MGS Thread Number 1: Abilities

[Twellas]

At that point it wouldn't even be resurrection, it would almost be summoning and I'm fairly sure that healing doesn't cover complete physical obliteration as an ability

 

[Twellas]

but I think that Regen for TMOF is the safest bet, after all, we know that Volgin is basically leeching off of Mantis and using his powers as his own, completely shutting off his ego, so saying that Mantis himself regenerates him doesn't make sense

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah considering that I can accept regen.

 

[Arcker123]

I agree with regen

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Regen.

 

[Twellas]

anything else to discuss?

 

[Armorchompy]

I remember chariot being opposed to the Precog Resistance in the previous thread, did that get resolved?

 

[Twellas]

don't know, but I'm fairly certain that Snake having it is barely even debatable, Psycho Mantis literally says "I couldn't read your future", what might be debatable is the FOXHOUND members having it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah Snake's certain, I meant the rest, which I'm kinda neutral towards

 

[Chariot190]

anything else to discuss?

I proposed a few things above.

 

[Twellas]

Also the REX>MGS1 Rex in speed thing is complicated, what was increased was the throughput of REX, which wouldn't actually effect the thing's physical speed but more like, the cutting down on the time it takes to process commands and to have it begin to take action, basically load times and lag.

Its result was still, and i quote Otacon here, "making REX as fast and agile as RAY", I know it doesn't make sense, but it's still what happened. Otacon essentially magically made REX faster and we are given some meaningless techno-jumbo to explain it, standard procedure for MG really (COUGH retroactively retconning almost every single paranormal aspect of the series to having been the result of deus-ex parasites or nanomachines COUGH)

The Sorrow soul destruction thing is iffy, it's vague, we don't know if he destroyed Mantis' soul, we don't what he did exactly. I was under the impression he sent him back to the afterlife honestly.

We see Mantis contorting in pain and almost exploding, which didn't happen with The Boss, who he surely merely took to the afterlife. Another difference is that with The Boss The Sorrow disappeared along with her, which indicates that he acts as a sort of psychopomp, personally taking souls to the "other side", with Psycho Mantis tho he was still there after the fact.
And even if he didn't destroy it, he'd still have soul manip via being able to baish them in the other side, so it doesn't even matter that much, it would essentially work in the same way.

I think this reasoning on it's own is kinda eh, but in conjunction with the whole Mantis bullshit, should be enough evidence to suggest this ability as being legit.

I'm honestly kinda neutral on this ability

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the Sorrow's abilities make sense, and so does a separate key for REX, it's silly, but it did work didn't it

 

[Chariot190]

Its result was still, and i quote Otacon here, "making REX as fast and agile as RAY", I know it doesn't make sense, but it's still what happened. Otacon essentially magically made REX faster and we are given some meaningless techno-jumbo to explain it, standard procedure for MG really (COUGH retroactively retconning almost every single paranormal aspect of the series to having been the result of deus-ex parasites or nanomachines COUGH)

The full quote is "It'll give us a big boost in throughput, which should make REX as fast and agile as RAY". here.
It actually does make sense, Otacon isn't wrong, it's just when he talks of speed and agility he may not be referring to how we define them on the wiki.
This is important, because while yes, we know the possible result from Otacon's tampering (speed and agility amp), we also know the mechanics and exact way he's trying to get this intended effect, as stated by Otacon, by increasing his throughput, which wouldn't actually change its physical speed and movement, but more like, his reactions and lag, this wouldn't increase REX's speed in the manner being insinuated here, if REX stomps at say mach 1 then REX stomping in MGS1 and REX stomping in MGS4 for example, would still be the same speed but an increase in throughput could lead to a higher mobility output as there'd be less time between actions performed leading to far more actions and movement done in a smaller timeframe, it's effectively like comparing a game being run at 30fps and 60fps, your character still moves at the same speed, but double the inputs can be put in and registered, this could very well lead to more actions and thus making him, comparatively, as fast and agile as there'd be less delay between his actions that's all. I wouldn't even say that Otacon saying REX would be faster and more agile is wrong, a dude who can only punch five times a minute would be considered slower and less agile then the dude who could throw 100 and get some backflips in there too, even if the punches themselves are the same speed just with what is essentially more cooldown (use Smash Bros frame data as an example and how character buffing in speed removes things like ending lag). The only thing that would actually be changing between 1 and 4 is REX's reaction/processing time, which, I guess if you want a key for that then that's fine, but there wouldn't really be much in actual mechanical speed.

