Mash Calculation Stacking

[Agnaa]

I just came across this calc which uses the same timeframe as this calc which, to me, seems like blatant Calc Stacking.

Here's the justification given for the timeframe:

Canonically a Secondth of Lévis is stated to move 7 times the speed of sound. After that, Mash casually reacts and calculate that same speed. Even though Lévis saw Mash casually defending his attacks, he believed that Domina was invincible. Domina with the Third Line (a form stronger than the base) was able to go faster than Mash to the point that he could not defend. Therefore, I will use the mach 7 speed as the reaction for Domina, since it is more consistent to use a canonical number than to assume something random. And no, it is not "calculation stacking", since I am not using another calculation but yes the manga itself.

This is taking a stated speed from a completely different scene, then scaling it to another character, then scaling it to another character, and then using that for the calc. I think this should not be used due to going across many separate scenes (the initial statement, the first bit of scaling, the second bit of scaling, and finally the feat being calced).

The calc itself defends this by saying "It's not a calculation, it's stated from the story itself", which I do not believe justifies it. Despite the Calc Stacking page not explicitly saying anything on this, it does say some things which I think imply it:

Using speed of characters or attacks calculated at other instances can't be used, as characters and attacks can vary in speed. This is the case regardless of whether the character is seriously trying to do his best or anything similar.

I think the concern of characters and attacks varying in speed, and thus not using speeds from other instances, still applies here.

Using a reliable stated timeframe and reliably stated speed something travels during that timeframe one can calculate the distance travelled. Said distance can then usually be used for calculations. (Take heed that paths don't need to be straight and that speed reliably has to be constant)

Here it says that stated timeframes and speeds can be used to gather a distance, which can then be used for calculations. It does not say that stated speeds can generally be used, particularly across separate instances.

Since I can't ping staff myself, I'd like someone to ping @Damage3245, @CloverDragon03, @Armorchompy, @KLOL506, and @M3X for accepting these calcs, and @DontTalkDT due to him having participated in many threads about Calc Stacking. It may also be an idea to ping the creators of the calcs, @LIFE_OF_KING and @FlareTuathaDe .

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The method that I used is currently being revised, no? If so, I don't see why my calculation needs to be erased from existence. For now everything is fine as far as I can tell. Besides the fact that many mods agree that with current standards the method is not Calculation Stacking.

I can make some points tomorrow about why the speed is not variable thanks to the context of the verse. But in short, in itself Mash's power canonically varies, but he always adjusts according to the opponent's level, besides the fact that it was stated twice that he can move constantly without losing speed

 

[AnAverageUsername]

The method that I used is currently being revised, no? If so, I don't see why my calculation needs to be erased from existence. For now everything is fine as far as I can tell. Besides the fact that many mods agree that with current standards the method is not Calculation Stacking.

I can make some points tomorrow about why the speed is not variable thanks to the context of the verse. But in short, in itself Mash's power canonically varies, but he always adjusts according to the opponent's level, besides the fact that it was stated twice that he can move at constant movement without losing speed

Uh, LOK, it isn't about the Giant feat. It's about the UPM blitzing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I know, but I'm talking about Clover's comment

I don't think now is a good time for these kinds of feats, as it looks like the way we handle feats with stated speeds is getting reworked

 

[Agnaa]

The method that I used is currently being revised, no? If so, I don't see why my calculation needs to be erased from existence. For now everything is fine as far as I can tell.

I didn't realize, mb.

Besides the fact that many mods agree that with current standards the method is not Calculation Stacking.

I hope that they simply didn't think about things from this angle, and that my post will convince them otherwise. If it doesn't and staff thinks it's not calc stacking, then ofc it should stay.

I can make some points tomorrow about why the speed is not variable thanks to the context of the verse. But in short, in itself Mash's power canonically varies, but he always adjusts according to the opponent's level, besides the fact that it was stated twice that he can move constantly without losing speed

The Calc Stacking page explicitly says that we don't consider that sort of thing when saying that characters and attacks can vary in speed. Hell, even projectiles are assumed to move at different speeds in different scenes.

In short, I don't think there'd be much point in elaborating, since it doesn't seem terribly important.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yeah I agree with Agnaa. Seems pretty clear that we don't use scaling or other speed feats in calculations, which is why peak human or subsonic (if there is sufficient evidence of FTE movement) speed values are often assumed as a low-ball.

 

[Confluctor]

@Damage3245 @CloverDragon03 @Armorchompy @KLOL506 @M3X @DontTalkDT @LIFE_OF_KING and @FlareTuathaDe

Since I can't ping staff myself, I'd like someone to ping @Damage3245, @CloverDragon03, @Armorchompy, @KLOL506, and @M3X for accepting these calcs, and @DontTalkDT due to him having participated in many threads about Calc Stacking. It may also be an idea to ping the creators of the calcs, @LIFE_OF_KING and @FlareTuathaDe .

