Massive Fate Servant upgrade [Réalta Nua]

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Reality and feats should always be placed above character statements.

in a verse where literally every dc feat above a certain point gets neutered because of the counter force. alright.

 

[KingNanaya]

again, I think it would be best to get calc group members here so they can give their input

 

[Deagonx]

in a verse where literally every dc feat above a certain point gets neutered because of the counter force. alright.

Where's the scan saying this is why it didn't destroy a continent?

 

[Deagonx]

again, I think it would be best to get calc group members here so they can give their input

The math isn't the problem, it's whether anything scales to the math

 

[KingNanaya]

The math isn't the problem, it's whether anything scales to the math

I didn't claim that the math was the issue, I just feel as if someone who is familiar with the math would be able to give a decent opinion on everything presented

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Where's the scan saying this is why it didn't destroy a continent?

Da Vinci: To begin with, even if you release the full power of a Top Servant's Noble Phantasm, it still can't completely destroy the planet.

Da Vinci: Anti-Planetary (or Anti-Star in some translations) Noble Phantasm...even if such a thing existed...According to calculations it's still not possible to destroy this planet.

anything that cause destruction over a certain amount is negated by the counter force.
The servants i sent in the OP were only able to destroy the planet or continents because the counterforce and the reverse side dont exist in singularities

 

[Deagonx]

Continental wouldn't destroy the planet regardless, and that's not about this meteor.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Singularities have no counter force.

Is this true? Cause if so I don’t understand why you are saying the counter force protected the planet if there is no counter force present when this feat happened.

 

[Jaften]

I don't think the North Pole impact feat takes place in a singularity.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Is this true? Cause if so I don’t understand why you are saying the counter force protected the planet if there is no counter force present when this feat happened.

did you not read the op. f/sf does not take place in a singularity

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Continental wouldn't destroy the planet regardless, and that's not about this meteor.

the point is that the planet reduces the dc of ALL threats above a certain level. nasuverse is one of the WORST verses to invoke the DC fallacy on.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't consider that particularly relevant in the absence of any evidence counterforce was activated, and given that we are starting from an assumption that isn't within the text itself, instead of simply calcing the actual event that occurred.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I don't consider that particularly relevant in the absence of any evidence counterforce was activated, and given that we are starting from an assumption that isn't within the text itself, instead of simply calcing the actual event that occurred.

It isn't a assumption

Due to a spell to ignore air resistance, the projectiles he continuously fired with the high speed of a railgun shot would never burn or slow down. It was clear that if they reached the surface, they would cause major harm to the land and all the life on it.

At that moment, the energy levels in Enkidu's body skyrocketed. Thia couldn't tell where all this power was coming from but all of the Heroic Spirit's parameters got a temporary boost.

From enkidu's servant status

Enuma Elish: O Humans, Let Us Restrain The Gods Above
Rank: A++
Type: Anti-Purge Noble Phantasm
Range: 0~999
Maximum Targets: 1000 People
Ability of Enkidu's to transform its own body into a Divine Construct.
The Counter Forces known as Alaya and Gaia's powers flow into a keystone made of light. Then giant amounts of energy are transformed into a form that the world can recognize and pierces the opponent in one hit. In response to things that threaten the destruction of the planet or humanity, the power is increased.

Putting two and two together i can say that,yes it was about to damage humanity pretty hard.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It isn't a assumption



From enkidu's servant status

Putting two and two together i can say that,yes it was about to damage humanity pretty hard.

not just humanity.

I am without the protection of Human Order.
Earth!

I support the current prime species’ right to hate, pity, forgive, scream, and pray to its Counter Force
People!

In this crevice, I shall ingest all good and all evil to demonstrate who I am.

Sing! Dance!

My eyes sing praise to all human creation and for that very reason I take the challenge to overcome the human intellect.
Eternal doom comes.
Through this destruction, I’ll be celebrating the prosperity of human intellect until the time the planet withers completely.

Do your best to survive!

The power to turn their Saint Graph into one all-piercing lynchpin weapon by borrowing
power from the planet and Human Order.

Its magical energy levels spiked...? I didn’t see it draining the energy from the planet. Is that
creature from... somewhere else...?

implying that enkidu took some energy from the planet as well as alaya

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If you're altering a common feat, you do need evaluation.

I didn't want to come in here, so I'll give brief thoughts. If a feat has direct counter-evidence to it, such as, for example, a meteor hitting the moon and not destroying it and then later having some vague statement that can be considered moon level, we should adhere to the counter-evidence above all.

