Marvel "Upgrades"

[Malomtek]

None of us has dismissed that... It's already on the file. What you are proposing is completely different.

It's literally all just the same thing at the end of the day: the ability to control one's energy so that it doesn't cause unwanted secondary effects.

Dragon Ball comparisons remain apt because they work on the exact same principle.

I really don't know what you want here.

For people in this thread to recognize that fictional characters in general can control the AoE of their attacks, something which apparently has to be done now.

Show us a statement in which this is said by a writer in Marvel in the case of Thor.

If you need a Marvel writer to spell out for you that Thor can control his own energy, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

There's something about the way you guys treat evidence too. Toriyama's comments on "ki control" are extremely vague and don't explain any of the actual mechanics of ki control, yet you guys assume this means that DBZ characters control the AoE of their attacks. Yet Thor can be shown commanding multiple different types of energies, and you guys start asking for a statement from Marvel writers that he can do an analogous "energy control". It's stupid.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

If you need a Marvel writer to spell out for you that Thor can control his own energy, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

There's something about the way you guys treat evidence too. Toriyama's comments on "ki control" are extremely vague and don't explain any of the actual mechanics of ki control, yet you guys assume this means that DBZ characters control the AoE of their attacks. Yet Thor can be shown commanding multiple different types of energies, and you guys start asking for a statement from Marvel writers that he can do an analogous "energy control". It's stupid.

Utilizing energy and controlling it with fine precision are two different things.

Also that isn't the statement I was talking about. It was more explicit if I remember correctly. Ask a DB member here if you want.

 

[Confluctor]

Every thread on this damn site turns in a dragon ball fest. Sadge

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Unpog! Anywho, about those standards I suggested…

 

[Confluctor]

Anywho, about those standards I suggested…

Ignored

Welp, I typed up a rough draft. Feel free to modify it however necessary.

“Power-Scaling to Restricted Characters”​

Many Comic Book Superheroes (ex. Superman, Thor, Silver Surfer, Hulk) have moral obligations that inhibit the use of deadly force, causing them hold back immensely on most occasions. Fights involving these characters should be heavily scrutinized to avoid erroneously scaling weaker characters to their full strength. Therefore to ensure accuracy of our statistics, these instructions have been implemented to analyze these instances:

Scenario 1: If a character performs an impressive feat during a battle against a restricted character (ex. Abomination causing an earthquake in a clash with the Hulk) they should be preferably be rated based on that feat.

Scenario 2: If a character doesn’t perform any feat and it isn’t discernible how strong the held-back character was during their fight, the character should be rated based on their other showings or fights with different characters.

Scenario 3: If a character doesn't have any thing to go off of besides fighting a character who is known to hold back, they should preferably rated as Unknown in lack of better options.

Scenario 4: If the character fights a character known to hold back in a circumstance where they are explicitly fighting seriously (ex. they intend to kill or the character is in a scenario where they have no reason to hold back, for example an unpopulated area) then scaling to their full strength would be allowed.

• Battles set in populated areas should be heavily questioned due to the factor of collateral damage. Note that certain characters may be listed as unreliable to scale from due to sheer inconsistency or having Variable Tiers.

​

I obviously agree.

Just in case if someone missed it...^^

 

[Antvasima]

Malomtek, please stop with the rude derailing, so we can get something constructive done here, and this entire conversation does not turn toxic.

 

[Malomtek]

Malomtek, please stop with the rude derailing, so we can get something constructive done here, and this entire conversation does not turn toxic.

I'm not "derailing" anything. What I've been arguing has been entirely on-topic and relevant to the discussion at hand.

In any case, I find @Maverick_Zero_X's standards to be reasonable, and have already stated my position on scaling to Thor.

 

[The_Impress]

Can you people make your comments one at a time, please? I starting feel like I'm being ganged up on.

Free country.

And the control of his own lightning, the Anti-Force, etc. But it seems you somehow forgot that.

...do you not know Lightning =/= General Energy Manipulation?

How does any of that relate to controlling the AoE of their attacks?

If you can manipulate your energy blasts to fit in specific borders and shapes, you can argue they can control the AoE of their attacks.

I can do this nonsense too, you know.

...asking questions isn't "nonsense", so go for it.

I'm just going to say "good luck" to whatever massive "DBZ downgrade" thread you're going to make.

Don't plan to, not my verse.

It also wastes a lot of energy better used for hitting the opponent.

That Thor doesn't do, in order to not kill his opponents.

If you can't see the difference between controlling an attack's real power and controlling an attack's apparent area of effect, then I really cannot help you.

You have to prove why what Thor doing is the former, not the latter.

Are you really doing this right now?

Yes.

