Mash Calculation Stacking

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I edited the comment btw

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Not OP, but it seems like the only things that would need to be worked out are which panels to use and the timeframe? At least that's what I got from reading the last page of the thread?

This is ultra-wrong.

Eh, ever said I was right, only what i got from rereading the thread

 

[Agnaa]

I still want to understand what exactly the problem is here. You are not clear, do you disagree with using mach 7, with the method, or both? The method of "standing still" is not valid or something?

I disagree with using "mach 7" due to it being applied to the character through scaling.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I still want to understand what exactly the problem is here. You are not clear, do you disagree with using mach 7, with the method, or both? The method of "standing still" is not valid or something?

I disagree with using "mach 7" due to it being applied to the character through scaling.

So is that it? Just change the speed to subsonic or something?

 

[Agnaa]

So is that it? Just change the speed to subsonic or something?

Yeah, that's probably fine.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I still prefer to use mach 7

I will try to comment and create a sandbox using subsonic speed tomorrow

 

[Wokistan]

Got asked about the OP, so I'm not here for whatever verse specific stuff happened afterwards. It's not calc stacking because the speed of the character was not calculated to begin with... but it's not calc stacking in the sense of "calc stacking" being improper nomenclature more than it's not calc stacking in the sense of being 100% fine. The reasonings provided for disallowing that example of calc stacking still apply here, and the added step of the desired calculation not even being a direct comparison to the stated speed but instead having scaling in the muddle makes it extra sketch.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I already posted some examples

Oh shit, I have no idea how I missed those the first time I went through the thread.

I don't think the first two calcs should be accepted, and the third link doesn't work. I'll make threads for them after this, but perhaps the people who accepted them but haven't commented here (@DemonGodMitchAubin and @Psychomaster35) should be brought in here.

This is just a gross misrepresentation by LIFE OF KING about my calculation, as there's a major difference: His calculation uses scaling via characters fighting each other and the like while mine explicitly only uses statements (a statement about light speed, and a statement saying that one character is equal to another).

And if your issue is the timeframe being used, those types of feats are already being discussed in another thread.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't like using any scaling, whether it's through statements or feats, but I can see other calc group members disagreeing.

My issue is not the specifics of deriving a timeframe; it's using a stated speed in a calculation when that stated speed requires scaling to get there.

Really, I'd prefer that stated speeds come from (or refer to) the exact scene in the calculation, as otherwise our standards on calc stacking become full of contradictions, but that seems even less likely to be accepted.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

This is just a gross misrepresentation by LIFE OF KING about my calculation, as there's a major difference: His calculation uses scaling via characters fighting each other and the like while mine explicitly only uses statements (a statement about light speed, and a statement saying that one character is equal to another).

I mean that's sorta what's going on in Life's calc? Mach 7 is stated by Guy A, same Guy A that stated his attack is mach 7 then states that Guy B is superior or something along those lines, and Mash fights both, blitzing guy B with his bucket brigade?

Though it feels that subsonic is the best timeframe, when that's the most concrete speed

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean that's sorta what's going on in Life's calc? Mach 7 is stated by Guy A, same Guy A that stated his attack is mach 7 then states that Guy B is superior or something along those lines, and Mash fights both, blitzing guy B with his bucket brigade?

What he shows on the blog is "he's too fast for a casual Mash to react to" and links to a page of this Mash being outsped in combat. It's not the same thing

 

[AnAverageUsername]

What he shows on the blog is "he's too fast for a casual Mash to react to" and links to a page of this Mash being outsped in combat. It's not the same thing

Fair enough

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

LIFE OF KING/SandboxSexTime

vsbattles.fandom.com

Right, instead of using the subsonic speed I used the speed of a water jet in real life, the same logic used in many calculations with the same principle (An exemple). I think it makes things more accurate than randomly assuming that the jets have the subsonic speed

and the added step of the desired calculation not even being a direct comparison to the stated speed but instead having scaling in the muddle makes it extra sketch.

The main point about the thing is that the time difference between the events is a matter of minutes, not even hours. Everything happens in the same event, tournament and arc. Besides of course, the author really likes to be precise in terms of speed, so it ends up becoming more consistent with the logic

But well, most here haven't even read the manga and get the wrong idea about the thing

 

[WrongIdea21]

Mach 3? This is Mach 3

Whatever, the result is still good.. I don't have any problem with the calc.

 

[Agnaa]

Why is the speed of one of the fastest jets of water IRL (the abrasive waterjet) being used for this random magical attack when other waterjets exist? Both in that calc and the linked one.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Isn't that an assumption?
we assume people in real life have the same running speed as people in fiction..
we assume the water jets in real life with fiction water jets.
And one more, Water Mad Lance Isn't Random attack and but the linked one is.

 

[Agnaa]

I asked each calc group member who accepted it, so far one's gotten back to me and said it was a mistake. I think they all just screwed up and didn't apply proper scrutiny.

