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Hey
Long time no see
After the shitfest that was the previous thread, I thought it would be best if we all chilled and wennt with a (relatively) non-controversial CRT: the abilities, the new profiles and the character changes, which were almost all universally accepted.
Let's repeat everything just for the sake of clarity:
Big Boss: Healing (medium and heavy injuries, healing is a whole mechanic in MGS3, no need to explain this), Accelerated Development (Skill and Statistics; went from being severely less skilled than The Boss to being at least comparable to her in a short timeframe, with The Boss herself confirming that he had gotten both stronger and more skilled since their last fight), Perception Manipulation (via Reflex Mode), Camouflage (Don't think i need to explain this), Social influencing (he's a legendary warrior, and soldiers are incredibly attracted to him, showing nothing short of fanatical loyalty towards him, charmed Ocelot after a short fight, to the point where he basically plotted the entirety of the MGS story just to bring him back to life), Sound Manipulation (The Spirit camo makes his steps completely silent and the Sneaking Suit dampens sound all around), Extrasensory Perception (via Sonic Eye and much of his equipment), Non Physical Interaction (can harm The Sorrow's ghosts throughout the bossfight). Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid Snake, resisted Gene's mind manipulation), Minor resistance to Precognition (Ursula and Elisa couldn't agree on what his future would be, with their predictions being 100% accurate and never diverging), Analytical prediction (defeated Null, who could read muscle movements), Radiations (just like The Boss, he was an atomic-test subject, and as such, resistant to radiations), Sleep Inducement (resists The End's sleeping darts, which are even more powerful than his own, which are themselves capable of instantly putting people to sleep), Enhanced senses (the sneaking suit prevents him from being seen via thermal scanner).
Raiden: Accelerated Development (Skill, he became proficient with the HF Blade after a few minutes of using it, and we know from one of his Codec calls in MGR that he had never used a sword before), Air Manipulation (via Thunder Strike), Attack Reflection (can eject projectiles imbedded in his chest, also via Parry). Resistance to: Paralysis Inducement (can break free from Vamp's paralysis), Analytical Prediction (beat Vamp despite him being able to predict his movements by looking at his muscles)
The Boss: Social influencing (Has a magnetic personality, capable of charming and fascinating those around her, to the point where she was trusted and feared by Volgin off her reputation alone), Enhanced Senses (she can detect opponents via smelling their sweat and gunpowder), Resistance to: Radiations (she was the first person to be sent in space, because she could resist the cosmic rays without dying), Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun)
Solid Snake: Status Effect Inducement (just like Big Boss, from much of his equipment such as the Stun Knife), Camouflage (self explanatory), Accelerated Development (Skill, scaling from Big Boss, went from being skill-stomped by Ocelot to being able to contend with him), Supernatural Willpower (Naomi states that Snake shouldn't even be able to stand due to the state of his body, his strength of will keeps him together), Fouth-Wall Awareness (displayed countless times throughout the series, such as when he nods at the player in Twin Snakes, or when he recalls his game-overs in MGS4), Self Sustenance (Type 2, Limited Type 3, Snake's nanomachines replenish adrenaline, nutrition and sugar in his bloodstream. He was also injected with benzedrine, which keep him operational without needing to sleep for at leas 12 hours), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Enhanced senses (his Octo-camo masks his thermal reading), Precognition (It's made quite clear through the fight that Psycho Mantis CAN read Snake's mind, he outright does it here, but he couldn't read his future. His explaination for why this happens is that "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment", so from this we gather that Psycho Mantis can't read the future for someone who "lost his future". Psycho Mantis states that the moment he dove into his father's mind and saw that he wanted him that was when he lost his past and future, he then procedes to tell Snake "I see you've suffered the same trauma"; him saying "you are the same as us" also tells us that all the members of FOXHOUND are in the same situation, which also makes sense, when we consider the fact that many of them had an experience similar to Mantis burning down his village and destroying his past: Ocelot completely abandoned his mother land, and Liquid... just look at MGS5), Illusion creation (broke free from Mantis' illusions), Analytical Prediction (defeated Gray Fox)
Ocelot: Accelerated Development (Skill, became comparable to EG Naked skill-wise, though it's unclear whether this development accured during the Snake Eater Mission or if it began after tthe Virtuous Mission, a week before Snake Eater), Cyborgization, Stealth Mastery, Mind and Memory Manipulation (not combat applicable, but he can use it either on himself or others, as seen with Venom), Resistance to: Precognition (justified above).
Volgin: Danmaku (can shoot out many bullets simultaneously all around him), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), High Temperatures (tanks fire).
Psycho Mantis: Immortality (Type 6. His ghost can posses inanimate objects, possessed Screaming Mantis after his death), Intangibility (displayed many times throughout MGS5), Power Bestowal: (Displayed in MGS5), Resistance to: High Temperatures (can stai right next to The Man on Fire without ripercussions), Precognition (justified above).
Vamp: Immortality (Type 2. He survives fatal injuries even before regenerating them, such as getting stabbed through the heart), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Raiden's tranq-gun in MGS2).
Venom Snake: Minor Body Control (due to his arm, which he can shoot out and move in unnatural ways), BFR (via Fulton-portals), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, via various means), Enhanced senses (via sonar), Resistance to Disease manipulation (resists the effects of the SKULL's mist).
Liquid: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid and Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Precognition (justified above).
Solidus: Statistics amplification (his suit can "bulk up" and enhance his strength), Elasticity (with his "octopus" arms), Explosion manipulation (his arms can shoot rockets), Electricity manipulation (his arms can use electricity), Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss)
Gray Fox: Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (will be justified below, but here it is )
All Modern-Nanomachines Users (MGS4-MGR): Resistance to: Empathic and Pain Manipulation (nanomachines can suppress hormones in order to suppress emotions, along with neutralizing pain), Self Sustenance (Type 2, limited 3; should scale above Snake's first-gen nanomachines), Nanotechnology (self explanatory I think).