No it doesn't. He just has to control Mjolnir's AoE so that when he hits someone, it doesn't blow up the planet or solar system or something.

Which is a non-existent hyperspecific mechanism.

Aren't most of the characters Thor faces more along the lines of cosmic villains, and not the average street level thug?

Did you notice most those Cosmic Villains we tend to list 4-B? Hell most which don't can even get it back.

Spoiler: Next few points have the same response tbh

"Dividing a few more tenths" would make these characters small planet level or moon level for fighting Thor. You're arguing that a "restrained" Thor is large island level, and large island level is literally around 10^25 times or so lesser than Thor's general actual power (solar system level).

And yes, you're finally getting my point. Even if Thor was restraining himself against someone, as long as he fights them semi seriously, and they don't go down too quickly, they should scale to some meaningfully high (relatively speaking) fraction of his power, like planet level.

Ok. And?
The bolded actually proves my point, in all honesty.
What the hell are you even saying right now? Why are you trying to put words in my mouth by saying that I'm arguing for Thor to be less than solar system level in base. I'm arguing that Thor is solar system level in base, and that for most to even sustain combat with his "restrained" self for more than 5 minutes, they must be at least planet level, and that's assuming that Thor is holding back like a billionth of his real power, like you yourself said.

Then this is "have you cake and eat it" out of ignorance.

Your current argument is reliant on the notion Thor has to hold back to a closeby extent of your own choosing... except he doesn't, Thor is a superhuman being so he doesn't need to hold back in any feasible fraction. So for you to better understand my point, it is "Thor already holds back a million times at planetary, what is holding back a million more times to him"? And especially if random litter like Thing and Wrecker, who honestly don't even reach tier 7 often enough, get their unfair scaling to a character nulled, then that is what's fair representation for me.

And you better cut it out with this "back out of this argument" nonsense. I don't take orders from disingenuous clods such as you.

Can you get off my case? I'm this close to reporting you now, actually.

Any "strawmanning" done is likely accidental, and "opponents"? Surprisingly I don't care enough about your tirade to actively try being hostile towards you, I am responding to you as clearly as I can, I've kept my tone in check, and you're STILL acting like I insulted you somehow. At this point you're being more ignorant, than us being disingenuous.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Malomtek by your logic, any and all current Marvel 4-Bs will forever remain 4-B, as the 4-B tier is actually relevant to ther tier 5 you want! Which means any and all upgrades to Marvel's 4-B tier will be rejected on the basis of "tier 5 scales to tier 4, and thus this'll unfairly upgrade tier 5 which doesn't have feats on said level"!

 

[Eficiente]

Can you people make your comments one at a time, please? I starting feel like I'm being ganged up on.

Just so you know, I had things to say I preferred not to just to make things less messy, even if it's not necessary the best to do.

 

[AKM sama]

There's something about the way you guys treat evidence too. Toriyama's comments on "ki control" are extremely vague and don't explain any of the actual mechanics of ki control, yet you guys assume this means that DBZ characters control the AoE of their attacks.

I am just going to say that if you want to discuss the mechanics of ki control and how it works in the verse, you should create a separate thread about it. There are other evidences from characters themselves that support it, not just a Toriyama statement. Goku says that SSB provides a better ki control and you see him shoot a full power kamehameha that only creates a small crater. Characters like Vegeta have said that they keep themselves in check even while operating at full power so as to not blow up the Earth. Among other things.

But that's not related to a Marvel thread. If you have problems with it, I suggest you start a thread and discuss it there. Ki control is not a concept in Marvel so that's not to be brought up here. Whether Thor holds himself back or controls his AoE so as to not blow up the Earth is something that should be discussed without a concept from Dragon Ball.

 

[Malomtek]

@Malomtek by your logic, any and all current Marvel 4-Bs will forever remain 4-B, as the 4-B tier is actually relevant to ther tier 5 you want! Which means any and all upgrades to Marvel's 4-B tier will be rejected on the basis of "tier 5 scales to tier 4, and thus this'll unfairly upgrade tier 5 which doesn't have feats on said level"!

...What?

I don't even now you got that from anything I've said in this thread.

I am just going to say that if you want to discuss the mechanics of ki control and how it works in the verse, you should create a separate thread about it. There are other evidences from characters themselves that support it, not just a Toriyama statement. Goku says that SSB provides a better ki control and you see him shoot a full power kamehameha that only creates a small crater. Characters like Vegeta have said that they keep themselves in check even while operating at full power so as to not blow up the Earth. Among other things.

But that's not related to a Marvel thread. If you have problems with it, I suggest you start a thread and discuss it there. Ki control is not a concept in Marvel so that's not to be brought up here. Whether Thor holds himself back or controls his AoE so as to not blow up the Earth is something that should be discussed without a concept from Dragon Ball.

