Fairy Tail FTL+ Downgrade

[Floxy178]

We didn't even see Georg moving after standing like that. Yes, arm length is quite lowball but only if Selene started moving at the same time or after Georg's punch(which wasn't shown)

 

[CloverDragon03]

We didn't even see Georg moving after standing like that. Yes, arm length is quite lowball but only if Selene started moving at the same time or after Georg's punch(which wasn't shown)

So my response just went completely unaddressed? I’d consider my interpretation far more likely than any other, given the context

 

[Floxy178]

So my response just went completely unaddressed? I’d consider my interpretation far more likely than any other, given the context

We didn't see start of motion of them both. But here you don't only assume that Georg started moving at full speed even though we didn't see it, but also this happened before Selene started moving. How is this far more likely?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, it’s quite simple really. Georg’s all like “Lemme show you my Four Beasts Dragon Slayer Magic” so he’s evidently moving to attack - and Selene also didn’t cut him off mid-sentence, as that would be expressed in the dialogue if she did.

It also helps that given all this, I feel Occam’s Razor would support my interpretation more than any other. Now, Occam’s Razor is more of a heuristic, but I digress

 

[Vzearr]

I've got a few questions and problems.

1. The distance Selene moved, is this not a highball without any evidence to back it up? I mean, you take Selene's full arm length into account. Why is that? Wouldn't it be better to use her forearm and hand length instead? But eh, not sure about that point.

2. Your calc assumes that she lifts her arm up 11.8 meters without any evidence, she could have lifted her arm just above Georg's height, I don't see any reason for us to assume she practically lifted it above her head or even near it. Even if you want to assume she lifted it that high, you'd have to remove Georg's height since there isn't evidence that he was still moving when her arm landed on him.

3. Your calc assumes that Georg reached his peak velocity as soon as he started punching, its a bit odd, just thought I'd mention it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I've got a few questions and problems.

1. The distance Selene moved, is this not a highball without any evidence to back it up? I mean, you take Selene's full arm length into account. Why is that? Wouldn't it be better to use her forearm and hand length instead? But eh, not sure about that point.

2. Your calc assumes that she lifts her arm up 11.8 meters without any evidence, she could have lifted her arm just above Georg's height, I don't see any reason for us to assume she practically lifted it above her head or even near it. Even if you want to assume she lifted it that high, you'd have to remove Georg's height since there isn't evidence that he was still moving when her arm landed on him.

3. Your calc assumes that Georg reached his peak velocity as soon as he started punching, its a bit odd, just thought I'd mention it.

1. Given her arms were on the ground before, she had to have lifted them up and then slammed them down to end up in the position she was in when she killed him. Judging by the difference in her positions, she didn't just move her forearms, but her entire arms. So no, it's not at all "a highball without any evidence to back it up."
2. You keep saying everything I'm doing is "without any evidence." Like, no, stop that. To begin with, your own assertion is lacking in evidence in itself. And in addition, it'd be a deliberately awkward move on Selene's part to stop her arm movement partway through and then bring her arms down. This is especially the case in shonen series, which are filled with exaggerated movements for the sake of reading better in visual media. In such a thing, this would be an unreasonably stiff movement.
3. This is just standard fare. He was evidently going all out from the start, and full-power battles in Fairy Tail (hell, shonen in general) starting immediately at top speed is nothing new. You might find it a bit odd, but it's not really a counterpoint tbh.

 

[Vzearr]

Given her arms were on the ground before, she had to have lifted them up and then slammed them down to end up in the position she was in when she killed him. Judging by the difference in her positions, she didn't just move her forearms, but her entire arms. So no, it's not at all "a highball without any evidence to back it up."

she didn't just move her forearms, but her entire arms.

90 degree movement would be a highball then imo, the minimum distance she would have to move her arm to hit him would be much less then that, why are we assuming she would move more then she has to move to hit him, it'd be wildly inefficient and plain illogical on her end.

You keep saying everything I'm doing is "without any evidence." Like, no, stop that. To begin with, your own assertion is lacking in evidence in itself. And in addition, it'd be a deliberately awkward move on Selene's part to stop her arm movement partway through and then bring her arms down. This is especially the case in shonen series, which are filled with exaggerated movements for the sake of reading better in visual media. In such a thing, this would be an unreasonably stiff movement.

An assumption that takes minimum values is always better then an assumption that somewhat highballs values in a feat where there isn't any evidence behind the somewhat highballed values.

 

[CloverDragon03]

90 degree movement would be a highball then imo, the minimum distance she would have to move her arm to hit him would be much less then that, why are we assuming she would move more then she has to move to hit him, it'd be wildly inefficient and plain illogical on her end.

An assumption that takes minimum values is always better then an assumption that somewhat highballs values in a feat where there isn't any evidence behind the somewhat highballed values.