The characters to get these abilities would be Vamp, Ocelot, and All MGR characters.
All MGR Characters (Cyborgs): Martial Arts Mastery (self explanatory), Immortality (Type 2. We are told by Raiden that the Gemini, 2 very low-tier cyborgs, survived their encounter with Sundowner, which left both of them cut into pieces, with one of the 2 being decapitated. Dok states that the Winds of Destruction can even survive complete physical destruction as long as the brain stays intact, which allows them to inhabit a spare body), Self Sustenance (Type 1. Cyborgs can operate for short periods of time without breathing, but in case they are unable to breathe for whatever reason, they are equipped with a supply of liquid oxygen in their bloodstream to keep them going. Likely Type 2 and Limited Type 3, their nanomachines should scale vastly above Snake's), At Least Partial Inorganic Physiology (Raiden, along with all of the WODs have a completely cybernetic body, whose only organic part is the brain. Blade Wolf should get fully inorganic physiology due to not having any organic parts).
POTENTIALLY CONTROVERSIAL ABILITIES
Big Boss: BFR (with normal Fulton, it takes the opponent about 500 feet into the air, this could be considered a BFR, but it would be reinforced if my second "controversial ability" gets approved), He should get Venom's equipment (he was still in contact with the Mother Base crew, so it's not a stretch to say that he would have had access to their weapons and equipment).
Volgin: Immortality (Type 2. He has a gunshot wound in his forehead during his last fight, Ocelot states that modern medicine couldn't explain how he was alive after his MGS3 encounter with Snake)
Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions (instinctively uses CQC when he's getting attacked, despite him actively trying not to use it)
Man on Fire: Regeneration (Mid-High. Upon getting sprayed with water, his body is vaporized. The reason why I put it as "controversial" is that it's not made very clear whether this is regeneration or just him teleporting away, however, we can hear him scream in pain as he gets vaporized, so I don't think it's just him teleporting, especially when this effect never happens again despite him teleporting around a whole lot), Immortality (Type 2, 3, 7 and 8. Type 2 comes from his "Volgin-self", 3 from the possible Regeneration, 7 from the fact that he's usually refered to as a "dead man kept alive by his grudge", and 8 comes from Mantis being able to seeming materialize and "activate" him on a whim)
Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)
Vamp: A "Possibly Higher" Key for his Regeneration (Snake implies that anything short of complete physical vaporization won't be enough to surpass Vamp's regeneration. Now, THIS is very iffy, but I decided to still present it just because if it was approved it would be huge. The statement is pretty clear really, it's just a matter of "is it enough to grant Vamp this ability?", also, we never really saw the upper level to Vamp's regen, so there's that.
Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (politicians who know secret codes are given surgical implants that allow them to resist Psycho Mantis' mind-probe. Now, does Armstrong know some secret code? Maybe, he's a senator, he might very well be aware of something that would warrant a mental insulation, we simply don't have a canonical statement about it)
Monsoon: Large Size (Type 0, he can elongate his arms and legs via magnetism)
PROFILE CHANGES
Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect: the justification for Extraordinary Genius on the wiki is "At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers", as his profile itself states, Ocelot basically orchestrated most of the MGS plot, an unimmaginably complex plan, with an unbelievable amount of variables, that ended up working exactly as he had planned. He also outsmarted the Shadow Patriots, a group of Super AIs responsible for basically running every aspect of the modern world, along with being at least 2 steps ahead of every world government at any point in time. Along with this, he's also just about as skilled as Big Boss in h2h combat, he's quite possibly the best sharpshooter in the verse if we only consider skill and ignore physiological advantages; he's an expert in hypnosis, psychotherapy, drugs, espionage and interrogation, capable of doublethinking.
This same profile-change can be argued for The Boss. The Boss' leadership, good judgment and will were deemed sharp enough for her consciousness to be taken as model for an AI charged of singlehandedly managing the world's nuke deterrance. Big Boss could be argued aswell, but from what i know, he doesn't really have this kind of feat.
His justification for his enhanced senses is off: The ability is actually allright, it's just that he didn't smell that Tatyana was a spy, he just smelt the gasoline on her clothes
Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off: I have no idea where "he tends to underestimate others" and "he's not academically smart" come from. If anything. both Big Boss and Venom, I'll talk about his weakness section being off later, have a tendency to NOT underestimate others, such as Naked being very much weary of EVA even after she helped him multiple times, or Venom dislocating Eli's arm, someone who was objectively not even close to being a threat to him, just to be sure that he wouldn't mess around anymore. I guess this concept of Big Boss "underestimating people" comes from him underestimating Snake in MG1, but for one, that's not enough to warrant a whole ass weakness, it only happened once and doesn't present itself as a negative trend he has, and 2, it wasn't even him who underestimated Snake, it was Venom, so this weakness makes absolutely no sense. Him not being academically smart just baffles me, most if not all of these scenes are for comic relief, and we have instances of him referencing Descartes, along with his creating and supervising multiple successful military nations. At most he's not knowledgeable about pop culture, not knowing about any movie, and thinking that Strangelove had actually starred in the Strangelove movie.
Venom: His weaknesses are completely off: He has the same weaknesses as Big Boss, which I've already debunked, but ironically enough, Venom's profile doesn't have ANY of Venom's huge, glaring and unique weaknesses: the Ground Zeroes accident left him filled with metallic shards near his heart and brain, the big shard on his forehead may cause permanent brain damage if moved. He suffered enough brain damage that he forgot how to speak russian and has hallucinations due to the shard pressing on his optic nerve. The current weakness section should be changed to reflect all of these elements, which would be extremely relevant in VS threads btw, since anyone who has metal manip can just instantly kill him by messing with his brain or heart shards.
