Metal Gear Discussion Thread

[AguilaR202]

Probably not, that's like a 2x gap almost.

Given we know, factually, that one step from REX > Instant death....

Do we actually?

The only one who Rex kills by stomping on them is Gray Fox and even then it was only after getting his arm cut off and getting rammed by its full speed/weight, because in peak condition he caught a stomp from it and Snake conversely can hurt him in hth , and it’s not even like we could argue Gray Fox held back, his exoesqueloton tech is standard issue for Arsenal Tengu during MGS2 and Snake + Raiden can smack them around.

And at least in TTS it looks like it was more about Snake getting caught off guard and having shit positioning than it spelling instant death, much like how Big Boss just gets crushed by Zeke/PW/Cocoon if you miss the prompt.

 

[Dalesean027]

Then and all three administrators, DarkDragonMedeus, Celestial_Pegasus, and Elizhaa have some explaining to do

Welp yeah they would, if they allowed a much bigger gap then that's not good

 

[Chariot190]

Do we actually?

The only one who Rex kills by stomping on them is Gray Fox and even then it was only after getting his arm cut off and getting rammed by its full speed/weight, because in peak condition he caught a stomp from it and Snake conversely can hurt him in hth , and it’s not even like we could argue Gray Fox held back, his exoesqueloton tech is standard issue for Arsenal Tengu during MGS2 and Snake + Raiden can smack them around.

And at least in TTS it looks like it was more about Snake getting caught off guard and having shit positioning than it spelling instant death, much like how Big Boss just gets crushed by Zeke/PW/Cocoon if you miss the prompt.

REX is stated to flatout instant kill Snake in codecs, including with dudes who would actually know what they're talking about like Otacon, additionally it's the only attack in the game on all difficulties, to instantly kill Snake. It doesn't even do damage, it bypasses that flag and you just die. Nothing else does this even on the hardest difficulty. If REX steps on you, you just die. Not even rations...
ressurection negation....

 

[AguilaR202]

REX is stated to flatout instant kill Snake in codecs, including with dudes who would actually know what they're talking about like Otacon, additionally it's the only attack in the game on all difficulties, to instantly kill Snake. It doesn't even do damage, it bypasses that flag and you just die. Nothing else does this even on the hardest difficulty. If REX steps on you, you just die. Not even rations...
ressurection negation....

I mean we don’t actually see it actually stomping Snake and it being established as something that with utmost certainty happened, and it’s not like characters don’t consistently survive things that they say should kill them ie: Liquid saying falling off REX would kill even you, surviving it himself, despite the same fall killing you in gameplay.

And even that is contradicted by Snake being able to take on Gray Fox and hurt him, plus him having enough force ( granted, he needed to employ his full body and momentum) to push back REX’ leg to the ground and shake its frame

And besides, it’s not even full force stomps that REX needed to decimate hordes of Gekkos, it’s just walking through them.

Although it could be just that Snakes LS isn’t half as good as his SS which is what he is actually using in any instance against either Fox, REX or against Gekkos he knocks over.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I think i remembered something from another Twin Snakes cutscene, in Snake and Liquid's fight cutscene their punches shook Metal Gear REX, but i don't know if that was meant to be intentional or just for the sake of being dramatic

Edit: Found it, there's even some dust that comes out of it.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean we don’t actually see it actually stomping Snake and it being established as something that with utmost certainty happened,

Except if it stomps on him in the actual fight, he dies. End of. There is no room for debate here, it is the ONLY thing in the whole game that just kills you.

The intent is blatant here. It isn't just "oh you die in game because gameplay" it's the sole attack in the game where you just die, even on easy, and they say as much, Otacon goes "if it steps on you, youll die", and then ifit steps on you, you die. Coupled with a statement that it'd kill him by like 3+ sources. And then even just basic media literacy in that Fox had to save him (Mind you, REX cripples Fox in one hit later, and then splatters him with its foot).