We see Mantis contorting in pain and almost exploding, which didn't happen with The Boss, who he surely merely took to the afterlife. Another difference is that with The Boss The Sorrow disappeared along with her, which indicates that he acts as a sort of psychopomp, personally taking souls to the "other side", with Psycho Mantis tho he was still there after the fact.

I wouldn't say almost exploding, he just kinda, goes, he floats up and then a white flash with a sfx plays and he's gone, he could be in pain sure, in fact I'd be surprised if he wasn't but I wouldn't say exploding or even almost exploding. I wasn't comparing Mantis to The Boss at all but in regards to that, The Sorrow's whole schtick, even before death was manipulating the border between life and death to interact with the dead, given he was alive I doubt he needed to personally take them back to the afterlife, him doing so with his wife doesn't mean it's a requirement that he must always do, I'm actually inclined to see it isnt given we see him **** with souls elsewhere and he's onscreen at all times thus him sticking around for a second or two post Mantis doesn't mean he couldn't of sent him back or somewhere.

And even if he didn't destroy it, he'd still have soul manip via being able to baish them in the other side, so it doesn't even matter that much, it would essentially work in the same way.

It'd be soul manip either way, in fact he should have soul manip for a **** ton of reasons, I just don't think it's soul destruction, way to vague to say as much and there's no real way to confirm or look into it, unless some guide says something about it or the game's script.
If the wiki is to be believed, it'd qualify for BFR though.
"However, a mysterious force threw him back to the spirit realm, followed by an appearance by The Sorrow"
"Afterwards, The Sorrow intervened and sent his ghost back to the grave for good."

I'm honestly kinda neutral on this ability

I'm ok with it, just needs a bit more fleshing out.
-------------------------
tldr
REX's mechanical speed didnt increase if Otacon is to actually be believed, only his reactions/processing time as that's what we're told is actually be increased, that could lead to a mobility and speed increase, but not in a way that would effect how the wiki categorizes speed (If REX is MHS pre Otacon, he'd still be MHS post Otacon, or whatever his base speed is, he can just do more in less time). Sticking with the Smash example, this would be basically post Otacon REX.
Don't agree with soul destruction, soul manip is of course fine and he honestly has quite a bit of utility with it, just soul destruction in particular seems like a bit of a jump from what we see with no real way to confirm it.
Instinctive Reactions fine.

 

[Chariot190]

For the sorrow we could simply say Soul Manipulation ([his whole soul schtick], forcefully made Mantis' soul disappear).

It gets the point across either way.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay all except for the "Potentially controversial" revisions seem fine from a glance, but I had to give a hard no to stuff like Instinctive reactions.

 

[Armorchompy]

Is this enough to add what isn't controversial?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Okay all except for the "Potentially controversial" revisions seem fine from a glance, but I had to give a hard no to stuff like Instinctive reactions.

Like, all of the "Potentially Controversial" or just some of them?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Most of the potentially controversial I mean. Simple ones such as Armstrong resisting Mind manipulation might be okay unless I'm not sure why that's controversial. But the bigger levels such as Immortality type 2 or Mid-High Regen both seem pretty iffy, or very iffy in the latter's case. And Instinctive reactions are already brought up rejections on the previous thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

Chariot, the one rejecting it, is now neutral with IR. As for type 2, it's limited cause it does incapacitate him, but his regen has a delay and he survives all his injuries.

 

[Twellas]

It actually does make sense, Otacon isn't wrong, it's just when he talks of speed and agility he may not be referring to how we define them on the wiki.

But RAY is conventionally faster than REX, the only way REX could beat it is by becoming conventionally faster

get this intended effect, as stated by Otacon, by increasing his throughput, which wouldn't actually change its physical speed and movement, but more like, his reactions and lag, this wouldn't increase REX's speed in the manner being insinuated here, if REX stomps at say mach 1 then REX stomping in MGS1 and REX stomping in MGS4 for example, would still be the same speed but an increase in throughput could lead to a higher mobility output as there'd be less time between actions performed leading to far more actions and movement done in a smaller timeframe

but this isn't "becoming faster", and would be completely irrelevant to the fight, RAY is simply faster than REX, REX having "a higher mobility output" would be completely pointless, RAY would still run circles around it

I wouldn't even say that Otacon saying REX would be faster and more agile is wrong, a dude who can only punch five times a minute would be considered slower and less agile then the dude who could throw 100 and get some backflips in there too

Not really, "agile" has nothing to do with the amount of stuff you do in a given timeframe, it's about how you do it, what you claim Otacon is doing couldn't possibly make REX more agile, because it'd be the same hunk of metal who instead of stomping 2 times in like 30 seconds stomps 3 times.