Psycho Mantis: He actually can break the 4th wall on PS3: Very simple: Psycho Mantis' profile states that "his ability to break the fourth wall only works on the first generation Playstation's hardware", but this is simply incorrect, he CAN break the 4th wall in MGS4 (he talksa bout memory cards, controllers and hardware, which are all clearly 4th-wall-breaking elements), it's simply that he cannot EFFECT the 4th wall anymore, his weakness section should be updated accordingly.
Higher Range: He's stated to have a "reception range" of 3 miles
Genius Level Intellect: The FOXHOUND unit along with the Genome Army is wholly composed of geniuses with IQs over 180, this would obviously include Psycho Mantis. This statement isn't the only supporting evidence for such a tier; he was the one who concucted the entirety of the Shadow Moses plot, which ended up working even after his death and the FOXDIE virus.
Vamp: Missing weakness: Vamp's profile should list the fact that he has a deathwish and seeks someone capable of ending his life for good. This is kind of the whole point of his character in MGS2 and 4, I have no idea how this was not already included
Liquid: His durability justification is completely off: The tiering is completely fine of course, but his justification is "Survived his Hind D crashing, multiple Stinger missiles to REX's cockpit, its subsequent destruction, which knocked out Snake, without issue, and similarly tanked a fall from the top of REX that would've killed Snake, making him more durable"; the part about the Hind D and Stinger missiles is fine (although I have a bone to pick with the concept of Snake's weaponry scaling to REX, but i'll get to that later), but the part about REX' destruction knocking Snake out is simply inaccurate, since we see that he got knocked out due to violently hitting his head, there were no signs of him getting knocked-out before that. The part about the fall is just dumb. We have no proof other than his word that Snake would die to that fall, and if he actually did, it would be complete and utter PIS, it's far more likely that Liquid's statement is simply a way to give the player a reason why Snake can't just jump down and run away. Liquid already has more than enough reasons to have that level of durability, these justifications are both inaccurate and superfluous.
Armstrong: His weakness is off: I'll cut straight to the chase: "His nanomachines can run out of power" should be removed. The aforementioned Kojima interview is nowhere to be found, it's never mentioned neither in-game nor on the strategy books and the concept of "nanomachines running out of power" was never a thing, since even obsolete Gen 1 nanomachines recharge via body-heat and don't run out of power; one could argue that Armstrong's nanomachines are more active than Snake's, but I could say that Vamp's are even more active (I think anyone would agree with me that regenerating a splattered brain is a much more complex a task than just "hardening"), and they were never even remotely implied to run out of power. This notion goes against every know property nanomachines have, is not present in any canon source and the interview can't be found anywhere, and even if it were, by virtue of contradicting the established canon of the verse, it couldn't be taken as valid, especially since Kojima didn't even write the story.
The MGR Cast: Their speed scaling is a mess: I'm responsible for this, and I'm sorry, but I don't know what I was thinking while I made those changes. The WODS scale to Raiden's Sub-Rel rating, which comes from Armstrong, who got this tier by blocking an attack from Raiden that is 10 times faster than base Raiden, which means that Base Raiden's current speed scales to an attack which is canonically ten times faster than Raiden by its very nature; this makes absolutely no sense, especially when we consider that Armstrong is supposed to be slower than Raiden and there is no canonical proof of Raiden going Ripper Mode in that fight. I propose that we at least revert their speed to "At least Missevely Hypersonic+" and then add the various keys for BM's multipliers. Now, since a future CRT is going to propose a new speed-feat, this "Massively Hypersonic+" could become something else, but that's an argument for a later time.
Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key: Why would this be needed? because MGS4 REX is faster than his MGS1 version, fast enough to match RAY. But RAY is just as fast as MGS1 REX, right? Why would that be needed? Well, I'll talk about that later, but i think you can get a hint from the next change to REX' profile.
Missing Weaponry: Free Electron Laser: Otacon states that REX has a Free Electron Laser mounted on his belly, which is what it uses here, btw. Now, according to this, this laser's speed is 0.9999998c, which i don't know if we can round up to LS or we gotta keep at Relativistic+. The addition of this weapon also influences REX' combat speed, obviously, which would become "Likely Subsonic, Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed with Rail Gun, Relativistic+ (or LS, we'll see) with FEL".
Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY: I realize this is a big thing to say, but hear me out: Otacon outright states that none of Snake's weapons (this would include the Stinger, since he already had the at that point, he had used it to take down the Hind D) can pierce REX' armor. What Otacon proposes is to destroy the Radome, so that Liquid has to open the cockpit, and Snake can bypass the armor. But doesn't this mean that the Stinger can actually damage REX? Not really, Otacon himself admits that he had willingly given REX a weak spot (the Radome) as a way to make it "complete". Pretty lousy excuse, but that's what it is, and it makes sense, because if the Stinger can damage REX, and Liquid can canonically tank Stinger missiles in that same fight, it would mean that Liquid is just as durable as REX, which is stupid. So no, the Stinger doesn't scale to 8-A, and MGS1 Snake's weaponry doesn't quite reach that level of power. What about Raiden though? After all, he outright destroys several RAY units, right? Yeah, that's true, and my issue is not with the way in which he takes them down, my issue is that the RAY units Raiden fought don't really have a reason to be 8-A. The justification on the profile is that it's "Designed to destroy REX units and is comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden", let's analyze this piece by piece. "Designed to destroy REX units"; this is true, but there's a huge but: this is only true of the original Marines model, which was stolen by Ocelot and later used in MGS4, the RAY units Raiden fought were yes based on the Marine's concept, but it was redesigned to guard Arsenal Gear, instead of fighting other Metal Gears; this means that they were redesigned with the idea of fighting normal human tech such as tanks, jets etc, the Patriots had no reason to optimize RAY against other Metal Gears, since there were no other operationa Metal Gears around during MGS2. It doesn't help that these RAYs were completely demolished by Solidus' P90 which, no matter how you slice it, CANNOT be even comparable to Snake's Stinger. TL;DR: There's no way to be certain that the version of RAY Raiden fought scales to REX, and in their only notable appearance they have a feat that suggests otherwise. The problem with "comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden" is quite evident: this is MGS2, MGS4 Raiden wasn't even a thing at that time.