I also think that a lot of the evidence being used to support using the feat is not particularly strong. This line in particular was highlighted just above:

In response to things that threaten the destruction of the planet or humanity, the power is increased.

But it wouldn't take anywhere near a Moon-level feat to threaten humanity. All of humanity (and life on Earth) could feasibly be wiped out by something on the lower bounds of Tier 6.

Regarding statements in the OP: I'm not sure I'd consider the quote in the OP to be a surface wipe as we calculate it (an explosion)- that part is questionable but at least defendable. I also don't understand where you're pulling numbers like 9.32 Teratons from, you don't make that clear. There's a lot of other strange interpretations, too: "turning a planet upside down" probably is flowery language, and destroying a meteor capable of destroying Earth is not the same as destroying the Earth. In fact it's definitely much much lower. By a lot. A tremendous amount. Whether this last bit is important is debateable, some of the other statements are fine and if the scaling does actually work out the way you're saying it does (I don't know if it does, you've provided no evidence that it does, and I don't understand why they wouldn't just scale to those guys already if it did) then it probably doesn't matter if destroying that meteor is probably only like High 6-C.

I checked in this because you asked me to, and you're openly claiming the votes are 2-0 despite Deagon ostensibly disagreeing with, at least, the current proposals. I find that to be greatly underhanded and dishonest.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

If you're altering a common feat, you do need evaluation.

I didn't want to come in here, so I'll give brief thoughts. If a feat has direct counter-evidence to it, such as, for example, a meteor hitting the moon and not destroying it and then later having some vague statement that can be considered moon level, we should adhere to the counter-evidence above all.

The problem is using DC, at least for the nasuverse, is not a particularly strong argument. The counterforce dampens any major action taken against it, to the point where da vinci states it is completely impossible for any attack to completely destroy the planet, because of the counterforce. The only reasonn why planetary destruction is possible in the later feats i give is because there is no tier 1 counterforce in singularities, or any tier 1 structure at all, since its separate from human history. The Earths in these singularities are just normal tier 5 planets, thus destroying them because possible.

I also think that a lot of the evidence being used to support using the feat is not particularly strong. This line in particular was highlighted just above:


But it wouldn't take anywhere near a Moon-level feat to threaten humanity. All of humanity (and life on Earth) could feasibly be wiped out by something on the lower bounds of Tier 6.

Enkidu gains buffs from both counterforces, as i highlighted above. When gugalanna enters, Thia remarks that he didnt notice it draining energy from the planet, implying that enkidu did so.

Through this destruction, I’ll be celebrating the prosperity of human intellect until the time the planet withers completely.

Do your best to survive!

The power to turn their Saint Graph into one all-piercing lynchpin weapon by borrowing
power from the planet and Human Order.

Its magical energy levels spiked...? I didn’t see it draining the energy from the planet.

Regarding statements in the OP: I'm not sure I'd consider the quote in the OP to be a surface wipe as we calculate it (an explosion)- that part is questionable but at least defendable. I also don't understand where you're pulling numbers like 9.32 Teratons from, you don't make that clear.

Earthquake Calculations

An earthquake (also known as a quake, tremor or temblor) is the perceptible shaking of the surface of the Earth. Earthquakes can be violent enough to toss people around and destroy whole cities. Such earthquakes being caused by characters are a method useable to determine Attack Potency. For the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

destroying a meteor capable of destroying Earth is not the same as destroying the Earth. In fact it's definitely much much lower. By a lot. A tremendous amount. Whether this last bit is important is debateable, some of the other statements are fine and if the scaling does actually work out the way you're saying it does (I don't know if it does, you've provided no evidence that it does, and I don't understand why they wouldn't just scale to those guys already if it did) then it probably doesn't matter if destroying that meteor is probably only like High 6-C.

Again, this is the AOE fallacy. Moriarty explicitly grabs a random meteor, empowers it with his NP,designates it as a bullet, and shoots it towards the earth.

It has the size of a meteor, but it doesnt have the AP or durability of one, its been explicitly empowered by a noble phantasm.

I checked in this because you asked me to, and you're openly claiming the votes are 2-0 despite Deagon ostensibly disagreeing with, at least, the current proposals. I find that to be greatly underhanded and dishonest.

I would have to asbtain from adding his vote to the counter before he explicity says his stance,regardless of his opinion anyway.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

destroying a meteor capable of destroying Earth is not the same as destroying the Earth. In fact it's definitely much much lower. By a lot. A tremendous amount. Whether this last bit is important is debateable, some of the other statements are fine and if the scaling does actually work out the way you're saying it does (I don't know if it does, you've provided no evidence that it does, and I don't understand why they wouldn't just scale to those guys already if it did) then it probably doesn't matter if destroying that meteor is probably only like High 6-C.