The only thing that would actually be changing between 1 and 4 is REX's reaction/processing time, which, I guess if you want a key for that then that's fine, but there wouldn't really be much in actual mechanical speed.

But simply put, if REX's mechanical speed wasn't effected it wouldn't have stood a chance against RAY. Doing more stuff in a given timeframe is completely pointless if the stuff you're doing is still severely slower than your opponent.
And you're talking as if it's impossible that boosting REX's throughput also made it mechanically faster, there's no way of knowing that REX couldn't have become conventionally faster due to it, and there's absolutely no way that the mechanic you are describing would make it "agile".
I honestly think you're reading way too much into it: We know for a fact that RAY is conventionally faster than REX, and Otacon does something to make REX "As fast and agile as RAY", that's it, the means through which it's obtained aren't really important, it's admittedly just mumbo jumbo, Snake even remarks it.

I wouldn't say almost exploding, he just kinda, goes, he floats up and then a white flash with a sfx plays and he's gone, he could be in pain sure, in fact I'd be surprised if he wasn't but I wouldn't say exploding or even almost exploding

Not exploding, but it's a far cry from what we've seen for The Boss, which was a simple fade, the very same type of fade Sorrow himself displays after attacking Mantis

It'd be soul manip either way, in fact he should have soul manip for a **** ton of reasons, I just don't think it's soul destruction, way to vague to say as much and there's no real way to confirm or look into it, unless some guide says something about it or the game's script.

I mean, it HAS to be Soul Manip, because Soul Destruction doesn't exist as an ability by itself, the BFR would basically be the same as a soul destruction, maybe even better, because it would bypass the soul-regen shenanigans many characters have

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TL;DR
RAY was conventionally faster than REX, and "having a higher mobility output" would be completely pointless because RAY would still be faster to the point where REX couldn't touch it. You're acting as if "boosting REX's throughput" couldn't POSSIBLY also make REX conventionally faster, which is not true. To me, you're just reading too much into Otacon's mumbo jumbo and not enough into the important info of "I made REX as fast and agile as RAY"

Mantis' "vanquishment" was displayed differently from others in the series, but other than that, The Sorrow would still get Soul Manip because Soul Destruction doesn't exist as an ability and if it wasn't destruction it was BFR, which is functionally the same,

 

[Twellas]

Chariot, the one rejecting it, is now neutral with IR. As for type 2, it's limited cause it does incapacitate him, but his regen has a delay and he survives all his injuries.

uuhhh not really limited, because there's always the bullet in the head feat (no way it didn't pierce, because bullets universally harm characters on Volgin's tier in the verse and Volgin is never displayed to be bulletproof), it's just that the lightning did damage to him that was above his "Type 2 level", so to speak, after all, being completely fried from the inside out>a bullet to the head

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh I thought it was Vamp you were talking about. Idk about it, the bullet could have just left a passing wound, and even IRL it's perfectly possible for headshots not to reach the brain.

 

[Twellas]

nope, it's almost in the very middle of his forehead, no way it could not have dealt lethal damage

 

[Chariot190]

But RAY is conventionally faster than REX, the only way REX could beat it is by becoming conventionally faster

Except that is quite literally not what happened, his throughput increased, we know what throughout is, this increase allows him to perform more actions in a shorter timeframe, this allowed him to mitigate the speed difference between itself and RAY. This is all that occurred.

but this isn't "becoming faster", and would be completely irrelevant to the fight, RAY is simply faster than REX, REX having "a higher mobility output" would be completely pointless, RAY would still run circles around it

It is becoming faster though? Increasing the throughput of something by definition increases the thing's speed, the issue here lies in one's definition of speed, becoming faster doesn't always mean something like increasing the raw speed of the action itself. When Otacon says that REX's speed and mobility will increase, he isn't wrong nor is he lying, he's just not saying his speed is increasing in the way the wiki defines speed. Yes, RAY is faster but you're acting like RAY is so much faster that REX would never have a chance against it normally, even if RAY is like 2x faster than REX physically, a drastic increase in throughout would do a lot to mitigate the difference and allow REX to keep up. Also RAY actually is faster than REX in the fight itself, it's dodges and the like are visually a bit faster regardless.

Not really, "agile" has nothing to do with the amount of stuff you do in a given timeframe, it's about how you do it, what you claim Otacon is doing couldn't possibly make REX more agile, because it'd be the same hunk of metal who instead of stomping 2 times in like 30 seconds stomps 3 times.

It does when the command to dodge, run, retaliate and more is processed faster allowing it do those actions in subsequent order in a smaller timeframe. Stomping was just an example, this applies to literally every single thing REX does, which would of course increase agility if he can process and do more commands in a smaller timeframe.