So to sum this argument up: Snake only damaged REX via a weak spot, and the RAY units Raiden took down don't scale to REX.
Metal Gear RAY: New Keys: In light of the aforementioned changes, it's quite clear that some changes have to be made to RAY's keys. My proposal is that we remove the MGS2 key and only leave the MGS4 and MGR ones, with a note down below that specifies how the models that Raiden fought in MGS2 can't be properly tiered and that the unit that was stated to be made as an anti-REX weapon was the one used in MGS4.
NEW PROFILES
Peace Walker:
Abilities: Large size (type 0, it's 25 meters tall in his bipedal mode and around 16 meters when in its quadrupedal mode), Inorganic Physiology, Genius Intelligence (has an expert AI based on The Boss), Fire Manipulation (has a flamethrower), Explosion Manipulation (via missiles, rockets and mines), Electromagnetism Manipulation (it has a EM pulse field), Acrobatics (can jump very high), Sound Manipulation (can let out high pitched screams capable of stunning its opponents), Paralysis Inducement (has a paralysing beam), Self Destruction (Has a self-destruct function).
AP: At Least (whatever Big Boss' ap end up being) physically (can harm Big Boss with its leg-swipes), At Least Low 7-B with Intercontinental Missiles (Peace Walker's missiles have one-Megaton warheads, Missiles usually have more than 1 warhead on them, up to 14, hence the "at least" rating), At Least 7-B with Self-Destruction, likely far higher (Peace Walker has a Self-Destruct function with a massive Hydrogen Bomb that's more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, Real Life Hydrogen Bombs could pack anywhere from 100 Megatons all the way up to several Gigatons, hence the "likely far higher", especially since PW's Hydrogen Bomb is noted to be "massive", PW's H bomb could very well be 6-C).
Speed: Peak Human Travel Speed (Can reach 25 mph in running speed) With High Hypersonic+ Combat speed and Massively Hypersonic Reactions (Scaling from Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Class K (Can support its own weight, which is 500 short tons, and jump at incredibly high speeds).
Striking Strength: At Least (whatever Big Boss' dura ends up being) (Can harm Big Boss)
Durability: At Least (whatever tier Big Boss' weapons end up being) (Completely impervious to anything but Big Boss' best weaponry), Possibly 7-B for its Inner Barrier (Huey was extremely unsure whether a nuke could breach the inner barrier or not, stating that it was designed to be "as strong as a bomb shelter" and to "withstand a nuclear war", since MG is a more scientifically advanced setting, it would be fair to assume that nukes in MG woud be equivalent to our high-tier nukes).
Stamina: Unknown, possibly Infinite (It's completely mechanical and doesn't seem to need any fuel to operate).
Range: Tens of meters with melee attacks, hundreds of meters with rockets and weaponry, at least tens of kilometers with Hydrogen Bomb, planetary with Intercontinental missiles (can hit anywhere on earth).
Standard Equipment: Missiles, S-mines, Flamethrower, EM pulse-field, Paralysis beam, Intercontinental Missiles, Hydrogen Bomb
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius (PW is an Expert AI based on The Boss).
Weaknesses: Can only launch a nuclear missile or attack as self defense, shutting down the Mammal Pod will greatly hinder its thought pattern and combat capabilities
The Sorrow:
Abilities: Intangibility and Inorganic Physiology (Immaterial, type 2; he is a ghost), Invisibility (only visible by those he wishes to be seen by), Self Sustenance (1,2 and 3 due to being a ghost), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 7 and 6 scaling from Psycho Mantis), Death and Life Manipulation (Kills upon making contact with his corpse, brough Naked Snake back to life), BFR (Can take people into the "other side", the world of the dead), Summoning (He summons the ghosts of those killed by the target, but he can also summon his own ghosts), Power Absorption (Can channel the spirits of the dead and utilize their skills), Minor Reality Warping (Can crack and repair his glasses, as well as crying blood from his left eye and materializing flying clocks), True Flight (he flies around), Teleportation (He regularly appears from thin air), Weather Manipulation (It rains whenever he appears), Energy Projection (displayed here), Possession (Scaling from Psycho Mantis), 4th Wall Breaking (Displayed continuously throughout MGS3, such as him remarking "back again?" after the player dies and loads the game), Soul Manipulation (Vanquished Psycho Mantis' soul), Precognition (foretold Big Boss' fate of being killed by his son, scaling from Psycho Mantis).
AP: Likely (whatever Big Boss' ap ends up being) (can harm Big Boss with his Energy Projection), bypasses durability with most of his abilities.
Speed: Likely Supersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reactions (likely scales to Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Unknown.
Striking Strength: Unknown.
Durability: Unknown (Intangibility makes him hard to hit and immortality makes him hard to kill).
Stamina: Likely Infinite (His stamina bar is completely empty, just like his health bar).
Range: Extended melee range with Energy Projection, tens of meters with soul destruction.
Standard Equipment: His own corpse.
Intelligence: Genius (As a member of the Cobra Unit in life, he was an incredibly skilled soldier, capable of predicting the course of any battle by talking to the dead beforehand), in death, he seems to have acquired a sort of Omniscience, showing knowledge on things he would have no true way of knowing, such as perfectly knowing (down to the tens of seconds) the time it would take the C3 to detonate, or knowing the combination to Snake's cell-door before Snake had even been assigned to said cell.
Weaknesses: Consumed by sorrow, doesn't usually interfere with the material world.
I might have made some mistakes because of COURSE i didn't type it all again, i just copy-pasted the old version and corrected it accordingly to our new discoveries and the previous reception.