The alternative is to ignore gameplay feats, but that'd gut like 90% of the verse's feats as it is.

and it’s not like characters don’t consistently survive things that they say should kill them ie: Liquid saying falling off REX would kill even you, surviving it himself, despite the same fall killing you in gameplay.

He also walks off an explosion that knocks Snake out.

And no, this isn't the same as Campbell going oh shit a tank will **** you up, and then if Snake gets hit, he lives and Raven even has a unique animation for it, showing it as a thing that can be done, or Campbell going "liquid cant live that" and then he does and snake confirms it. The game says the thing, and then does everything it can to reinforce it as opposed to immediately contradicting it in the cases where a dude does talk out his ass.

And even that is contradicted by Snake being able to take on Gray Fox and hurt him, plus him having enough force ( granted, he needed to employ his full body and momentum) to push back REX’ leg to the ground and shake its frame

Gray Fox is also physically stronger than Snake, like yeah theyre comparable, but he IS a bit stronger at the very least, Snake just outskills and still has high enough stats to harm him, but then REX is even stronger than Gray Fox.
Just because Gray Fox did a feat high-diff, doesnt mean that WOULDNT **** Snake up, because we know it does, can, and is instant death. Like even just, say Fox is 25% above Snake, and then REX like 50% Gray Fox, that makes REX at least 75% above Snake. Being in the same ballpark as one dude, doesn't mean you're in the same ballpark as a dude that dude's with.

Like, why do you think Gray Fox came in to save Snake in first place? And as mentioned, REX literally kills FOX anyway by crushing him.

And besides, it’s not even full force stomps that REX needed to decimate hordes of Gekkos, it’s just walking through them.

That, again doesn't matter because the feat you're talking about isn't even real. He bounces off Rex, he doesn't actually do anything to it. If anything it's showing how badly he doesn't scale.

Although it could be just that Snakes LS isn’t half as good as his SS which is what he is actually using in any instance against either Fox, REX or against Gekkos he knocks over.

I mean it isn't but Snake still ain't doing shit to REX.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I think i remembered something from another Twin Snakes cutscene, in Snake and Liquid's fight cutscene their punches shook Metal Gear REX, but i don't know if that was meant to be intentional or just for the sake of being dramatic

Edit: Found it, there's even some dust that comes out of it.

Can i get an answer for this?

Anyway, from what i understand, Solid Snake from MG1 to MGS1 will be building level, and MGS2 to 4 will be large building level, right?

 

[Chariot190]

Can i get an answer for this?

I mean, whether it's for dramatic effect or not, it still happened. The problem is, that's only like 9-B. Shaking feats SUCK. I was calcing a shaking feat that's like 1000x REX's mass, and got like, barely 9-A.

 

[Ednaxel2]

and MGS2 to 4 will be large building level, right?

Is that based off a feat or Solidus' exoskeleton multiplier?

 

[Chariot190]

MGS3 but again is soon, the gameplan is to wait for a freecam mod and then put Unknown or Baken to work.
Should make getting the beam dimensions doable.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Is that based off a feat or Solidus' exoskeleton multiplier?

I was talking about Solidus' exoskeleton multiplier but it looks like there's still the MGS3 RPG feat

 

[Chariot190]

For the record, that feat is 100% High 8-C. But it's also important to note like, you kill Venom Snake with that. We'd be looking at an "at most" type deal.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Should the infrared sensors be a reaction or combat speed feat?

 

[Unknownnah]

Anyway, from what i understand, Solid Snake from MG1 to MGS1 will be building level, and MGS2 to 4 will be large building level, right?

MG1-2 Snake probs 8-C. MGS1-4 Snake just scale to TMoF, so depends on how high his stuff gets. (Probs High 8-C)

 

[Ednaxel2]

TMoF

What tis this stand for?

 

[Unknownnah]

What tis this stand for

The Man on Fire

 

[Ednaxel2]

The Man on Fire

Microwaved Volgin

 

[AguilaR202]

Does the flaming whale mantis does ( possessed by venoms psyche ) have a calc?