Assuming that every random water jet attack has the speed of a tiny precision cutter is ridiculous.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Why is the speed of one of the fastest jets of water IRL (the abrasive waterjet) being used for this random magical attack when other waterjets exist?

Although it is a magical water jet, the water is natural, it is even stated as one of the four classical elements of the world. In Mashle, the elements/concepts of spells have also constantly shown consistency of how a real one works, with sound magic acting as the physics in our world as an exemple, even respecting the fact that sound has different speed and characteristics on different materials.

Assuming that every random water jet attack has the speed of a tiny precision cutter is ridiculous.

A water jet cutter, also known as a water jet or waterjet, is an industrial tool capable of cutting a wide variety of materials using an extremely high-pressure jet of water, or a mixture of water and an abrasive substance. The term abrasive jet refers specifically to the use of a mixture of water and abrasive to cut hard materials such as metal, stone or glass, while the terms pure waterjet and water-only cutting refer to waterjet cutting without the use of added abrasives, often used for softer materials such as wood or rubber

Literally everything Domina's most basic spell can do

 

[Agnaa]

My most important response is that that's a barrier of water doing that. That is so far divorced from what's possible in reality that we can't equate it to the speeds of a tiny water jet.

A less important response is that, as the paragraph you quoted states, they can only cut hard materials such as stones by having an abrasive, not just water. Being able to slice stones in half like that from natural water is squarely in the realm of fiction.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

My most important response is that that's a barrier of water doing that

A barrier of water that is in a constant state of motion, yes

A less important response is that, as the paragraph you quoted states, they can only cut hard materials such as stones by having an abrasive, not just water.

The water jet keeps the same speed regardless of the material in it, the only difference is the force the jet gains as far I understand

 

[Agnaa]

A barrier of water that is in a constant state of motion, yes

Which is still over a wider area, and a longer distance. It looks like these machines are generally cutting from like 5-10cm away, while that barrier is meters high, its force should dissipate, yet it's able to slice stones in half above head height. And I also think it's extremely unlikely that throwing a rock at a jet would have the rock being clean cut in the middle; it should start getting cut and deflected as soon as it impacts, not halfway through. And with a rock that thick, I'd think it would take a lot more time to cut through it.

The water jet keeps the same speed regardless of the material in it, the only difference is the force the jet gains as far I understand

From what I know about materials that sounds wrong. Rather I'd expect the hardness to be the main thing that changes; with abrasive materials added, it can scratch (and eventually cut) materials that it otherwise wouldn't be able to.

But more importantly, I don't see how this responds to what I'm saying. I'm saying "It's unrealistic, because real water jets need abrasives added to cut through rocks" and your response is "The speed is the same", yet you're the one trying to demonstrate that this water is so realistic that it should get the speed of water jets.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Which is still over a wider area, and a longer distance. It looks like these machines are generally cutting from like 5-10cm away, while that barrier is meters high, its force should dissipate, yet it's able to slice stones in half above head height.

This is obviously because Domina has vastly greater reach/range and a much larger arcenal than any real-life pressure machine. Like, I think that's pretty obvious, and even if that is the case, there is this scene, where Domina uses a water jet of a few centimeters to pierce the body of a human. Also, your point about the "throwing a rock at a jet would have the rock being clean cut in the middle" seems like a biased thing to downgrade the feat, since Domina clearly threw the stone on top of the water barrier, not in the middle. He threw the stone right at the edge of the barrier.

From what I know about materials that sounds wrong.

Well, according to the article apparently the Abrasive only comes into action after the water already exceeds the speed of sound, so I don't know for sure. Also the wiki when talking about general characteristics mentions the speed to be mach 3, without even talking about the material in pariticular

And this:

The water then travels along the high pressure tubing to the nozzle of the waterjet. In the nozzle, the water is focused into a thin beam by a jewel orifice. This beam of water is ejected from the nozzle, cutting through the material by spraying it with the jet of speed on the order of Mach 3, around 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s). The process is the same for abrasive waterjets until the water reaches the nozzle. Here abrasives such as garnet and aluminium oxide, are fed into the nozzle via an abrasive inlet. The abrasive then mixes with the water in a mixing tube and is forced out the end at high pressure.

Yeah, the speed is with or without the material

 

[Agnaa]

This is obviously because Domina has vastly greater reach/range and a much larger arcenal than any real-life pressure machine.

And I think it is bad form to use real-life qualities for something that is supernatural. We don't know exactly how it changed to be able to perform these supernatural feats, so we can't concretely attribute certain properties to it.

Also, your point about the "hrowing a rock at a jet would have the rock being clean cut in the middle" seems like a biased thing to downgrade the feat, since Domina clearly threw the stone on top of the water barrier, not in the middle. He threw the stone right at the edge of the barrier.

It didn't look like that to me, but I guess I can kinda see it.