Long time no see
After the shitfest that was the previous thread, I thought it would be best if we all chilled and wennt with a (relatively) non-controversial CRT: the abilities, the new profiles and the character changes, which were almost all universally accepted.
Let's repeat everything just for the sake of clarity:
Big Boss: Healing (medium and heavy injuries, healing is a whole mechanic in MGS3, no need to explain this), Accelerated Development (Skill and Statistics; went from being severely less skilled than The Boss to being at least comparable to her in a short timeframe, with The Boss herself confirming that he had gotten both stronger and more skilled since their last fight), Perception Manipulation (via Reflex Mode), Camouflage (Don't think i need to explain this), Social influencing (he's a legendary warrior, and soldiers are incredibly attracted to him, showing nothing short of fanatical loyalty towards him, charmed Ocelot after a short fight, to the point where he basically plotted the entirety of the MGS story just to bring him back to life), Sound Manipulation (The Spirit camo makes his steps completely silent and the Sneaking Suit dampens sound all around), Extrasensory Perception (via Sonic Eye and much of his equipment), Non Physical Interaction (can harm The Sorrow's ghosts throughout the bossfight). Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid Snake, resisted Gene's mind manipulation), Minor resistance to Precognition (Ursula and Elisa couldn't agree on what his future would be, with their predictions being 100% accurate and never diverging), Analytical prediction (defeated Null, who could read muscle movements), Radiations (just like The Boss, he was an atomic-test subject, and as such, resistant to radiations), Sleep Inducement (resists The End's sleeping darts, which are even more powerful than his own, which are themselves capable of instantly putting people to sleep), Enhanced senses (the sneaking suit prevents him from being seen via thermal scanner).
Raiden: Accelerated Development (Skill, he became proficient with the HF Blade after a few minutes of using it, and we know from one of his Codec calls in MGR that he had never used a sword before), Air Manipulation (via Thunder Strike), Attack Reflection (can eject projectiles imbedded in his chest, also via Parry). Resistance to: Paralysis Inducement (can break free from Vamp's paralysis), Analytical Prediction (beat Vamp despite him being able to predict his movements by looking at his muscles)
The Boss: Social influencing (Has a magnetic personality, capable of charming and fascinating those around her, to the point where she was trusted and feared by Volgin off her reputation alone), Enhanced Senses (she can detect opponents via smelling their sweat and gunpowder), Resistance to: Radiations (she was the first person to be sent in space, because she could resist the cosmic rays without dying), Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun)
Solid Snake: Status Effect Inducement (just like Big Boss, from much of his equipment such as the Stun Knife), Camouflage (self explanatory), Accelerated Development (Skill, scaling from Big Boss, went from being skill-stomped by Ocelot to being able to contend with him), Supernatural Willpower (Naomi states that Snake shouldn't even be able to stand due to the state of his body, his strength of will keeps him together), Fouth-Wall Awareness (displayed countless times throughout the series, such as when he nods at the player in Twin Snakes, or when he recalls his game-overs in MGS4), Self Sustenance (Type 2, Limited Type 3, Snake's nanomachines replenish adrenaline, nutrition and sugar in his bloodstream. He was also injected with benzedrine, which keep him operational without needing to sleep for at leas 12 hours), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Enhanced senses (his Octo-camo masks his thermal reading), Precognition (It's made quite clear through the fight that Psycho Mantis CAN read Snake's mind, he outright does it here, but he couldn't read his future. His explaination for why this happens is that "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment", so from this we gather that Psycho Mantis can't read the future for someone who "lost his future". Psycho Mantis states that the moment he dove into his father's mind and saw that he wanted him that was when he lost his past and future, he then procedes to tell Snake "I see you've suffered the same trauma"; him saying "you are the same as us" also tells us that all the members of FOXHOUND are in the same situation, which also makes sense, when we consider the fact that many of them had an experience similar to Mantis burning down his village and destroying his past: Ocelot completely abandoned his mother land, and Liquid... just look at MGS5), Illusion creation (broke free from Mantis' illusions), Analytical Prediction (defeated Gray Fox)
Ocelot: Accelerated Development (Skill, became comparable to EG Naked skill-wise, though it's unclear whether this development accured during the Snake Eater Mission or if it began after tthe Virtuous Mission, a week before Snake Eater), Cyborgization, Stealth Mastery, Mind and Memory Manipulation (not combat applicable, but he can use it either on himself or others, as seen with Venom), Resistance to: Precognition (justified above).
Volgin: Danmaku (can shoot out many bullets simultaneously all around him), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), High Temperatures (tanks fire).
Psycho Mantis: Immortality (Type 6. His ghost can posses inanimate objects, possessed Screaming Mantis after his death), Intangibility (displayed many times throughout MGS5), Power Bestowal: (Displayed in MGS5), Resistance to: High Temperatures (can stai right next to The Man on Fire without ripercussions), Precognition (justified above).
Vamp: Immortality (Type 2. He survives fatal injuries even before regenerating them, such as getting stabbed through the heart), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Raiden's tranq-gun in MGS2).
Venom Snake: Minor Body Control (due to his arm, which he can shoot out and move in unnatural ways), BFR (via Fulton-portals), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, via various means), Enhanced senses (via sonar), Resistance to Disease manipulation (resists the effects of the SKULL's mist).
Liquid: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid and Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Precognition (justified above).
Solidus: Statistics amplification (his suit can "bulk up" and enhance his strength), Elasticity (with his "octopus" arms), Explosion manipulation (his arms can shoot rockets), Electricity manipulation (his arms can use electricity), Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss)
Gray Fox: Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (will be justified below, but here it is )
All Modern-Nanomachines Users (MGS4-MGR): Resistance to: Empathic and Pain Manipulation (nanomachines can suppress hormones in order to suppress emotions, along with neutralizing pain), Self Sustenance (Type 2, limited 3; should scale above Snake's first-gen nanomachines), Nanotechnology (self explanatory I think).