It looks like a straight tier 8 feat just by size alone although some flame calcs I’ve seen might bump it to city block assuming they’re calced as heating up a volume of air

 

[McFriesGuy075]

MGS1-4 Snake just scale to TMoF, so depends on how high his stuff gets. (Probs High 8-C)

Why the Man on Fire? Does he have anything special in specific? Is it because Venom can charge at him physically? (i remember seeing a gameplay video of someone tackling TMoF, which launched him off a cliff. Cant seem to find that anymore)

 

[Ednaxel2]

Does the flaming whale mantis does ( possessed by venoms psyche ) have a calc?

It looks like a straight tier 8 feat just by size alone although some flame calcs I’ve seen might bump it to city block assuming they’re calced as heating up a volume of air

I did a rough calc a few months ago and someone noticed and helped me

Original calc

Air heat capacity: 1.87 kJ/kg/°C
Air temperature: 20°C
Deep orange fire: 1100°C
Change in temperature: 1100 - 20 = 1,080°C
Mass of whales in kilograms: at least 150,000kg
Now we multiply the change in temperature, heat capacity, and mass to get our result in joules
150000 * 1080 * 1.87 = 302,940,000 Joules or 0.072404397705545 Tons

Correction by the user who helped me

You have to determine the volume of the space, not assume that the form made of fire weighs as much as the real thing. (otherwise it would be "denser fire")
From this source: https://www.rorqual.com/english/res...timated-from-hydrodynamic-gliding-performance
The estimated species-average density of a whale is 1031.6 ± 2.1 kg/m³ or 1.0316 g/cm³.
Using the 150 tons you gave me, this whale volume would be ~145.405 m³ = 145,405,195.8 cm³.
Just multiply this value by 1.6184294.
(What you need to heat up a cubic centimeter of natural gas up to 1,100 °C - 15 °C) and you get 235,328,043.8 joules or 56.24 kg of TNT

So around 0.06199 Tons which is comfortably 9-A

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Why the Man on Fire? Does he have anything special in specific? Is it because Venom can charge at him physically? (i remember seeing a gameplay video of someone tackling TMoF, which launched him off a cliff. Cant seem to find that anymore)

Because the Man on Fire is weaker than Psycho Mantis who got his shit rocked by Solid Snake.

 

[Unknownnah]

Why the Man on Fire? Does he have anything special in specific? Is it because Venom can charge at him physically? (i remember seeing a gameplay video of someone tackling TMoF, which launched him off a cliff. Cant seem to find that anymore)

It's because Baby Mantis scales to TMOF, and MGS1 Mantis would be above that, which would scale to Snake and friends. (BB doesn't get that scaling tho sadly.)

 

[AnAverageUsername]

It's because Baby Mantis scales to TMOF, and MGS1 Mantis would be above that, which would scale to Snake and friends. (BB doesn't get that scaling tho sadly.)

I mean BB did bench press Cocoon, is that still good?

 

[Ednaxel2]

And why would MoF be High 8-C? Is it based off Volgin being able to break through Shagohod's armour which is High 8-C for tanking RPGs? Or for overpowering Venom who can tank a few RPGs before dying?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

And why would MoF be High 8-C? Is it based off Volgin being able to break through Shagohod's armour which is High 8-C for tanking RPGs? Or for overpowering Venom who can tank a few RPGs before dying?

The durability on his profile mentions he survived being crushed by Sahelanthropus, but there's no scan for that in there

 

[AguilaR202]

I did a rough calc a few months ago and someone noticed and helped me

Original calc

Correction by the user who helped me

So around 0.06199 Tons which is comfortably 9-A

Lol no, the flaming whale is large enough to fit a Black hawk helicopter in its mouth, so the volume is 1000x off, the rest is ok

Edit: making a very rough calc of it

Blackhawk rotor diameter = 16.36 m
Whale mouth width = 16.36
Whale body lenght lowball to 3x its mouth size
that give or take, I’m 100 sure it’s larger but someone could help pixel scaling

Model as cylinder since the actual fire extends farther than just the whale avatar

Pi*8.18^2*49.08

Volume of flames: 10317.1806298 m3 or 10317180629.8 cc

Energy: 3.94538456206979 Tons of TNT

Being honest, even this is a massive lowball considering how large the mass of flames actually looks so much so, that I think a proper calc with that method might end up outlierish if the intention is ultimately to scale it to Snake / MoF.

