense to me.

Which profiles would need to be updated?

I've been looking through the Minecraft profiles, and from what I'm seeing, almost all of them have been upgraded to a universal 8-C baseline. Even the Polar bear is 8-C, and it's literally just a Polar Bear, with no special attributes beyond being cube-shaped. Creepers apparently have "Subsonic combat and reaction speed" despite their only attack being to explode like suicide bombers, and Ghasts are being rated as "building level" based on feats of heat resistance: resisting lava and the heat of the Nether (In-game, Ghasts are 'glass canons', being very fragile, yet doing incredibly heavy damage per shot). The whole verse needs an overhaul.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine, but you should check if you can find any staff members listed in the Minecraft page first, and then ask them to comment here.

 

[Idazmi]

Okay. That seems fine, but you should check if you can find any staff members listed in the Minecraft page first, and then ask them to comment here.

Got it. I just contacted Saikou The Lewd King and Sera Loveheart via their message walls.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'll give a true answer later since I'm busy right now, but I'll say this:

You seem to argue out of incredulity rather than debunking the feats ("This doesn't look 8-C so it's not 8-C"). And it doesn't work like that.

I also expressed how I disagree with assuming that the player/bosses are this much above the rest, but this was refused, so our current system is the best I can get.

 

[Idazmi]

I'll give a true answer later since I'm busy right now, but I'll say this:

You seem to argue out of incredulity rather than debunking the feats ("This doesn't look 8-C so it's not 8-C"). And it doesn't work like that.

I also expressed how I disagree with assuming that the player/bosses are this much above the rest, but this was refused, so our current system is the best I can get.

You obviously didn't read much of this thread beyond the opening post. I ask that you do read the rest of it before this discussion continues. The current calculations are all based on the Ender Dragon's ability to "vaporize" virtually anything (except Obsidian) that touches her hitbox. The issue is, that ability only exists because the programmer needed a workaround for her collision physics. It's also not an attack, so it cannot qualify for AP. It's notable that the Wither, which is stronger than the Ender Dragon in combat, doesn't "vaporize" any of the matter it touches despite being stronger than the Ender Dragon in battle and being able to destroy Obsidian: since it has no wings, it was easier to program it's hitbox.

Simply put, the supposed "feat" actually qualifies as game mechanics. Since the other calculations are reverse-engineered from that calculation, we have Polar bears and Diamond Swords being listed as being able to obliterate buildings as a basic attack. Thus, why I was incredulous.

 

[Jinsye]

>Idzami makes alot of sense to me

Ant re-read the post you're agreeing with.

Wither and ED doesnt have probability, it resists probability.

Occams Razor assumed that she destroys the blocks and doesn't just magically erase them from existence.

The sither not blowinn up towns with every attack is ab AOE Fallacy

"Keys are too many tiers from eachother to make sense" bruh. I shouldnt beed to explain why this is wrong

 

[Idazmi]

>Idzami makes alot of sense to me

Ant re-read the post you're agreeing with.

Wither and ED doesnt have probability, it resists probability.

Occams Razor assumed that she destroys the blocks and doesn't just magically erase them from existence.

The sither not blowinn up towns with every attack is ab AOE Fallacy

"Keys are too many tiers from eachother to make sense" bruh. I shouldnt beed to explain why this is wrong

The thing is, the blocks are simply disappearing, as you can see in this video the developer made. The sudden vaporization of that much matter causes an explosive effect, and there's no explosion of any sort - there are plenty of explosions in Minecraft to compare this against, and they simulate everything from the blast impact to fragmentation. If anything, your reply here is much more simplistic and nonsensical than my argument.

 

[Jinsye]

I dunno maybe the reason why they disappear is because they're destroyed. Just a thought.

Also trying to use some physics talk to justify why a destructive feat is invalid in fiction which commonly ignores physics isn't the best argument. In fiction, people can use their powers to vaporize large objects without a massive explosion.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Okay so first off, it doesn't matter what the gameplay reason is behind an ability. As long as it's not obvious game mechanics nor contradicted, it's useable. So none of that "The dragon only destroys terrain because of game mechanics."

Secondly, we have EE in MC. We know how it works and how it affects people. The Dragon's attacks aren't that. They aren't treated the same and are just really strong attacks that push people around, not erase stuff from existence.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree with Saikou.

 

[Jinsye]

I also agree with Saikou

 

[Idazmi]

Okay so first off, it doesn't matter what the gameplay reason is behind an ability. As long as it's not obvious game mechanics nor contradicted, it's useable. So none of that "The dragon only destroys terrain because of game mechanics."

Secondly, we have EE in MC. We know how it works and how it affects people. The Dragon's attacks aren't that. They aren't treated the same and are just really strong attacks that push people around, not erase stuff from existence.