The characters to get these abilities would be Vamp, Ocelot, and All MGR characters.
All MGR Characters (Cyborgs): Martial Arts Mastery (self explanatory), Immortality (Type 2. We are told by Raiden that the Gemini, 2 very low-tier cyborgs, survived their encounter with Sundowner, which left both of them cut into pieces, with one of the 2 being decapitated. Dok states that the Winds of Destruction can even survive complete physical destruction as long as the brain stays intact, which allows them to inhabit a spare body), Self Sustenance (Type 1. Cyborgs can operate for short periods of time without breathing, but in case they are unable to breathe for whatever reason, they are equipped with a supply of liquid oxygen in their bloodstream to keep them going. Likely Type 2 and Limited Type 3, their nanomachines should scale vastly above Snake's), At Least Partial Inorganic Physiology (Raiden, along with all of the WODs have a completely cybernetic body, whose only organic part is the brain. Blade Wolf should get fully inorganic physiology due to not having any organic parts).
POTENTIALLY CONTROVERSIAL ABILITIES
Big Boss: BFR (with normal Fulton, it takes the opponent about 500 feet into the air, this could be considered a BFR, but it would be reinforced if my second "controversial ability" gets approved), He should get Venom's equipment (he was still in contact with the Mother Base crew, so it's not a stretch to say that he would have had access to their weapons and equipment).
Volgin: Immortality (Type 2. He has a gunshot wound in his forehead during his last fight, Ocelot states that modern medicine couldn't explain how he was alive after his MGS3 encounter with Snake)
Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions (instinctively uses CQC when he's getting attacked, despite him actively trying not to use it)
Man on Fire: Regeneration (Mid-High. Upon getting sprayed with water, his body is vaporized. The reason why I put it as "controversial" is that it's not made very clear whether this is regeneration or just him teleporting away, however, we can hear him scream in pain as he gets vaporized, so I don't think it's just him teleporting, especially when this effect never happens again despite him teleporting around a whole lot), Immortality (Type 2, 3, 7 and 8. Type 2 comes from his "Volgin-self", 3 from the possible Regeneration, 7 from the fact that he's usually refered to as a "dead man kept alive by his grudge", and 8 comes from Mantis being able to seeming materialize and "activate" him on a whim)
Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)
Vamp: A "Possibly Higher" Key for his Regeneration (Snake implies that anything short of complete physical vaporization won't be enough to surpass Vamp's regeneration. Now, THIS is very iffy, but I decided to still present it just because if it was approved it would be huge. The statement is pretty clear really, it's just a matter of "is it enough to grant Vamp this ability?", also, we never really saw the upper level to Vamp's regen, so there's that.
Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (politicians who know secret codes are given surgical implants that allow them to resist Psycho Mantis' mind-probe. Now, does Armstrong know some secret code? Maybe, he's a senator, he might very well be aware of something that would warrant a mental insulation, we simply don't have a canonical statement about it)
Monsoon: Large Size (Type 0, he can elongate his arms and legs via magnetism)
PROFILE CHANGES
Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect: the justification for Extraordinary Genius on the wiki is "At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers", as his profile itself states, Ocelot basically orchestrated most of the MGS plot, an unimmaginably complex plan, with an unbelievable amount of variables, that ended up working exactly as he had planned. He also outsmarted the Shadow Patriots, a group of Super AIs responsible for basically running every aspect of the modern world, along with being at least 2 steps ahead of every world government at any point in time. Along with this, he's also just about as skilled as Big Boss in h2h combat, he's quite possibly the best sharpshooter in the verse if we only consider skill and ignore physiological advantages; he's an expert in hypnosis, psychotherapy, drugs, espionage and interrogation, capable of doublethinking.
This same profile-change can be argued for The Boss. The Boss' leadership, good judgment and will were deemed sharp enough for her consciousness to be taken as model for an AI charged of singlehandedly managing the world's nuke deterrance. Big Boss could be argued aswell, but from what i know, he doesn't really have this kind of feat.
His justification for his enhanced senses is off: The ability is actually allright, it's just that he didn't smell that Tatyana was a spy, he just smelt the gasoline on her clothes
Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off: I have no idea where "he tends to underestimate others" and "he's not academically smart" come from. If anything. both Big Boss and Venom, I'll talk about his weakness section being off later, have a tendency to NOT underestimate others, such as Naked being very much weary of EVA even after she helped him multiple times, or Venom dislocating Eli's arm, someone who was objectively not even close to being a threat to him, just to be sure that he wouldn't mess around anymore. I guess this concept of Big Boss "underestimating people" comes from him underestimating Snake in MG1, but for one, that's not enough to warrant a whole ass weakness, it only happened once and doesn't present itself as a negative trend he has, and 2, it wasn't even him who underestimated Snake, it was Venom, so this weakness makes absolutely no sense. Him not being academically smart just baffles me, most if not all of these scenes are for comic relief, and we have instances of him referencing Descartes, along with his creating and supervising multiple successful military nations. At most he's not knowledgeable about pop culture, not knowing about any movie, and thinking that Strangelove had actually starred in the Strangelove movie.
Venom: His weaknesses are completely off: He has the same weaknesses as Big Boss, which I've already debunked, but ironically enough, Venom's profile doesn't have ANY of Venom's huge, glaring and unique weaknesses: the Ground Zeroes accident left him filled with metallic shards near his heart and brain, the big shard on his forehead may cause permanent brain damage if moved. He suffered enough brain damage that he forgot how to speak russian and has hallucinations due to the shard pressing on his optic nerve. The current weakness section should be changed to reflect all of these elements, which would be extremely relevant in VS threads btw, since anyone who has metal manip can just instantly kill him by messing with his brain or heart shards.