 

[Armorchompy]

idk

 

[Damage3245]

Seems effectively like calc stacking to me.

 

[KLOL506]

I think this is also being discussed in the Reactions revision on changing it. Where I agreed that actual stated speeds within a story can be used and should not amount to calc stacking, but that we need to be extremely strict with what goes through and what doesn't.

I'll tag the staff and the other key members that are involved in that thread too.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Arc7Kuroi @KingTempest @UchihaSlayer96

However, I don't think I accepted either of these specific calcs, and I stated that such feats would require explicit speed statements, not timeframe statements.

 

[Agnaa]

However, I don't think I accepted either of these specific calcs, and I stated that such feats would require explicit speed statements, not timeframe statements.

The first issue you pointed out was the pixel scaling being unclear. Then you said you were unsure whether the CRT regarding reaction speeds made the timeframe in the calc unusable or not.

Me saying that you accepted it like the other four did was a bit of loose wording, but at the very least, you didn't reject it over calc stacking concerns.

 

[WrongIdea21]

This provokes me to recalculate these feat.

 

[KLOL506]

The first issue you pointed out was the pixel scaling being unclear. Then you said you were unsure whether the CRT regarding reaction speeds made the timeframe in the calc unusable or not.

Me saying that you accepted it like the other four did was a bit of loose wording, but at the very least, you didn't reject it over calc stacking concerns.

I hadn't seen the previous Mash calc or it's methodology, but now that I look upon it, I can see that they deviate significantly from the typical Projectile Dodging Formula and my proposals in the Reactions revision thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyways, in my case, I don't think we should allow deriving timeframes from stated speeds. The only component we should be allowed to use in a calc is the speed itself.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Here was my rationale for accepting this, based on what LIFE_OF_KING provided:

Mash, when being very casual, was stated to have matched this Mach 7 speed. Domina is explicitly faster than a Mash fighting less casually, so Domina would be at least Mach 7. I think this addresses the "speed can vary" issue since it's a very clear cut chain, especially in terms of how casually Mash was fighting

 

[KLOL506]

Here was my rationale for accepting this, based on what LIFE_OF_KING provided:

Mash, when being very casual, was stated to have matched this Mach 7 speed. Domina is explicitly faster than a Mash fighting less casually, so Domina would be at least Mach 7. I think this addresses the "speed can vary" issue since it's a very clear cut chain, especially in terms of how casually Mash was fighting

I still think we should only use the speed value in the Projectile Dodging Feats formula and not derive anything else from that Mach 7 speed, and that we avoid further scaling chains and that we ask that the character directly dodges from the character that had the stated speed to begin with, for maximum accuracy.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I still think we should only use the speed value in the Projectile Dodging Feats formula and not derive anything else from that Mach 7 speed, and that we avoid further scaling chains and that we ask that the character directly dodges from the character that had the stated speed to begin with, for maximum accuracy.

I understand that, but I thought this scaling chain was basic enough that it'd be very easy to say "Domina is at the very least Mach 7"

 

[WrongIdea21]

I'm also concerned about the pixel scaling of King Of Life's calc in measuring Mash's mileage. apart from that another problem lies in this mach 7 case, where this calculation uses character scaling as the basis for calculations where Mach 7 < Mash Reaction speed< Domina Reaction Speed. Before this thread was created I had never seen this Calculation so I thought it wouldn't be a problem but it did.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think this is also being discussed in the Reactions revision on changing it. Where I agreed that actual stated speeds within a story can be used and should not amount to calc stacking, but that we need to be extremely strict with what goes through and what doesn't.

I'll tag the staff and the other key members that are involved in that thread too.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Arc7Kuroi @KingTempest @UchihaSlayer96

However, I don't think I accepted either of these specific calcs, and I stated that such feats would require explicit speed statements, not timeframe statements.

Yeah to my knowledge the validity of these types of calcs is explicitly being discussed in the reactions CRT. So would it be best to put this on hold until the conclusions of the reactions CRT, and then come back to it with official revised standards?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Are people already recalculating without even discussing? Bruh

The Calc Stacking page explicitly says that we don't consider that sort of thing when saying that characters and attacks can vary in speed. Hell, even projectiles are assumed to move at different speeds in different scenes.