Again, if attack A can destroy a planet, and character intercepts that attack, the character is planet level. full stop. it wouldn't make sense if an attack billions of times weaker would be able to stop planet level ap, and if thats the case, we would need to rethink a LOT of currently accepted feats.

also pretty much all the characters do scale to eachother, its just that a lot of nasu threads never get concluded or finish, for reasons, so the feats in question have never been applied.

 

[Eseseso]

"Hear me, Lord of All Creation." "I announce." "In my name representing order (wank), I announce." "Everything will be corrected. (not. SANE)" "Order has now fallen. (five timeless wanks)"

I admire and respect the work ethic.

OP seems good. Just curious, will a bunch of Fate people now be 5-B or Low 5-B+?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I admire and respect the work ethic.

OP seems good. Just curious, will a bunch of Fate people now be 5-B or Low 5-B+?

a+ rank nps and above would be baseline 5-B, the rest would be low 5-B

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

a+ rank nps and above would be baseline 5-B, the rest would be low 5-B

just use 1/4th of Arc's moondrop for Servants at that point

 

[Eseseso]

a+ rank nps and above would be baseline 5-B, the rest would be low 5-B

I see.

Another 5-B smurf that can claim a spot in the Top 10 5-B list.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Again, if attack A can destroy a planet, and character intercepts that attack, the character is planet level. full stop. it wouldn't make sense if an attack billions of times weaker would be able to stop planet level ap, and if thats the case, we would need to rethink a LOT of currently accepted feats.

also pretty much all the characters do scale to eachother, its just that a lot of nasu threads never get concluded or finish, for reasons, so the feats in question have never been applied.

This is literally factually incorrect. I don't know how to explain this to you short of teaching you basic physics.

Let's say a group launches an attack at relativistic speeds. It's essentially a bullet that travels interstellar distances. Takes a long time to reach its target. Let's say this bullet has the approximate size of a human being (that's 62,000 cubic centimeters, roughly) and is made of steel (density of 8050 kg/m^3). This bullet would weigh about 500 kg and would have power about equal to the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. It would certainly be plausible to destroy all life on Earth with that.

And yet, it would require only 1.290e7 Joules to destroy it. That's Wall level.

 

[Mageman460]

A couple more things to add. You keep claiming singularities do not have the Counter Force. This is actually wrong, please provide evidence as to why ALL singularities do not have a Counter Force. Especially considering that in Guda Guda 3, TWO Counter Guardians are explicitly summoned. In the Fate/Zero event, Kiritsugu is a counter guardian.

Also stop using the meteor, it's not like they matched the KE of the meteor when the destroyed it or anything. Emiya Alter used a dura neg attack that spawned a massive amount of swords inside of it fragmenting it. Then Salter vaporized the remaining pieces.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This is literally factually incorrect. I don't know how to explain this to you short of teaching you basic physics.

Let's say a group launches an attack at relativistic speeds. It's essentially a bullet that travels interstellar distances. Takes a long time to reach its target. Let's say this bullet has the approximate size of a human being (that's 62,000 cubic centimeters, roughly) and is made of steel (density of 8050 kg/m^3). This bullet would weigh about 500 kg and would have power about equal to the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. It would certainly be plausible to destroy all life on Earth with that.

And yet, it would require only 1.290e7 Joules to destroy it. That's Wall level.

Reinforcement [Magecraft]
An elementary spell that was extremely difficult to master.
Even though elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mana was the basis of all magecraft, due to the high degree of freedom and lack of concrete protocols, there were very few users who could reinforce everything.
Shirou of course was only a half-baked user who could only reinforce weapon-related objects.
Since Reinforcement enhanced the target's meaning of existence, knives would become sharper, food would become more nutritious, and maids would become more moe.
It was impossible to reinforce something that was exceedingly vague.
By the way, it was difficult to infuse another living being with one's mana, thus Reinforcement of another human was a spell of highest difficulty.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"It was amplified" is not the same thing as "it is now 5-B", you now need to provide evidence of that amplification working to that extent. Simply destroying the world wouldn't be sufficient, since we're now talking about a totally different feat.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I am gonna disagree with tier 5 scaling,
I feel like around country level is much more consistent with the verse as of fate strange fake.

 

[Deagonx]

I would have to asbtain from adding his vote to the counter before he explicity says his stance,regardless of his opinion anyway.