Psycho Mantis: He actually can break the 4th wall on PS3: Very simple: Psycho Mantis' profile states that "his ability to break the fourth wall only works on the first generation Playstation's hardware", but this is simply incorrect, he CAN break the 4th wall in MGS4 (he talksa bout memory cards, controllers and hardware, which are all clearly 4th-wall-breaking elements), it's simply that he cannot EFFECT the 4th wall anymore, his weakness section should be updated accordingly.
Higher Range: He's stated to have a "reception range" of 3 miles
Genius Level Intellect: The FOXHOUND unit along with the Genome Army is wholly composed of geniuses with IQs over 180, this would obviously include Psycho Mantis. This statement isn't the only supporting evidence for such a tier; he was the one who concucted the entirety of the Shadow Moses plot, which ended up working even after his death and the FOXDIE virus.
Vamp: Missing weakness: Vamp's profile should list the fact that he has a deathwish and seeks someone capable of ending his life for good. This is kind of the whole point of his character in MGS2 and 4, I have no idea how this was not already included
Liquid: His durability justification is completely off: The tiering is completely fine of course, but his justification is "Survived his Hind D crashing, multiple Stinger missiles to REX's cockpit, its subsequent destruction, which knocked out Snake, without issue, and similarly tanked a fall from the top of REX that would've killed Snake, making him more durable"; the part about the Hind D and Stinger missiles is fine (although I have a bone to pick with the concept of Snake's weaponry scaling to REX, but i'll get to that later), but the part about REX' destruction knocking Snake out is simply inaccurate, since we see that he got knocked out due to violently hitting his head, there were no signs of him getting knocked-out before that. The part about the fall is just dumb. We have no proof other than his word that Snake would die to that fall, and if he actually did, it would be complete and utter PIS, it's far more likely that Liquid's statement is simply a way to give the player a reason why Snake can't just jump down and run away. Liquid already has more than enough reasons to have that level of durability, these justifications are both inaccurate and superfluous.
Armstrong: His weakness is off: I'll cut straight to the chase: "His nanomachines can run out of power" should be removed. The aforementioned Kojima interview is nowhere to be found, it's never mentioned neither in-game nor on the strategy books and the concept of "nanomachines running out of power" was never a thing, since even obsolete Gen 1 nanomachines recharge via body-heat and don't run out of power; one could argue that Armstrong's nanomachines are more active than Snake's, but I could say that Vamp's are even more active (I think anyone would agree with me that regenerating a splattered brain is a much more complex a task than just "hardening"), and they were never even remotely implied to run out of power. This notion goes against every know property nanomachines have, is not present in any canon source and the interview can't be found anywhere, and even if it were, by virtue of contradicting the established canon of the verse, it couldn't be taken as valid, especially since Kojima didn't even write the story.
The MGR Cast: Their speed scaling is a mess: I'm responsible for this, and I'm sorry, but I don't know what I was thinking while I made those changes. The WODS scale to Raiden's Sub-Rel rating, which comes from Armstrong, who got this tier by blocking an attack from Raiden that is 10 times faster than base Raiden, which means that Base Raiden's current speed scales to an attack which is canonically ten times faster than Raiden by its very nature; this makes absolutely no sense, especially when we consider that Armstrong is supposed to be slower than Raiden and there is no canonical proof of Raiden going Ripper Mode in that fight. I propose that we at least revert their speed to "At least Missevely Hypersonic+" and then add the various keys for BM's multipliers. Now, since a future CRT is going to propose a new speed-feat, this "Massively Hypersonic+" could become something else, but that's an argument for a later time.
Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key: Why would this be needed? because MGS4 REX is faster than his MGS1 version, fast enough to match RAY. But RAY is just as fast as MGS1 REX, right? Why would that be needed? Well, I'll talk about that later, but i think you can get a hint from the next change to REX' profile.
Missing Weaponry: Free Electron Laser: Otacon states that REX has a Free Electron Laser mounted on his belly, which is what it uses here, btw. Now, according to this, this laser's speed is 0.9999998c, which i don't know if we can round up to LS or we gotta keep at Relativistic+. The addition of this weapon also influences REX' combat speed, obviously, which would become "Likely Subsonic, Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed with Rail Gun, Relativistic+ (or LS, we'll see) with FEL".
Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY: I realize this is a big thing to say, but hear me out: Otacon outright states that none of Snake's weapons (this would include the Stinger, since he already had the at that point, he had used it to take down the Hind D) can pierce REX' armor. What Otacon proposes is to destroy the Radome, so that Liquid has to open the cockpit, and Snake can bypass the armor. But doesn't this mean that the Stinger can actually damage REX? Not really, Otacon himself admits that he had willingly given REX a weak spot (the Radome) as a way to make it "complete". Pretty lousy excuse, but that's what it is, and it makes sense, because if the Stinger can damage REX, and Liquid can canonically tank Stinger missiles in that same fight, it would mean that Liquid is just as durable as REX, which is stupid. So no, the Stinger doesn't scale to 8-A, and MGS1 Snake's weaponry doesn't quite reach that level of power. What about Raiden though? After all, he outright destroys several RAY units, right? Yeah, that's true, and my issue is not with the way in which he takes them down, my issue is that the RAY units Raiden fought don't really have a reason to be 8-A. The justification on the profile is that it's "Designed to destroy REX units and is comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden", let's analyze this piece by piece. "Designed to destroy REX units"; this is true, but there's a huge but: this is only true of the original Marines model, which was stolen by Ocelot and later used in MGS4, the RAY units Raiden fought were yes based on the Marine's concept, but it was redesigned to guard Arsenal Gear, instead of fighting other Metal Gears; this means that they were redesigned with the idea of fighting normal human tech such as tanks, jets etc, the Patriots had no reason to optimize RAY against other Metal Gears, since there were no other operationa Metal Gears around during MGS2. It doesn't help that these RAYs were completely demolished by Solidus' P90 which, no matter how you slice it, CANNOT be even comparable to Snake's Stinger. TL;DR: There's no way to be certain that the version of RAY Raiden fought scales to REX, and in their only notable appearance they have a feat that suggests otherwise. The problem with "comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden" is quite evident: this is MGS2, MGS4 Raiden wasn't even a thing at that time.