Well, according to the article apparently the Abrasive only comes into action after the water already exceeds the speed of sound, so I don't know for sure. Also the wiki when talking about general characteristics mentions the speed to be mach 3, without even talking about the material in pariticular

Again, my concern is not that waterjets with pure water can't reach those speeds. My concern is that to cut a rock you need an abrasive but this does not seem to involve an abrasive and therefore it is supernatural and unquantifiable because we don't know the specifics of how this unrealistic thing operates.

We do not assume that all water attacks which can cleave rocks in half are mach 3.

 

[KLOL506]

Why is the speed of one of the fastest jets of water IRL (the abrasive waterjet) being used for this random magical attack when other waterjets exist? Both in that calc and the linked one.

Why not just use the low-end baseline Supersonic one as a compromise?

 

[Agnaa]

Why not just use the low-end baseline Supersonic one as a compromise?

Where does that come from?

I think I might be fine with, like, using the speed of a fire hose, but I couldn't find any info on that from a quick search.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Couldn't subsonic be used as a low end? That's what most of the cast caps off at.

 

[KLOL506]

Why not just use the low-end baseline Supersonic one as a compromise?

Where does that come from?

I think I might be fine with, like, using the speed of a fire hose, but I couldn't find any info on that from a quick search.

Sorry NVM, I thought the link had a Mach 1 value, but the low-end at 300 MPa is Mach 2 (686 m/s).

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I'd still rather not use "precision cutting jet on lower power" speed.

 

[KLOL506]

Water cannons then?

 

[Agnaa]

That seems perfectly great, but at that point it may (or may not? I don't really know) be better for them to assume Subsonic.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Rock have 7k Psi there no way fire house with 90 psi can cut a Rock.

 

[Agnaa]

And there's no way a water wall 2m high (especially without an abrasive) could cleave a rock that big in half so quickly and so cleanly. It's supernatural either way.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

That seems perfectly great, but at that point it may (or may not? I don't really know) be better for them to assume Subsonic.

It would be better for it to be subsonic, because at that point it would be ignoring the basic verse speed. Mash at his top speed was able to almost tag a transonic character, a character that became literal sound when snapping and moved that fast.

Either subsonic or subsonic+ be used since that's basically Mash's confirmed speed without accounting for other wacky instances.

 

[Agnaa]

It would be better for it to be subsonic, because at that point it would be ignoring the basic verse speed. Mash at his top speed was able to almost tag a transonic character, a character that became literal sound when snapping and moved that fast.

Either subsonic or subsonic+ be used since that's basically Mash's confirmed speed without accounting for other wacky instances.

Be careful with your approach there, we do often "ignore the basic verse speed" when doing calcs to avoid calc stacking.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Be careful with your approach there, we do often "ignore the basic verse speed" when doing calcs to avoid calc stacking.

I dont mean it as in it was calculated or anything. I mean it was shown on paper, or on screen if you use Viz, that Mash was able to keep up with a transonic character, none of that calculation business.

Unless I'm misunderstanding and even that can be ignored, because if so, that's a huge shame.

 

[WrongIdea21]

The mechanical and source of that water is supranatural, yes, but Domina flat out said it's high pressure water. If the stone have 10k psi then you need water pressure above 10k psi to cut it.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also I just want to bring this up, probably not important, but just in case It could be, I'm posting it

 

[Agnaa]

Unless I'm misunderstanding and even that can be ignored, because if so, that's a huge shame.

Yeah, it can ignore that sorta thing. Characters with Transonic speeds can be assumed at athletic human for the sake of calcs.

The mechanical and source of that water is supranatural, yes, but Domina flat out said it's high pressure water. If the stone have 10k psi then you need water pressure above 10k psi to cut it.

But we can't get speed from AP like that. This used to be on the Calc Stacking page, but the example was bad and that specific case was already addressed on the Kinetic Energy Feats page. We can't say that destroying a material requires this much force, which when done with a mundane material requires it to be traveling at this speed, and use that speed for anything.

 

[KLOL506]

That seems perfectly great, but at that point it may (or may not? I don't really know) be better for them to assume Subsonic.

So might as well assume Subsonic for the jets, IRL water cannon speed too low. Great.

That just leaves us with the distance moved per cycle.

 

[KLOL506]

Unless I'm misunderstanding and even that can be ignored, because if so, that's a huge shame.

Yeah, it can ignore that sorta thing. Characters with Transonic speeds can be assumed at athletic human for the sake of calcs.

The mechanical and source of that water is supranatural, yes, but Domina flat out said it's high pressure water. If the stone have 10k psi then you need water pressure above 10k psi to cut it.

But we can't get speed from AP like that. This used to be on the Calc Stacking page, but the example was bad and that specific case was already addressed on the Kinetic Energy Feats page. We can't say that destroying a material requires this much force, which when done with a mundane material requires it to be traveling at this speed, and use that speed for anything.

There's one small issue.

You can't quantify AP from psi to begin with.

Also, just an interesting note, 300 MPa is like, 43511.3 psi, the one that wielded Mach 2.