I very clearly expressed disagreement.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

A couple more things to add. You keep claiming singularities do not have the Counter Force. This is actually wrong, please provide evidence as to why ALL singularities do not have a Counter Force. Especially considering that in Guda Guda 3, TWO Counter Guardians are explicitly summoned. In the Fate/Zero event, Kiritsugu is a counter guardian.

Also stop using the meteor, it's not like they matched the KE of the meteor when the destroyed it or anything. Emiya Alter used a dura neg attack that spawned a massive amount of swords inside of it fragmenting it. Then Salter vaporized the remaining pieces.

Moriarty	Figured it out already, eh? I see your reputation as a genius artist is well deserved.
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	Hang on just a moment! I need to look something up!
Sound Effect	ad59
Da Vinci	Quick! All staff, gather round! We need to begin an emergency investigation!
Sound Effect	ad3
Sound Effect	ad192
Sound Effect	ad3
Sound Effect	ad184
Sound Effect	ad172
	[Background] [Figure]
Jeanne Alter	So what is this plan already?
	[Background] [Figure]
Holmes	...It's not possible to destroy the world.
	[Background] [Figure]
Holmes	Goetia's objective may have been different, but his plan still took 3,000 years to come to fruition.
	[Background] [Figure]
Holmes	However, it IS possible to remove the world from history. In other words...
Choices	If the world is removed from history... Then it can be destroyed?
	[Background] [Figure]
	[Background] [Figure]
Both	Well done!
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	Yes! That's exactly it! This is terrible! That world is already devoid of meaning!
	[Background] [Figure]
Mash	Wh-what do you mean, Da Vinci!?
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	I mean that world is already cut off from history!
Da Vinci	No matter what happens there in Shinjuku, it won't have any effect on humanity whatsoever!
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	I mean, of course it can make things a bit unstable, but no more than the tiniest of tremors.
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	No matter how unstable humanity gets, at this level, there will never be any adverse effects.
	[Background] [Figure]
Da Vinci	In the worst case, that Shinjuku could be destroyed without issue... It wouldn't even affect Chaldea!
Choices	So this world is going to be destroyed? Da Vinci ...Unless we can find a way to avert it. What about the Servants...? Da Vinci Naturally, if the world is destroyed, they'll disappear along with it. However... Da Vinci Since their Spirit Origin information won't be lost, we'll still be able to resummon them.

 

[Deagonx]

None of that says there's no Counter Force though? In fact, a careful reading of the scans suggests that there is Counter-Force ("its not possible to destroy the world") but that they can circumvent the Counterforce by removing the world from history. But I'm just inferring that since these scans don't mention Counterforce at all.

 

[Mageman460]

"It was amplified" is not the same thing as "it is now 5-B", you now need to provide evidence of that amplification working to that extent. Simply destroying the world wouldn't be sufficient, since we're now talking about a totally different feat.

To explain the feat a bit. The villain of Shinjuku used an ability that causes a bullet to never miss on a large asteroid in order to destroy the planet. His entire goal is planetary destruction. However, the asteroid colliding with the planet is explicitly not enough. As such the villain creates a large tower that acts as a gun barrel to shoot the asteroid at the planet's core to destroy the planet.

a+ rank nps and above would be baseline 5-B, the rest would be low 5-B

Also regarding this. He is trying to sneak in a change here. For complete clarity, Servants scale to 1/3rd A++ NPs in other words, whatever value the NPs would scale to, servants would scale to 1/3 of that.

Also regarding that massive thing you just posted. I did say ALL singularities. Shinjuku was specifically made from a culled timeline so that there would be no repercussions from attempting to destroy the world. Other singularities were not and in fact can impact PHH. That is part of Goetia's entire plan after all.

 

[KingNanaya]

I personally don't think the counterforce argument is reasonable. I also think that 5-C isn't reasonable as well. I do think the 6-A and high 6-A stuff has an argument that is logically sound, and will try my best to make a post about later today

 

[Deagonx]

The villain of Shinjuku used an ability that causes a bullet to never miss on a large asteroid in order to destroy the planet. His entire goal is planetary destruction. However, the asteroid colliding with the planet is explicitly not enough. As such the villain creates a large tower that acts as a gun barrel to shoot the asteroid at the planet's core to destroy the planet.

Thanks for the context. I think this more or less proves nothing was done to make the asteroid more durable, just speeding it up and making it so that it doesn't miss.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

None of that says there's no Counter Force though? In fact, a careful reading of the scans suggests that there is Counter-Force ("its not possible to destroy the world")

its normally not possible because of the counter force's presence. The counter force doesnt exist in the singularity because of its nature, so planetary destruction becomes possible.

