Merging universes isn't always 2-C

[Eficiente]

What do Dark Kah, Ultron-Sigma and MCU Dormammu have in common with their universe-merging feats?

• They only affect the universes themselves and not the space between them, doing things like teleporting stuff/using portals to merge stuff from both universes.
• They explicitly only affect the present, not all of time.
• Most people is able to survive the event just fine.

This feats are 3-A at best when everything is altered and like 3-B when a lot of stuff in the universes is pretty much intact. The only way in which merging 2 or more universes could be 2-C is if they are moved across the space between them and collide.

Edit: I'm now ok with merging timespace continuums being 2-C, but still, when only the matter of the universes is merged the feats should be 3-A.

I propose (aside from downgrading all characters with uncontroversial feats like this) to create a page stating our standards for feats like this. Something like "Universe-Merging Feats Standards". This would help users understand the matter and allow others to simply link the page as opposed to saying it and maybe having to argue about it.

 

[Moritzva]

I don't know much about the given examples but this seems reasonable.

 

[DarkGrath]

Like Moritzva above, I don't know enough about the provided examples to comment on them. But overall, I agree with this. Also, isn't Universe Merging already generally accepted as just an above baseline 3-A feat if there isn't any indication of both time and space being manipulated in the process?

 

[Eficiente]

Well you should watch the Doctor Strange movie, that's like the 3┬░ or 4┬░ best one in the MCU.

 

[DarkGrath]

I have watched it, and I agree it's one of the best MCU movies. I just don't know/remember enough about the Universe Merging thing. From what I do remember (which, again, isn't necessarily reliable) I don't remember any mention of the merging causing time manipulation, so it should be 3-A.

 

[Eficiente]

Also, isn't Universe Merging already generally accepted as just an above baseline 3-A feat if there isn't any indication of both time and space being manipulated in the process?

We will see about that soon here, it's certainly more reasonable than 2-C but when it's just teleporting stuff time is not being manipulated at all, space maybe if it makes a universe bigger, but I'm iffy about it.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, I remember it being a big point in DMC threads. The character Argosax got their 3-A rating due to having merged together the physical space of two universes, and later got a Low 2-C upgrade after evidence was found suggesting that both time and space were manipulated in the process. I'm sure the circumstances aren't perfectly comparable, but I don't see how merging two universes together has ever been a 2-B feat. Otherwise, DMC needs more upgrades

 

[Eficiente]

Warping space and time in a universe isn't necessarily Low 2-C, same with doing that x2. If we don't know that the feat is the same as destroying a timeline then the feat is nothing. As for the 3-A stuff idk the context, DMC experts can see what's up with that.

 

[Genericstickman]

Wasn't Ultron-Sigma's feat merging both realities of the universes? I was planning on rewatching MVCI's cutscenes anyhow to see if US had any missing abilities

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think that matters here, also "realities of the universes" is redundant.

 

[Antvasima]

I talked with DarkLK about this once, and he replied that to truly merge universes you would have to affect the entire timespace continuums, not just teleport all of the matter from one to the other.

 

[Eficiente]

That's good, but if "truly merge universes" aims to mean being 2-C the space between them should be affected as well. If it's not it would be like saying that someone who can make 2 solar systems blow themselves up would be 4-A even tho the energy used isn't the same as an explosion that destroys a solar system, travels into other solar system, and destroys that one too.

For similar reasons I also don't think that feats about timelines suddenly getting destroyed is a 2-C feat.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

>2-B

>Linked examples are 2-C

Is that what you mean to say cuz 2-B AFAIK deals with 1k or more universes?

 

[Eficiente]

My bad I confused both, everything still applies.

 

[Eficiente]

Fixed.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Two keys off on the keyboard or phone I imagine lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am afraid that I disagree with his, and think that it would mess up our current scaling systems too much. Also, you would logically have to move the universes through higher-dimensional space in order to merge them.

 

[Eficiente]

One wouldn't if it is just teleporting a universe.

In any case, characters who don't even do that to the whole space-time of the universes and just the matter in them should still be downgraded, and a page with standards about this would still be a good idea in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that time and space are knit together if you are going to affect the entire structure, and not simply teleport all of the matter elsewhere.

 

[Eficiente]

Mmm, ok I think that's fine, I'm not opposing 2-C via merging timespace continuums anymore, but, and not to sound repetitive, we should still do the rest (the page for standards and the downgrades). Most of the characters with feats like this seem to only merge the matter of their universes anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems unlikely to me, as the other universes would end up empty if that happened, but feel free to ask for more staff input.