But simply put, if REX's mechanical speed wasn't effected it wouldn't have stood a chance against RAY. Doing more stuff in a given timeframe is completely pointless if the stuff you're doing is still severely slower than your opponent.

That's only true if RAY is ludicrously faster than normal REX, he isn't, it is faster but it isn't literally so much faster that REX would be completely incapable of doing anything to it. You can't say he wouldn't have stood a chance against RAY without a mechanical increase in speed as the difference between REX and RAY isn't even drastic enough to warrant that in the first place.

And you're talking as if it's impossible that boosting REX's throughput also made it mechanically faster, there's no way of knowing that REX couldn't have become conventionally faster due to it, and there's absolutely no way that the mechanic you are describing would make it "agile".

I mean, it would be impossible, throughput is by definition entirely lag and processing related, it wouldn't have any effect on the mechanics of the machine itself. It would make it more agile, as it can input more commands in a smaller time and then do said commands in a smaller timeframe as there's less of a gap between action 1,2,3,4,etc. If normally it takes REX 1 minute to walk 10 steps, fire his gun, dodge and then fire his beam but after the throughput amp he can take 100 steps, dodge, fire his gun, dodge, his beam, dodge, jump, cqc, counter, missile attack, dodge, and then run, in half the time, that;d be an increase in mobility and agility, f there's less time between every single action he does this would give him an effective increase in speed, mobility, agility, and more, just not in the snese his raw speed is actually increasing.

I honestly think you're reading way too much into it: We know for a fact that RAY is conventionally faster than REX, and Otacon does something to make REX "As fast and agile as RAY", that's it, the means through which it's obtained aren't really important, it's admittedly just mumbo jumbo, Snake even remarks it.

I'm not though, Otacon tells us exactly what is happening, he even tells us how he's increasing the throughput, we know exactly what was happening there. RAY is probably conventionally faster then REX, Otacon does do something to increase his speed and mobility, but not in a conventional way. The means of which are extremely important, I'm sorry but I can't ignore essentially the entire codec. Snake remarks on it being techno babble because he doesn't understand what Otacon is even saying, he says so himself he doesn't understand the tech stuff, that's a normal thing with Snake too if we threw out every tech related thing and ignored how it worked everytime Snake didn't really understand how it worked, half the tech in the verse would have zero explanation as we'd ignore most of it as Snake doesnt get it.
Throughput was what was increased, we know what throughput is, the throughput is what allowed it to keep up with RAY as the throughput made it effectively faster and increased it's mobility, which, is actually accurate, but not in the sense of some sort of speed buff like Kaioken.

Not exploding, but it's a far cry from what we've seen for The Boss, which was a simple fade, the very same type of fade Sorrow himself displays after attacking Mantis

He wasn't forcefully trying to make The Boss go away though? The Boss isnt really the best example. He obviously isn't forcefully sending him self anywhere too. Homnestly Mantis' fade actually does hold similarities to them fading, it's just what leads up to the fade that is drastically different.

I mean, it HAS to be Soul Manip, because Soul Destruction doesn't exist as an ability by itself, the BFR would basically be the same as a soul destruction, maybe even better, because it would bypass the soul-regen shenanigans many characters have

Yeah, it'd be soul manip at the end of the day, I'm mostly talking semantics here in how it's described on the profile. If BFR is better then it's better, I'm just trying to be accurate is all, if it's better or worse in regards to matches aint my priority. But yeah, it is soul manip, and he has a lot of it too.

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tldr
REX's throughput increase very well would increase its speed and mobility, Otacon isn't lying when he says that, the only issue here lies in how we define speed, there's raw effective speed but that isn't what is being increased when Otacon says his speed was increased, he isn't going from like mach 100 to mach 800 type of thing, his speed, in the sense of how much he can do in a timeframe is increased, this applies to every action he can do which would increase mobility as well. The argument that it must be his raw speed or RAY would blitz him doesn't work because the difference between REX and RAY isn't large enough to warrant that to begin with. Otacon's mumbojumbo is just as important as the other line (it's literally the same sentence and 80% of the codec is him explaining it), it being techno babble doesn't discredit it or make it wrong.

Mantis' vanquishment is different, but that meaning his soul was destroyed is a bit of jump in logic, there's far to many variables here and alternatives for something like that to be blatantly stated, a soul being in pain before floating upwards and vanishing. It could be BFR and I'm leaning more towards that, it's effectiveness doesn't matter much to me, I'm just concerned with the accuracy of the profile.