Canonically Mash is able to make movements constantly without losing speed, even when he was a baby. Besides the fact that both fights take place respectively in the same arc, with a difference of 4 chapters, it is not so absurd to assume that the author has the slightest notion of the power of his verse (Especially considering how accurate he likes to be with speed). Domina is often called "invincible" and "the strongest opponent", and considering that Mash increases his characteristics according to his opponent, he should logically be at least as accurate as in the fight against Lévis's secondth

I'm also concerned about the pixel scaling of King Of Life's calc in measuring Mash's mileage.

Your calculation assumes only part of the actual distance

Using his incredible speed, Mash caught all the water shot at him in buckets and he dumbed each one down those stairs!! But occasionally he'd return to stand in front of his opponent so it looked like he hadn't moved. He did that tens of thousands of times in a mere instant

His "thousands of moves" were not just him getting close to the poseidon and coming back, as your calculation assumes, he made several different actions and alternative paths

Before this thread was created I had never seen this Calculation so I thought it wouldn't be a problem but it did.

Fairy Tail: Selene Blitzes Suzaku

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hikone's Speed Defies Physics

vsbattles.fandom.com

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User%20blog:Arc7Kuroi/Candice?%20Candice%20di-

---

But anyway, using KLOL's formula the result will increase a lot, but let's try

Here and here it is shown that during Mash's movements the projectiles are not moving in perspective

(762/0.013)*4420960.42064 = 259136295425m/s or 863.787651417c

Well, that's sex

Using the average jogging speed (3.17m/s). The lowest possible result

(3.17/0.013)*4420960.42064 = 3.59344731626c

 

[KLOL506]

But anyway, using KLOL's formula the result will increase a lot, but let's try

Here and here it is shown that during Mash's movements the projectiles are not moving in perspective

(762/0.013)*4420960.42064 = 259136295425m/s or 863.787651417c

Well, that's sex

Using the average jogging speed (3.17m/s). The lowest possible result

(3.17/0.013)*4420960.42064 = 3.59344731626c

Not my formula, it's @CloverDragon03's, but...

Is there any statement in that story that he viewed shit as frozen? As in, was the word "frozen" stated by the story verbatim with regards to how Mash views the world?

Because the 0.013 m/s snail speed value is only usable if there are explicit statements of "seeing stuff as borderline frozen".

Also where'd you get the 0.00041649312 s timeframe from? Manga shows 0.003 seconds. And 8000 km/h is 2222.2222 m/s. T= D/V, D being 10m, we'd actually get: 10/2222.2222 0.0045 seconds.

Oh, the 4420960.42064 value is the distance moved, it's not the speed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Domina starts the attack in position X, Mash makes his thousands of moves while Domina is in position X, and yet Domina is shown in the same position after several intants

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

 

[WrongIdea21]

Your calculation assumes only part of the actual distance
His "thousands of moves" were not just him getting close to the poseidon and coming back, as your calculation assumes, he made several different actions and alternative paths

My Calculation is based on the context of Finn Statement, Mash didn't do any Additional action, he just drained Poseidon and dumped it in one place, what I'm having trouble with from your calculations is that there are three different panels that you connect and it's as if you're increasing Mash's distance even though there's no such indication, you're assuming that whereas mine doesn't. I didn't measure the Distance when he drained Domina because Domina's range was closer than Poseidon, my drawback is that it doesn't take the panel when Mash drains Poseidon from all angles but that won't make any significant difference.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

My Calculation is based on the context of Finn Statement, Mash didn't do any Additional action, he just drained Poseidon and dumped it in one place

Yes. he distance you calculated is only an insignificant part of it all. This scene shows only a fraction of everything. He still has to reach the hole, while also standing in front of Domina. Mash was not just getting close to the poseidon and coming back, Finn explains this clearly

Using his incredible speed, Mash caught all the water shot at him in buckets and he dumbed each one down those stairs!! But occasionally he'd return to stand in front of his opponent so it looked like he hadn't moved. He did that tens of thousands of times in a mere instant

Movements:

1. "Mash caught all the water shot at him in buckets"
2. "he dumbed each one down those stairs"
3. "he'd return to stand in front of his opponent so it looked like he hadn't moved"
4. And these

 

[WrongIdea21]

Yes. he distance you calculated is only an insignificant part of it all. This scene shows only a fraction of everything. He still has to reach the hole, while also standing in front of Domina. Mash was not just getting close to the poseidon and coming back, Finn explains this clearly

Movements:

1. "Mash caught all the water shot at him in buckets"
2. "he dumbed each one down those stairs"
3. "he'd return to stand in front of his opponent so it looked like he hadn't moved"
4. And these

Domina's position exactly in the Front of Poseidon, Mash just Passing him and go back to his position, him circling the domina position is useless either because Poseidon's position is further than Domina's position, So I choose the longer distance, I don't care that Mash jumps or drains him from all sides, I just focus on the point where Mash and Poseidon make contacts and throw the Water because that's where the main point.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Also via using KLOL's Method Mash 7 Mach feats have an Upgrade.