So why then do the blocks get erased from existence when they touch the Ender Dragon? They simply disappear into the aether, it's actual attacks do no such thing. Notch - the creator of Minecraft - explained why: he said that it's ability to remove blocks exists so that the dragon can fly without it's large hitbox getting in the way of it's pathfinding. Not to harm the player, even though it's a boss. How does that not fall under game mechanics, again? If the collision box was smaller, it would be programmed to go around the blocks instead of through them. This doesn't at all translate to AP, or even an Existence Erasure attack: it's a byproduct of programming necessity.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Did you not listen to what I said?

"As long as it's not obvious game mechanics not contradicted, it's useable."

It's certainly not contradicted. And for it to be "obvious game mechanics" it'd need to be something like HP or a game mechanic that's in a lot of games. Tell me what kind of game gives a character the ability to erase matter on contact, but brushes it off as "just game mechanics". None. Because that's not a thing. You give your character the ability to destroy stuff on contact, it's an ability of the character.

Again, it does not matter why this ability was added. 90% of the things in most games exist due to game mechanics reason and not lore reason. Doesn't mean that 90% of feats/abilities in games are invalid.

 

[Idazmi]

Did you not listen to what I said?

"As long as it's not obvious game mechanics not contradicted, it's useable."

It's certainly not contradicted. And for it to be "obvious game mechanics" it'd need to be something like HP or a game mechanic that's in a lot of games. Tell me what kind of game gives a character the ability to erase matter on contact, but brushes it off as "just game mechanics". None. Because that's not a thing. You give your character the ability to destroy stuff on contact, it's an ability of the character.

Okay, so the creature makes any matter except obsidian and animals disappear on touch - which I conceded above, and even explained a mecanic for. Meanwhile, it's attacks are not town-busting because this strange property is not and cannot be used as an attack.

Again, it does not matter why this ability was added. 90% of the things in most games exist due to game mechanics reason and not lore reason. Doesn't mean that 90% of feats/abilities in games are invalid.

So, what if I told you that the original Pokemon has a limit of 255 thanks to being an 8-bit system? That doesn't make every oddity related to it canon.

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou seems to make sense to me.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

There is no "explained mechanic". Like Ed said before, there is nothing to assume EE on and it's contradicted in the game itself, since it doesn't act anything like other cases of Void Manip in the game (such as the void itself).

Not sure what you're even trying to say with your Pokémon example. The 255 limit doesn't affect anything in-game and doesn't grant any new "abilities".

 

[Agnaa]

There is no "explained mechanic". Like Ed said before, there is nothing to assume EE on and it's contradicted in the game itself, since it doesn't act anything like other cases of Void Manip in the game (such as the void itself).

Not sure what you're even trying to say with your Pokémon example. The 255 limit doesn't affect anything in-game and doesn't grant any new "abilities".

You can encounter ~90 or so glitch pokemon with their own movesets and game-altering effects.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What did I say about things that are obviously game mechanics? Glitch falls under that category. On top of being completely accidental, compared to the dragon's ability being an intended mechanic that was deliberately added.

 

[Idazmi]

What did I say about things that are obviously game mechanics? Glitch falls under that category. On top of being completely accidental, compared to the dragon's ability being an intended mechanic that was deliberately added.

And that's where you are wrong: the Dragon's ability wasn't "intended". It was needed as a result of programming limitations. It wouldn't be there if the programmer could make a better collision mesh.

 

[Agnaa]

Sure, but I'm also not sure about scaling the dragon's block-disapperance to its AP when it doesn't do anything near that level of destruction with its normal attacks.

Maybe it could be separated into environmental destruction, or something like that?

 

[Jinsye]

well Shovel Knight doesn't bust City Blocks with his normal attacks and the Smash characters don't immediately bust the entire stage they're on with their normal attacks.

 

[Agnaa]

well Shovel Knight doesn't bust City Blocks with his normal attacks and the Smash characters don't immediately bust the entire stage they're on with their normal attacks.

Yes but they can damage characters who can focus their energy into a feat like that, right?

The Ender Dragon can't harness its energy from disappearing blocks into its normal attacks, and it can't damage beings who can do that level of destruction with one attack.

EDIT: Also, that Shovel Knight rating has seemingly been questioned (in a thread that ended up going nowhere with no conclusion reached)

 

[Idazmi]

well Shovel Knight doesn't bust City Blocks with his normal attacks and the Smash characters don't immediately bust the entire stage they're on with their normal attacks.

Smash Bros is a crossover series. In that series, Isabelle from Animal Crossing - an accountant with no feats - can unironically beat Metroid's Ridley with a fishing reel and a parasol.

 

[Idazmi]

Sure, but I'm also not sure about scaling the dragon's block-disapperance to its AP when it doesn't do anything near that level of destruction with its normal attacks.

Maybe it could be separated into environmental destruction, or something like that?

I suggested that already.

 

[Jinsye]

The Ender Dragon is also capable of doing said feat while it's charging, so it can focus it's energy.