 

[Chariot190]

In regards to the REX speed thing, I can't really budge on that one, Otacon tells us exactly what he's doing and the mechanics of it, the only real issue we have is the word speed being used and how it's defined, sorry but I'm almost certain that speed in this instance isn't talking raw wiki speed, but I also feel arguing about it is completely redundant and won't get us anywhere so I'm just gonna go and say whatever is decided by majority in this regard works for me.

 

[Chariot190]

Most of the potentially controversial I mean. Simple ones such as Armstrong resisting Mind manipulation might be okay unless I'm not sure why that's controversial. But the bigger levels such as Immortality type 2 or Mid-High Regen both seem pretty iffy, or very iffy in the latter's case. And Instinctive reactions are already brought up rejections on the previous thread.

For mid-high, do you mean for TMOF? That one is pretty straight forward, I even managed to get footage of it that I can post if need be, it went from a maybe to "yeah that ****** gets steamed", it's straightforward. And for IR, I was the person who was against them originally, I'm indifferent if not leaning towards ok now, a bit more information and feats from Snake came to light that builds a more concrete basis for him having it.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm neutral/in favor of TMOF's regen

Neutral towards REX's speed, leaning towards it being a bit of both, but mostly ""reflexes""

Mind Manip resistance for best boy seems fairly straightforward though I'd put a "likely" there just to be sure, we can't be fully sure of it after all

Immortality type 2, nah man that bullet doesn't seem like it went in the brain, especially since it's at a slight angle, and it's very small, which indicates it isn't from a large rifle or a sniper weapon, but a smaller gun that'd have lost some penetration with the distance.

 

[Twellas]

Immortality type 2, nah man that bullet doesn't seem like it went in the brain, especially since it's at a slight angle, and it's very small, which indicates it isn't from a large rifle or a sniper weapon

It's not really at an angle at all, it's squarely near the middle of his forehead, and the weapon that's generally used in this section (Snake uses it in the cutscene right before the fight) is a Dragunov, a sniper rifle, and the hole isn't small at all, it's almost the size of his eye

 

[Chariot190]

and it's very small,

It's actually very big, not like anti armored vehicle caliber but still large. That's a huge bullet hole (i mean, you can compare it to the high caliber bullets he's wearing in the same screencap), don't forget Volgin is a big lad. And the rising and indentation of the skin actually suggests a somewhat deep perforation. Though idk,

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair enough on the size, but it still looks like it went in an angle, I find it perfectly plausible that it just embedded itself in the skull without reaching the brain.

 

[Chariot190]

Fair enough on the size, but it still looks like it went in an angle, I find it perfectly plausible that it just embedded itself in the skull without reaching the brain.

It is an angle, but it's an angle that's aimed inward towards his head, not outward. Honestly unsure, you know, i could probably figure it out right now and crosscheck things but I honestly don't feel like looking at irl bullet perforations and gore first thing in the morning so that's gonna have to wait.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I can't blame you for that mate, don't force yourself through that. I'm fine with Immortality though I still don't agree.

 

[Twellas]

about the Immortality type 2, TMOF would 100% get it, I'd say Volgin's is a bit more complex, because we know for a fact he has it, the problem is "is it combat applicable?" I'd personally say yes, but it's likely more of a "likely" situation.

About the Regen, it's not even up fro debate that he gets smoked and doesn't teleport, you can literally see it here (Chariot recorded this). It's regen and not something like summoning because we know from later in the story that Volgin's "og" body is still there, so he must have regenerated and it being dependant on Mantis doesn't matter because tbh Kid Mantis should be part of TMOF's standard equipment given how he works.

 

[Arcker123]

it being dependant on Mantis doesn't matter because tbh Kid Mantis should be part of TMOF's standard equipment given how he works.

Would this work the other way around

 

[Chariot190]

Would this work the other way around

You mean TMOF being Mantis' equipment? No. The characters in MGSV use and puppet Mantis if that makes any sense, almost like they possess Mantis through Mantis's own powers. Mantis hasn't learned how to control his power yet so he's super susceptible to being controlled, and everyone in game makes use of that. Ocelot even goes on record to say that everything Mantis did that was bad wasn't his fault, he was being controlled.

 

[Twellas]

We are told in MGS5 that Mantis' powers work by parasiting off of a host with powerful negative emotions in a way where Mantis' ego completely shuts off and the host can use him as a sort of mouthpiece, using all of his powers through him.

 

[Twellas]

So no, Mantis having TMOF as equipment is out of the question entirely

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think people can be added as equipment.

 

[Twellas]

he technically stops being a person when he leeches off of someone, his ego shuts off

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, I don't think that really counts as him no longer being one.