So to sum this argument up: Snake only damaged REX via a weak spot, and the RAY units Raiden took down don't scale to REX.
Metal Gear RAY: New Keys: In light of the aforementioned changes, it's quite clear that some changes have to be made to RAY's keys. My proposal is that we remove the MGS2 key and only leave the MGS4 and MGR ones, with a note down below that specifies how the models that Raiden fought in MGS2 can't be properly tiered and that the unit that was stated to be made as an anti-REX weapon was the one used in MGS4.
NEW PROFILES
Peace Walker:
Abilities: Large size (type 0, it's 25 meters tall in his bipedal mode and around 16 meters when in its quadrupedal mode), Inorganic Physiology, Genius Intelligence (has an expert AI based on The Boss), Fire Manipulation (has a flamethrower), Explosion Manipulation (via missiles, rockets and mines), Electromagnetism Manipulation (it has a EM pulse field), Acrobatics (can jump very high), Sound Manipulation (can let out high pitched screams capable of stunning its opponents), Paralysis Inducement (has a paralysing beam), Self Destruction (Has a self-destruct function).
AP: At Least (whatever Big Boss' ap end up being) physically (can harm Big Boss with its leg-swipes), At Least Low 7-B with Intercontinental Missiles (Peace Walker's missiles have one-Megaton warheads, Missiles usually have more than 1 warhead on them, up to 14, hence the "at least" rating), At Least 7-B with Self-Destruction, likely far higher (Peace Walker has a Self-Destruct function with a massive Hydrogen Bomb that's more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, Real Life Hydrogen Bombs could pack anywhere from 100 Megatons all the way up to several Gigatons, hence the "likely far higher", especially since PW's Hydrogen Bomb is noted to be "massive", PW's H bomb could very well be 6-C).
Speed: Peak Human Travel Speed (Can reach 25 mph in running speed) With High Hypersonic+ Combat speed and Massively Hypersonic Reactions (Scaling from Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Class K (Can support its own weight, which is 500 short tons, and jump at incredibly high speeds).
Striking Strength: At Least (whatever Big Boss' dura ends up being) (Can harm Big Boss)
Durability: At Least (whatever tier Big Boss' weapons end up being) (Completely impervious to anything but Big Boss' best weaponry), Possibly 7-B for its Inner Barrier (Huey was extremely unsure whether a nuke could breach the inner barrier or not, stating that it was designed to be "as strong as a bomb shelter" and to "withstand a nuclear war", since MG is a more scientifically advanced setting, it would be fair to assume that nukes in MG woud be equivalent to our high-tier nukes).
Stamina: Unknown, possibly Infinite (It's completely mechanical and doesn't seem to need any fuel to operate).
Range: Tens of meters with melee attacks, hundreds of meters with rockets and weaponry, at least tens of kilometers with Hydrogen Bomb, planetary with Intercontinental missiles (can hit anywhere on earth).
Standard Equipment: Missiles, S-mines, Flamethrower, EM pulse-field, Paralysis beam, Intercontinental Missiles, Hydrogen Bomb
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius (PW is an Expert AI based on The Boss).
Weaknesses: Can only launch a nuclear missile or attack as self defense, shutting down the Mammal Pod will greatly hinder its thought pattern and combat capabilities
The Sorrow:
Abilities: Intangibility and Inorganic Physiology (Immaterial, type 2; he is a ghost), Invisibility (only visible by those he wishes to be seen by), Self Sustenance (1,2 and 3 due to being a ghost), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 7 and 6 scaling from Psycho Mantis), Death and Life Manipulation (Kills upon making contact with his corpse, brough Naked Snake back to life), BFR (Can take people into the "other side", the world of the dead), Summoning (He summons the ghosts of those killed by the target, but he can also summon his own ghosts), Power Absorption (Can channel the spirits of the dead and utilize their skills), Minor Reality Warping (Can crack and repair his glasses, as well as crying blood from his left eye and materializing flying clocks), True Flight (he flies around), Teleportation (He regularly appears from thin air), Weather Manipulation (It rains whenever he appears), Energy Projection (displayed here), Possession (Scaling from Psycho Mantis), 4th Wall Breaking (Displayed continuously throughout MGS3, such as him remarking "back again?" after the player dies and loads the game), Soul Manipulation (Vanquished Psycho Mantis' soul), Precognition (foretold Big Boss' fate of being killed by his son, scaling from Psycho Mantis).
AP: Likely (whatever Big Boss' ap ends up being) (can harm Big Boss with his Energy Projection), bypasses durability with most of his abilities.
Speed: Likely Supersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reactions (likely scales to Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Unknown.
Striking Strength: Unknown.
Durability: Unknown (Intangibility makes him hard to hit and immortality makes him hard to kill).
Stamina: Likely Infinite (His stamina bar is completely empty, just like his health bar).
Range: Extended melee range with Energy Projection, tens of meters with soul destruction.
Standard Equipment: His own corpse.
Intelligence: Genius (As a member of the Cobra Unit in life, he was an incredibly skilled soldier, capable of predicting the course of any battle by talking to the dead beforehand), in death, he seems to have acquired a sort of Omniscience, showing knowledge on things he would have no true way of knowing, such as perfectly knowing (down to the tens of seconds) the time it would take the C3 to detonate, or knowing the combination to Snake's cell-door before Snake had even been assigned to said cell.
Weaknesses: Consumed by sorrow, doesn't usually interfere with the material world.
I might have made some mistakes because of COURSE i didn't type it all again, i just copy-pasted the old version and corrected it accordingly to our new discoveries and the previous reception.
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