I'm not going to agree with this approach when it results in completely stunted movement just for the sake of having a lower value, if I'm being honest. My opinion on the calc remains unchanged

 

[Vzearr]

You can't prove the 90 degree movement yet you want to go with it, its not a difficult decision to just calculate her minimum movement.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You can't prove the 90 degree movement yet you want to go with it, its not a difficult decision to just calculate her minimum movement.

I've already explained the rationale, so simply asserting "you can't prove it" doesn't actually get you anywhere. I'm not going to go with something that results in unrealistically stunted movement (in a medium that, if anything, emphasizes more exaggerated movement) just because it results in a lower result. It being lower doesn't make it better

 

[Floxy178]

I mean, it’s quite simple really. Georg’s all like “Lemme show you my Four Beasts Dragon Slayer Magic” so he’s evidently moving to attack

I understand his intention to do this but that still doesn't prove that he started moving(what we haven't even seen) his fist before Selene started moving.

and Selene also didn’t cut him off mid-sentence, as that would be expressed in the dialogue if she did.

That doesn't mean that she didn't start moving before?

 

[Vzearr]

I've already explained the rationale, so simply asserting "you can't prove it" doesn't actually get you anywhere. I'm not going to go with something that results in unrealistically stunted movement (in a medium that, if anything, emphasizes more exaggerated movement) just because it results in a lower result. It being lower doesn't make it better

What's unrealistic is your assumption that she would move a greater distance than necessary to hit Georg.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I understand his intention to do this but that still doesn't prove that he started moving(what we haven't even seen) his fist before Selene started moving.

So... You acknowledge he is moving to attack, yet also don't acknowledge him moving to attack? What?

That doesn't mean that she didn't start moving before?

It's a lot less likely, considering that if Selene was already moving beforehand while Georg was speaking, he would've been aware of it. Meanwhile, Suzaku (who is comparable to Haku and can react to comparable opponents at close range) couldn't see Selene moving at all

What's unrealistic is your assumption that she would move a greater distance than necessary to hit Georg.

You're free to think that, but I've already explained my rationale for why that's not the case. I'd just be repeating myself

 

[Floxy178]

So... You acknowledge he is moving to attack, yet also don't acknowledge him moving to attack? What?

He was going to do this but we haven't seen him to do, even if we assume that he moved some distance this still doesn't mean that Selene started moving after that

It's a lot less likely, considering that if Selene was already moving beforehand while Georg was speaking, he would've been aware of it.

It was a perception blitz? Georg could have started moving after and not noticing it as he wasn't able to perceive it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

He was going to do this but we haven't seen him to do, even if we assume that he moved some distance this still doesn't mean that Selene started moving after that

There's nothing to prove she started moving before Georg did despite you asserting that btw, what you're saying is entirely conjectural. I'm simply comparing Georg's maximum possible movement to Selene's movement within the same timeframe.

It was a perception blitz? Georg could have started moving after and not noticing it as he wasn't able to perceive it.

Again, very likely not the case given that the panel right before shows Georg and Selene with the latter having her arms on the ground. And for your interpretation to even remotely work, either Georg would've had to be cut off mid-sentence (which as we know didn't happen) or Selene would've had to just be sitting there with her arms up for a moment before slamming them down (which doesn't even make any sense to begin with).

Just because a different interpretation exists, doesn't make it actually plausible.

 

[Floxy178]

There's nothing to prove she started moving before Georg did despite you asserting that btw, what you're saying is entirely conjectural. I'm simply comparing Georg's maximum possible movement to Selene's movement within the same timeframe.

No one said that she exactly started moving before, you just ignore that she could. Timeframe isn't equal if you don't prove when Selene started moving compared to Georg.

Again, very likely not the case given that the panel right before shows Georg and Selene with the latter having her arms on the ground.

In the same panel Georg doesn't seem to punch, when he does we don't see Selene there

And for your interpretation to even remotely work, either Georg would've had to be cut off mid-sentence (which as we know didn't happen) or Selene would've had to just be sitting there with her arms up for a moment before slamming them down (which doesn't even make any sense to begin with).

Why do you think that he was already moving during speech?

 

[Damage3245]

Again, very likely not the case given that the panel right before shows Georg and Selene with the latter having her arms on the ground. And for your interpretation to even remotely work, either Georg would've had to be cut off mid-sentence (which as we know didn't happen)

That's not a strict necessity. She just needs to attack him once he's finished speaking.

 

[CloverDragon03]

No one said that she exactly started moving before, you just ignore that she could. Timeframe isn't equal if you don't prove when Selene started moving compared to Georg.

Well yeah, I'm not going to pay much mind to interpretations that - after reading through the rationale - I find to be completely implausible. An interpretation existing doesn't automatically make it plausible.