 

[Eficiente]

It is done, and having one universe empty seems like a logical conclusion to think when feats like this happen, not that most verses care to explore the cosmology anyway. Also, if there wasn't an empty space there could be 2 empty spaces where both universes used to be, with the merged universe in the middle. Just having one empty space takes less speculation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just to get this out of the way, if the universes are literally "Alternate Realities", then they would be alternate timelines by definition. And you kind of need to be able to effect the Space-Time barriers that separate two or more universes in order to merge them together.

Just to point out that the reason DMC wasn't accepted as 2-C is because afterlives and Spirit Worlds/Demon Worlds are not assumed to be actual universes. They're more like places bigger than the human world and spiritual rather than physical, but still a 3-dimensional area contained within the Space-Time continuum. But the DC Universe and the MK Universe are both definitely alternate realities. Universe may have multiple definitions, but "All Reality" alright includes all time and space. And "Alternate Universe", "Alternate Reality" both inherently mean alternate timeline. And even the world "Multiverse" generally means 2 or more universes/timelines. While Quilted Multiverses are a thing, it needs to be pointed out that Quilted multiverses are never really called multiverses and often called universes or worlds due to them technically not being multiverses.

And on topic, the Megaman Battle Network cast are also 2-C via merging two alternate realities as the Cyberworld is literally described as an alternate reality.

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with DarkDragonMedeus

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

From what I remember in doctor strange. Dormammu merging universes was meant to be not just the universe, but the actual timeline itself. So he should be 2-C

Also, Doctor Strange isn't even that good

 

[Hellbeast1]

Boi Doctor Strange is quality

But yeah Ancient One mentioned Dormmamu would wipe out her timeline if he came through

 

[Eficiente]

Both of you, that is false. I watched the whole movie just to find something to justify Dorm's stats, which had no evidence at the time, and there was nothing. The movie alone only makes him 5-B. Also context, which matters more; That would have saved the wife of the bad guy and made all of the people he killed not sacrifices anymore, his plan was to stop time by making the world be in a place with no time, as in at the moment that happens, from that point on there is no time.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Again though Endgame claims he would doom the entire timeline

Also I think Dormammu's stuff coems from the tie ins (Kep has scans I think)

 

[Eficiente]

Can you, like, not claim stuff you maybe think is correct for others to put a lot of effort to prove wrong and start showing evidence?

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm sorry can you mind your passive aggressive tone please?


Here is Ancient One mentioning the timeline is doomed without the Time Stone

I also didn't claim anything about the tie ins (In fact I only ever said I think the universe merging is from there and informed you of someone who might know better)

 

[Eficiente]

It is visibly shown that the timeline being doomed happens, as I said before, from one point forward in time. Also that could be Thanos destroying the universe or any other threat sorcerers face, which are stated to be threats to reality. Dorm was never mentioned as you said.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Except she specifically mentions this happens without the Time Stone

Which is pretty heavily referencing the ending of Doctor Strange considering the Tine Stone is the only thing they have to stop Dormammu

 

[Eficiente]

This being "pretty heavily referencing the ending of Doctor Strange" is one interpretation. Again, sorcerers protect reality and we know that

• The Time Stone is most powerful thing Strange has.
• He has been using it after his movie.
• The Ancient One was using it before it for who knows how much time.
• Strange talked a lot about his responsibility to protect the stone in Infinity War.

Also the whole timeline isn't getting affected by Dorm anyway (due to the first point I made in the comment above), so this doesn't really matter.

 

[DarkLK]

Although such feats are often not very suitable for combat, to be honest, I don't have any idea how you will merge universes without affecting their timelines. In the new world, there will by definition be united causality. Otherwise, you do not merge universes at all, that is, different continua still remain in place (yes, in such cases it will not be 2-C, but I wouldn't call such cases the merging of universes).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It can be combat applicable under certain circumstances, such as a character's own essence and/or existence is literally what's merging two or more universes together. But let's say someone is using a spell or holds a magic staff that does it, it may not scale to physical stats unless there's more context behind it.

 

[Andytrenom]

Pretty sure we are already supposed to treat it this way

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DarkLK. I do not think that we should change our standards for this.

 

[Sera_EX]

Merging universes is always assumed to be 2-C unless it is stated that specifically only matter and/or energy was merged (which is a very rare case). Now, I will say that Dark Kahn and Ultron-Sigma's ratings should be hax-based and they need a tier for their physical stats.

 

[Schnee_One]

Disagreed FRA

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hmm, I suppose that's fine. Dark Kahn does merge universes just by existing, but considering that he was defeated by Superman and Raiden; his physical stats could be lower. Should be noted that Injustice was recently considered to be part of the Mortal Kombat multiverse according to Everlasting. With MK Vs DC being two of many universes. Injustice Superman and True self Raiden are Low 6-B and Dark Kahn should be comparable to their combined might. So Low 6-B I'd say sounds good for their physical stats. But this is off topic.

Anyway, I do agree with DarkLK and Sera here.