 

[KLOL506]

Also via using KLOL's Method Mash 7 Mach feats have an Upgrade.

I'm not too sure about this.

Is there any statement in that story that he viewed shit as frozen? As in, was the word "frozen" stated by the story verbatim with regards to how Mash views the world?

Because the 0.013 m/s snail speed value is only usable if there are explicit statements of "seeing stuff as borderline frozen".

Also where'd you get the 0.00041649312 s timeframe from? Manga shows 0.003 seconds. And 8000 km/h is 2222.2222 m/s. T= D/V, D being 10m, we'd actually get: 10/2222.2222 0.0045 seconds, close.

Oh, the 4420960.42064 value is the distance moved, it's not the speed.

These concerns have not yet been answered.

Formula is this:

Person's true speed: (Object's true speed / Object's Apparent Speed) * Person's Apparent Speed

We have the true object speed: 8000 kmh or 2222.2222 m/s

We have the person's apparent speed as at least 34.3 m/s for creating afterimages.

But what is the Object's apparent speed? As in, the speed we see the object moving at on the screen?

Because if I use snail speed for this assuming there are any statements that straight up say "Mash viewed stuff in front of him as frozen":

Person's true speed: (2222.2222 / 0.013) * 34.3= 5863247.80462 m/s or 0.01955768948870621 c

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Honestly why can't we just use Subsonic or Subsonic+ when that's Mash's most consistent speed.

I mean, Mashle is wack with it's speed at times, but c'mon

 

[Agnaa]

Welp, I guess this is a thread about all aspects of the Mash calc now.

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

For static media, like manga, you do need a statement even if they're in the same position. I have seen both KLOL and Damage say this.

 

[KLOL506]

Welp, I guess this is a thread about all aspects of the Mash calc now.

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

For static media, like manga, you do need a statement even if they're in the same position. I have seen both KLOL and Damage say this.

Bruh, what on earth is that bolded statement, I'm legit dumbfounded, who even made that LMFAO

 

[AnAverageUsername]

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

Bruh, what on earth is that bolded statement, I'm legit dumbfounded, who even made that LMFAO

I ain't a snitch...
But-

 

[KLOL506]

Domina starts the attack in position X, Mash makes his thousands of moves while Domina is in position X, and yet Domina is shown in the same position after several intants

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

 

[WrongIdea21]

I'm not too sure about this.


These concerns have not yet been answered.

Formula is this:

Person's true speed: (Object's true speed / Object's Apparent Speed) * Person's Apparent Speed

We have the true object speed: 8000 kmh or 2222.2222 m/s

We have the person's apparent speed as at least 34.3 m/s for creating afterimages.

But what is the Object's apparent speed? As in, the speed we see the object moving at on the screen?

Because if I use snail speed for this assuming there are any statements that straight up say "Mash viewed stuff in front of him as frozen":

Person's true speed: (2222.2222 / 0.013) * 34.3= 5863247.80462 m/s or 0.01955768948870621 c

I thought this Method can be aplied on Projectile dodging Feats?

 

[WrongIdea21]

Welp, I guess this is a thread about all aspects of the Mash calc now.

You don't need a statement if it is explicit

For static media, like manga, you do need a statement even if they're in the same position. I have seen both KLOL and Damage say this.

It's stated to be instant tho.

 

[Agnaa]

"Instant" is generally lowballed to "1 second", rather than a literal interpretation of "0 seconds".

It is not taken to mean something in the middle like "As if the other character was frozen" (which would put all of those feats at minimum at Supersonic).

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Just here to say that Domina, the one that was getting blitzed, was viewing Mash as "frozen". Not because he was blitzing Mash, but because Mash was blitzing him.

 

[KLOL506]

I thought this Method can be aplied on Projectile dodging Feats?

No, Projectile Dodging has its own formula. Slow-Mo is its own formula. The two should not be mixed.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

No, Projectile Dodging has its own formula. Slow-Mo is its own formula. The two should not be mixed.

What is the slo-mo formula?

 

[WrongIdea21]

"Instant" is generally lowballed to "1 second", rather than a literal interpretation of "0 seconds".

It is not taken to mean something in the middle like "As if the other character was frozen" (which would put all of those feats at minimum at Supersonic).

What? Domina seen Mash as a Frozen object, 1 second is below average human. Wtf

 

[WrongIdea21]

No, Projectile Dodging has its own formula. Slow-Mo is its own formula. The two should not be mixed.

Okay then.