In the same panel Georg doesn't seem to punch, when he does we don't see Selene there

Why do you think that he was already moving during speech?

I've cover these both simultaneously since they have the same issue:

You're missing my point. I'm saying that Georg starts punching out when he finishes talking, and then as he punches out, Selene slams her arms down on him. That's really all there is to this. Selene having moved before Georg would mean she's pretty much just waiting with her arms up for Georg to finish talking without him noticing somehow. That doesn't make any sense.

That's not a strict necessity. She just needs to attack him once he's finished speaking.

This pretty much means she was just sitting there waiting with her arms up for him to finish speaking, with Georg somehow not noticing that she was readying this attack and also despite the fact that this is depicted as being in one fell swoop.

Again, not seeing how this interpretation holds any merit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, don't expect many more responses for the moment (probably the rest of the day, idk), I've got irl work to take care of

 

[Damage3245]

Likewise I don't see how the interpetation that they made simultaneous attacks is an ironclad assumption either.

In the case of equal interpretation, the calc could be accepted as "possibly" rating if we're unable to find a better solution or if we don't get more input from other Calc Group members.

Also, don't expect many more responses for the moment (probably the rest of the day, idk), I've got irl work to take care of

No worries, take care.

 

[Wisdomx17]

It seems as if Selene crushed Georg just as he finished speaking, that is, before Georg started to attack. It is true that there is showiness in the fights in Shonen manga. We also know how strong Selene is in the verse. So, I think Selene crushed Georg before he attacked. .Because if Georg were to attack, I hope that the tiny panel on the left right after the speech would not be scratched. In Shonens, usually in such fights, the person is killed right when he finishes his sentence or before he can finish it (In similar scenes with characters similar to these.) Also, in the calculation, it is taken into account that Selene moved her entire arm. We need evidence to get it. Instead, it would make more sense to assume that he lifted the ball as lowball as Georg's height.

 

[Floxy178]

You're missing my point. I'm saying that Georg starts punching out when he finishes talking, and then as he punches out, Selene slams her arms down on him. That's really all there is to this.

Ok, so you don't claim that he started moving during speech, then cut off mid-sentence argument won't work

Selene having moved before Georg would mean she's pretty much just waiting with her arms up for Georg to finish talking without him noticing somehow. That doesn't make any sense.

No. We don't know when she began to move, but as I undersood you claim like we say she moved at the beginning or smth like that. Can you say what is the problem with it:

Georg started talking, then Selene began to move and then she finally hit him(even if he moved some distance while being hit , that won't change anything either since Selene began moving during speech).

 

[KLOL506]

I believe Clover seems to make more sense here. It'd make no sense for Selene to just wait it out, that's literally leaving yourself vulnerable to further combat shenanigans.

 

[Damage3245]

I believe Clover seems to make more sense here. It'd make no sense for Selene to just wait it out, that's literally leaving yourself vulnerable to further combat shenanigans.

I mean, she let him speak in the first place. I don't think anyone insinuated that she waited an unusually long time after he finished speaking. To me it seems that the moment he finished speaking, she unleashed her attack, and we don't see him do his attack at all.

 

[PhoenixFirestorm]

If anything, Suzaku, who also moves extremely fast, didn't see Selene's movement either while and after Selene killed Georg.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, she let him speak in the first place. I don't think anyone insinuated that she waited an unusually long time after he finished speaking. To me it seems that the moment he finished speaking, she unleashed her attack, and we don't see him do his attack at all.

Again, that still doesn't explain why she'd just move up her arms before Georg finished talking. That'd leave plenty of time for Georg to straight up just not be in her arms' path AKA he'd never fall for an obvious trap in the first place.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, that still doesn't explain why she'd just move up her arms before Georg finished talking. That'd leave plenty of time for Georg to straight up just not be in her arms' path AKA he'd never fall for an obvious trap in the first place.

How much time does he need for him to have been able to react and dodge out of the way?

Also, I don't think I said anything about her lifting her arms up before he finished talking.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, I don't think I said anything about her lifting her arms up before he finished talking.

Popping in briefly to say: that was, at the very least, something Floxy was arguing (as a potential interpretation) that I thought made no sense

 

[KLOL506]

How much time does he need for him to have been able to react and dodge out of the way?

If he sees the arms up like that before finishing his speech then he just moves away before Selene ever lunges, which is clearly not what would happen in an actual combat scenario, as it'd be glaringly open for everyone to see and call out.

Also, I don't think I said anything about her lifting her arms up before he finished talking.

Then why is everybody else bringing that up?

 

[Damage3245]

Popping in briefly to say: that was, at the very least, something Floxy was arguing (as a potential interpretation) that I thought made no sense

Ah, fair enough.

Then why is everybody else bringing that up?

Not sure; seems like that was a point Floxy brought up instead.