 

[Unknownnah]

I mean BB did bench press Cocoon, is that still good?

Yeah. Snake just upscales.

And why would MoF be High 8-C? Is it based off Volgin being able to break through Shagohod's armour which is High 8-C for tanking RPGs? Or for overpowering Venom who can tank a few RPGs before dying?

Completely obliterating a tank in the prologue.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Why does Solid Snake no longer have his badass MGS1 render

 

[Lacku]

Why does Solid Snake no longer have his badass MGS1 render

Tbf they are renders from the games themselves but icl I kinda miss the old one too

 

[AguilaR202]

Has anyone calced Rays water cutter?
I’m pretty sure it’s in the order of high 8-C to 8-A assuming it’s shooting water at only 1000m/s ( fastest real life water jet) through its mouth cannon.

Assuming it forces water through 1m2 hole at those speeds gives around 1,000,000 litres per second or a KE of 119.50 Tons of TNT for the water.

At 30:03 mark

Though it depends on how thick the water stream is

MGS4 shows a much narrow water jet compared to MGS2, but metal Gear survive ( sadly) as Rays most recent model shows it shooting a much wider water stream to where the above calc is close to accurate

 

[Chariot190]

That isn't how you'd calc that, least of all given, well, Ray obviously doesnt have 1000000 litres of water in its body nor does it shoot that much at any point ever. We'd just calc what we see.

Like, 1000000 litres, is 1000m3, that's actively bigger than Ray itself is.

 

[AguilaR202]

That isn't how you'd calc that, least of all given, well, Ray obviously doesnt have 1000000 litres of water in its body nor does it shoot that much at any point ever. We'd just calc what we see.

Like, 1000000 litres, is 1000m3, that's actively bigger than Ray itself is.

Even in its introduction it was shooting far more than its own weight in water sustaining the stream for 10 seconds, that’s hardly an issue.

 

[Chariot190]

Even in its introduction it was shooting far more than its own weight in water sustaining the stream for 10 seconds, that’s hardly an issue.

It is, mostly because that isn't inherently true. This only works if you assume it's firing at a certain speed and thus must be shooting a certain volume per second at the same time. That isn't true, we see how much it shoots, it isnt shooting like a km long stream in the first half second, the speed is evidently lower, that, or the perception of the scene is skewed, either way.

Secondly, that's just ignoring common sense to get a big number.

Also, it's a continuous pressure, you wouldn't use KE to calc it because not all that water is being ejected at the same time by a single motion. You'd probably just calc the pressure itself and the area over which it's applied to, like an actual water cutter.

 

[AguilaR202]

It is, mostly because that isn't inherently true. This only works if you assume it's firing at a certain speed and thus must be shooting a certain volume per second at the same time. That isn't true, we see how much it shoots, it isnt shooting like a km long stream in the first half second, the speed is evidently lower, that, or the perception of the scene is skewed, either way.

Secondly, that's just ignoring common sense to get a big number.

Also, it's a continuous pressure, you wouldn't use KE to calc it because not all that water is being ejected at the same time by a single motion. You'd probably just calc the pressure itself and the area over which it's applied to, like an actual water cutter.

the speed of the water is supported by real life because any slower and its not cutting steel.

Even the gameplay shows it as an instantaneous attack compared to bullets and missiles, so it’s not getting lower than machs speeds.

the whole scene happens in real time too, so I don’t see how perspective is skewed

We don’t need to see water extending km away because it’s countinously flowing, the one time we see a far shot it flies out of the arena it’s fighting in.