Thanks for the context. I think this more or less proves nothing was done to make the asteroid more durable, just speeding it up and making it so that it doesn't miss.

Even the most basic of mage craft uses reinforcement.

Even though elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mana was the basis of all magecraft, due to the high degree of freedom and lack of concrete protocols, there were very few users who could reinforce everything.

 

[Deagonx]

Even the most basic of mage craft uses reinforcement.

This says "elevating the targets existence" and this doesnt mean that all enchantments, regardless of what their effect actually is, serves doubly as a reinforcement spell. Morevoer, as Bambu points out, without any concrete information on to what extent (if any) it was reinforced we cannot simply assume it was 5-A or etc. Enkidu destroying the meteor would only scale to the size of the meteor.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

its normally not possible because of the counter force's presence. The counter force doesnt exist in the singularity because of its nature, so planetary destruction becomes possible.

Even the most basic of mage craft uses reinforcement.

If that were the case, why does the thing you posted earlier specifically state this:

Reinforcement [Magecraft]
An elementary spell that was extremely difficult to master.
Even though elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mana was the basis of all magecraft, due to the high degree of freedom and lack of concrete protocols, there were very few users who could reinforce everything.
Shirou of course was only a half-baked user who could only reinforce weapon-related objects.
Since Reinforcement enhanced the target's meaning of existence, knives would become sharper, food would become more nutritious, and maids would become more moe.
It was impossible to reinforce something that was exceedingly vague.
By the way, it was difficult to infuse another living being with one's mana, thus Reinforcement of another human was a spell of highest difficulty.

It does not seem as though it is fundamentally an aspect of Magecraft if it is just one spell of Magecraft that high-end use of is exceptionally difficult to master.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

If that were the case, why does the thing you posted earlier specifically state this:

It does not seem as though it is fundamentally an aspect of Magecraft if it is just one spell of Magecraft that high-end use of is exceptionally difficult to master.

the fundamentals of it are easy to learn, thats why it says an elementary, but difficult to master spell, the basics (reinforcing the durability and power of your body parts or a weapon), is used by pretty much every mage that does combat, even aoko in mahoyo and rin use this application. However the more complicated facets ( like what shirou can use), are typically very hard to learn. The typical assumption of reinforcement used for combat is that increases the durability and powerr of something, as thats what its used for in pretty much every application.

This says "elevating the targets existence" and this doesnt mean that all enchantments, regardless of what their effect actually is, serves doubly as a reinforcement spell. Morevoer, as Bambu points out, without any concrete information on to what extent (if any) it was reinforced we cannot simply assume it was 5-A or etc. Enkidu destroying the meteor would only scale to the size of the meteor.

im not talking about the sf meteor, im talking about the shinjuku meteor.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

the fundamentals of it are easy to learn, thats why it says an elementary, but difficult to master spell, the basics (reinforcing the durability and power of your body parts or a weapon), is used by pretty much every mage that does combat, even aoko in mahoyo and rin use this application. However the more complicated facets ( like what shirou can use), are typically very hard to learn. The typical assumption of reinforcement used for combat is that increases the durability and powerr of something, as thats what its used for in pretty much every application.

I think the simplest way out of this discussion is to simply show where it was said to have been enhanced in durability.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I think the simplest way out of this discussion is to simply show where it was said to have been enhanced in durability.

are you asking for where it states that reinforcement increases durability?

 

[Deagonx]

are you asking for where it states that reinforcement increases durability?

No. Bruh. Where was it stated that the meteor was enhanced in durability/reinforced.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

No. Bruh. Where was it stated that the meteor was enhanced in durability/reinforced.

Magic Bullet Shooter: EX

The ability to fire magic bullets to shoot down targets and even overcome any kind of obstacle.

It is actually a Skill not from Moriarty, but from Der Freischütz.


Noble Phantasm
The Dynamics of an Asteroid: The Ultimate Crime
Rank: A+
Classification: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~99
Maximum Number of Targets: 100 people

The Noble Phantasm that embodies the “planetary destruction” Moriarty aims for. Because he was summoned as a Servant, it is being confined to “Anti-Army”, but if its power is amplified, its range can extend to “Anti-City” and “Anti-Country”. Piercing the earth with an enormous pile bunker, everything is swallowed up by the resulting fissures in the ground.

In the Shinjuku Chapter, by using this Noble Phantasm to its greatest extent, it took another step closer to achieving the destruction of the Protagonist and the planet.