Not what I was bringing up myself.

 

[Floxy178]

If he sees the arms up like that before finishing his speech then he just moves away before Selene ever lunges, which is clearly not what would happen in an actual combat scenario, as it'd be glaringly open for everyone to see and call out.

Why everyone is absolutly sure that Georg could perceive it if Selene moved first?(unknown time before)

Neither start of Slene's attack nor start of Georg's move was shown. Selene could hit him while he was moving, yeah, but that doesn't mean she couldn't begin her attack before Georg's.

 

[KLOL506]

Why everyone is absolutly sure that Georg could perceive it if Selene moved first?(unknown time before)

Neither start of Slene's attack nor start of Georg's move was shown. Selene could hit him while he was moving, yeah, but that doesn't mean she couldn't begin her attack before Georg's.

Because it'd be a stupid move to make regardless as to lift your arms up like what you're proposing before someone's done talking leaves you wide open to outside attacks?

I can't believe this is even a point of discussion in the first place, even harder to believe is that we're even giving this thought-process the time of day.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because it'd be a stupid move to make regardless as to lift your arms up like what you're proposing before someone's done talking leaves you wide open to outside attacks?

I can't believe this is even a point of discussion in the first place, even harder to believe is that we're even giving this thought-process the time of day.

Agreed. This really shouldn't be the contentious point that it is, when you break it all down

 

[Damage3245]

Because it'd be a stupid move to make regardless as to lift your arms up like what you're proposing before someone's done talking leaves you wide open to outside attacks?

I can't believe this is even a point of discussion in the first place, even harder to believe is that we're even giving this thought-process the time of day.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Floxy's post that you replied to there didn't say she raised her arm while he was still speaking. Just that she did it before he could unleash his attack.

So it'd be a situation where they didn't attack at the same time, but she attacked first.

 

[KLOL506]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Floxy's post that you replied to there didn't say she raised her arm while he was still speaking. Just that she did it before he could unleash his attack.

As per the blog:

"I'll be using Georg's arm length as his movement here, as the above scan shows that he appeared to be winding up a punch. This is a lowball, considering that he didn't finish the punch by the time Selene finished her movement, but it's the most reasonable estimate based on what we know."

In any case, even winding up the punch right before finishing would require Georg to still move his body at top speed first, it's not as if he reaches top speed upon landing the attack.

So it'd be a situation where they didn't attack at the same time, but she attacked first.

It's not so much about the attacks landing but rather the individual movement. Georg lunged first (Without ever finishing what he started), so Selene would react and slam down on him as a result.

 

[Damage3245]

As per the blog:

"I'll be using Georg's arm length as his movement here, as the above scan shows that he appeared to be winding up a punch. This is a lowball, considering that he didn't finish the punch by the time Selene finished her movement, but it's the most reasonable estimate based on what we know."

In any case, even winding up the punch right before finishing would require Georg to still move his body at top speed first, it's not as if he reaches top speed upon landing the attack.

How so? I don't see any indication of that from the pages of the manga.

It's not so much about the attacks landing but rather the individual movement. Georg lunged first (Without ever finishing what he started), so Selene would react and slam down on him as a result.

The point that I raised is that we never see Georg start his attack. So we have no confirmation that he "lunged first".

 

[KLOL506]

How so? I don't see any indication of that from the pages of the manga.

Him prepping up his punch right by his side?

The point that I raised is that we never see Georg start his attack. So we have no confirmation that he "lunged first".

So what's the fist beside his torso then?

 

[Damage3245]

Him prepping up his punch right by his side?


So what's the fist beside his torso then?

That's a fist being prepared for an attack - but Selene smashes him into the ground seemingly before he can do anything more than that. Like how you or I can ball up our hands into a fist and draw back our arm to get ready to throw a punch - but then someone who's faster can sucker-punch us in the face before we start actually throwing the punch.

Just because he has his fist beside his torso doesn't mean we actually see him throwing a punch at the exact same time that Selene is moving.

 

[KLOL506]

That's a fist being prepared for an attack - but Selene smashes him into the ground seemingly before he can do anything more than that. Like how you or I can ball up our hands into a fist and draw back our arm to get ready to throw a punch - but then someone who's faster can sucker-punch us in the face before we start actually throwing the punch.

You do realize that this usually also results in moving our torso in turn to balance ourselves during the punch, right?

Just because he has his fist beside his torso doesn't mean we actually see him throwing a punch at the exact same time that Selene is moving.

Refer to the point I made above. It's moving the torso here with the fist that counts.

 

[Damage3245]

You do realize that this usually also results in moving our torso in turn to balance ourselves during the punch, right?

I don't see what that has to do with us not seeing the actual punch. Do you think that Georg is throwing the punch as he is talking? If not can you show in which panel we see him punching?