Infinite ammo and hammer spaces are lampshaded multiple times in the series, so really appealing to common sense about the one thing the series itself doesn’t care about is silly.

It’s literally 1 second of KE, not different from wattage which is j/s, the actual total energy is multiplied by how long he can sustain.

 

[Dalesean027]

Chariot would be right here... there's been a lot of talk about stuff here just for the sake of getting a bigger number

 

[Chariot190]

the speed of the water is supported by real life because any slower and its not cutting steel.

That isn't true, at all. It isn't cutting steel, if it's coming from a puny 1mm nozzle. The bigger it is, while still retaining relative velocity, if it downscales, is gonna be packing exponentially more force.

Even 1mps can cut steel, there just needs to be enough water behind it at atht velocity to do so. It isn't a speed thing, it's a mass x velocity x area thing, hence why they're categorized by stuff pressure per area.

So, quite frankly, no, the fact 1 second at even 70mps, would be enough to completely blow out steel plating from a 1m^2 nozzle as that's also over 40 tons per second. 40 tons at a "relatively" small area. That's like, well you dont need to be that strong to cut through steel dude. To shear through a tanker's hull, you really only need to be 9-B.

Even the gameplay shows it as an instantaneous attack compared to bullets and missiles, so it’s not getting lower than machs speeds.

Unless we calc it as shown without relying on gameplay?
Like, you know by this logic, Raiden is subsonic at max because he isnt actually moving as fast a bullet in gameplay, or hell, stuff like the solar gun in 4, being slower than a bullet. Or hey. REX's beam being hitscan.

Regardless, in the actual tanker scene, we see it physically move, it's fast, but it isn't like 1000mps.

the whole scene happens in real time too, so I don’t see how perspective is skewed

Then there you go, if it's in real time, it isnt firing at said speeds, I can LITERALLY calc it as seen, it'd be subsonic.

In fact, I just checked, the actual cutscene, you can frame by frame it, it's about 100-200mps based on how big Ray is. Assuming the game 30fps anyway.

We don’t need to see water extending km away because it’s countinously flowing,

Yes we do? If it fires at 1km a second speeds, it should PROBABLY cover 1km in a second and not like 1/10th that.

the one time we see a far shot it flies out of the arena it’s fighting in.

Yes we do? If it's projecting a 1kms jet of water, but the water jet only covers like, 80m in a second... Well what do you think?

Infinite ammo and hammer spaces are lampshaded multiple times in the series, so really appealing to common sense about the one thing the series itself doesn’t care about is silly.

Yeah with very specific items. Now show me where that's the case with RAY, or literally EVERYTHING else, the hundreds of other weapons, items, and mecha that don't have that.

Are you for real right now? Ray obviously doesn't have pocket storage, in fact I'm like 80% sure in the boss fight the Rays jump into the water to refuel.

It’s literally 1 second of KE, not different from wattage which is j/s, the actual total energy is multiplied by how long he can sustain.

I pray I don't have to explain the issues with this....

Either way, you wouldn't calc it the way you're doing it, it's hyper inflated, and like, wouldn't even matter. REX already upscales 8-A. And RAY scales to REX. even with inflation and wank it isn't upgrading them. The only way they'd get an upgrade, is if Raiden gets an upgrade, which, he might, but that's beside the point.

 

[Ednaxel2]

The only way they'd get an upgrade, is if Raiden gets an upgrade, which, he might, but that's beside the point.

 

[Chariot190]

Outer Haven should be larger, which obviously means bigger number. We have official sizes for it, we also have blueprints (that shit aint that hollow).

Itll get higher.

 

[Unknownnah]

All this talk about upgrades but no talk about making a profile for the goat Kaz (invented Doritos btw)

 

[AguilaR202]

That isn't true, at all. It isn't cutting steel, if it's coming from a puny 1mm nozzle. The bigger it is, while still retaining relative velocity, if it downscales, is gonna be packing exponentially more force.

Even 1mps can cut steel, there just needs to be enough water behind it at atht velocity to do so. It isn't a speed thing, it's a mass x velocity x area thing, hence why they're categorized by stuff pressure per area.

So, quite frankly, no, the fact 1 second at even 70mps, would be enough to completely blow out steel plating from a 1m^2 nozzle as that's also over 40 tons per second. 40 tons at a "relatively" small area. That's like, well you dont need to be that strong to cut through steel dude. To shear through a tanker's hull, you really only need to be 9-B.

Unless we calc it as shown without relying on gameplay?
Like, you know by this logic, Raiden is subsonic at max because he isnt actually moving as fast a bullet in gameplay, or hell, stuff like the solar gun in 4, being slower than a bullet. Or hey. REX's beam being hitscan.

Regardless, in the actual tanker scene, we see it physically move, it's fast, but it isn't like 1000mps.

Then there you go, if it's in real time, it isnt firing at said speeds, I can LITERALLY calc it as seen, it'd be subsonic.

In fact, I just checked, the actual cutscene, you can frame by frame it, it's about 100-200mps based on how big Ray is. Assuming the game 30fps anyway.

Yes we do? If it fires at 1km a second speeds, it should PROBABLY cover 1km in a second and not like 1/10th that.

Yes we do? If it's projecting a 1kms jet of water, but the water jet only covers like, 80m in a second... Well what do you think?

Yeah with very specific items. Now show me where that's the case with RAY, or literally EVERYTHING else, the hundreds of other weapons, items, and mecha that don't have that.

Are you for real right now? Ray obviously doesn't have pocket storage, in fact I'm like 80% sure in the boss fight the Rays jump into the water to refuel.

I pray I don't have to explain the issues with this....

Either way, you wouldn't calc it the way you're doing it, it's hyper inflated, and like, wouldn't even matter. REX already upscales 8-A. And RAY scales to REX. even with inflation and wank it isn't upgrading them. The only way they'd get an upgrade, is if Raiden gets an upgrade, which, he might, but that's beside the point.

What are you even talking about, water cutters cut through pressure of water crashing against the surface of a material which accelerates erosion or outright just induces shear failure.

If the nozzle is larger in diameter so would be the surface of the material being hit by the water which conversely increases the total amount of force needed to induce failure on it, but the pressure aka N/m2 or Pascals would remain a constant in this equation because otherwise the materials won’t give in.

The speed has to be a constant as well because it’s water crashing at those speeds that create pressure in the first place.

Except that it just wouldn’t, much less at the speed you think it would, even the water jets with abrasive material and focused on tiny ass nozzles( so you know the water is focused on a real small point) can only cut a 6 mm plate at a rate of 6 inches per minute, which is pretty damn slow compared to what we see happen.

Please drop the gotcha arguments, the speed you calculate simply doesn’t give water enough pressure to do what its shown it does and is canonically meant to do much less when you consider it’s meant to actually damage military grade armor plating outfitted to REX knockoffs ,the kind that requires a hypersonic copper jets/ or supersonic dense penetrators to reliably penetrate.

On the other hand even 20 m/s for the water still would have RAY shooting double full volume in water or even that, so again wether it could realistically hold that much water was never really an issue.

We don’t need to see the water extending a km away because it’s a constant flow of water, you’re already seeing all of the mass there is of it because it is constantly moving, you’re just affirming that because we don’t see your preferred POV that it can’t be that much.

??? Except when charcters are outright blocking bullets?

Why would it be unreliable at all to say RAYs water gun is meant to be pretty fast when clearly portrayed as such more times than it wasn’t.

Solar gun, who the heck even thought it should be anything but subsonic, it just fires magic blobs of sunlight that behave nothing like light at all.

No shit REX’ actual laser is hitscan, its an actual unironical laser weapon.

It’s not really inflated, it’s just what happens when technology that is tiny is scaled up in size, and you’d be hard pressed to scale it to anything effectively because it’s only ever used against REX for a fraction of a second and depletes around half its health bar. Meaning it’s an anti feat for its durability at best.