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that ki control means that DBZ characters can control their AoE, I'm disagreeing with the notion that this doesn't analogously apply to any other verse with energy projection/manipulation powers.

Just so you know, I had things to say I preferred not to just to make things less messy, even if it's not necessary the best to do.

I sense that those "things to say" were some sort of disparaging remarks made at my expense.

...do you not know Lightning =/= General Energy Manipulation?

Lightning is still a form of energy. It's not somehow unique in the way it can or cannot be controlled.

If you can manipulate your energy blasts to fit in specific borders and shapes, you can argue they can control the AoE of their attacks.

You mean like the explosions the energy blasts make? How does that work?

(Note for the others: this is a rhetorical question. I don't actually disagree with the notion that DBZ characters can control the AoE of their attacks.)

Don't plan to, not my verse.

Then what basis do you have for saying that DBZ characters are "massively wanked" in here?

None, it seems.

That Thor doesn't do, in order to not kill his opponents.

K.

You have to prove why what Thor doing is the former, not the latter.

You mean holding back his attacks' real power so that it's actually large island level or so? Which is what everyone else in this thread has been arguing do far?

Yeah, no thank you.

Yes.

Yeah, no.

Which is a non-existent hyperspecific mechanism.

Controlling the way Mjolnir exerts its power is something Thor does every day, so it's neither a "nonexistent" or "hyperspecific" mechanism.

Did you notice most those Cosmic Villains we tend to list 4-B? Hell most which don't can even get it back.

And that's fine by me. Hell, I believe there are some that should be rated higher than what we give them.

Then this is "have you cake and eat it" out of ignorance.

Your current argument is reliant on the notion Thor has to hold back to a closeby extent of your own choosing... except he doesn't, Thor is a superhuman being so he doesn't need to hold back in any feasible fraction. So for you to better understand my point, it is "Thor already holds back a million times at planetary, what is holding back a million more times to him"? And especially if random litter like Thing and Wrecker, who honestly don't even reach tier 7 often enough, get their unfair scaling to a character nulled, then that is what's fair representation for me.

Ok. But what if Thor is taking someone rather seriously, and fights them on a seemingly relatively even plane in a prolonged fight? Shouldn't that be enough to prove that, if Thor was holding back, then he was holding back by some "closeby extent"?

Also, if Thor is a "superhuman being and therefore doesn't have to hold back by any feasible amount, then why doesn't the same apply to the way he deals with the AoE of his attacks?

Dunno about the Wrecker, but I'm pretty sure the Thing has his own planet level feats.

Can you get off my case? I'm this close to reporting you now, actually.

Any "strawmanning" done is likely accidental, and "opponents"? Surprisingly I don't care enough about your tirade to actively try being hostile towards you, I am responding to you as clearly as I can, I've kept my tone in check, and you're STILL acting like I insulted you somehow. At this point you're being more ignorant, than us being disingenuous.

Can you get off my case, talking about "tirades" and calling me "ignorant" in a distinctly hostile manner?

@Antvasima is this kind of conduct from a mod acceptable to you?

 

[Eficiente]

I sense that those "things to say" were some sort of disparaging remarks made at my expense.

No, just how and why the DBZ example was wrong.

 

[Malomtek]

No, just how and why the DBZ example was wrong.

Oh.

I'm sorry I assumed the worst of you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Essentially, by your logic, all of Marvel is one tier, Street tier, thing tier, hell, even god tier. They are all the same tier, and as such we have to take all of the tier 9, 8, and 7 feats into account. As such the bare minimum 5-B attack Potency of Mjölnir can be labeled as an outlier

 

[Malomtek]

Essentially, by your logic, all of Marvel is one tier, Street tier, thing tier, hell, even god tier. They are all the same tier, and as such we have to take all of the tier 9, 8, and 7 feats into account. As such the bare minimum 5-B attack Potency of Mjölnir can be labeled as an outlier

I never even implied such a thing, let alone argued it.

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I never even implied such a thing, let alone argued it.

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

You see, Marvel has a nasty issue of most everyone has fought everyone at some point, if Mjölnir is 5-B minimum, no matter how serious Thor is, that means literally anyone who as tanked hits from it would have 5-B durability.

 

[Malomtek]

You see, Marvel has a nasty issue of most everyone has fought everyone at some point, if Mjölnir is 5-B minimum, no matter how serious Thor is, that means literally anyone who as tanked hits from it would have 5-B durability.

I never said that anyone who fights Thor has 5-B durability, I say that anyone Thor fights even semi-seriously and doesn't quickly defeat or immediately one-shot should be at least 5-B in durability.

There are indeed people in Marvel who shouldn't scale to Thor just because he took a small jab at them with Mjolnir. And Thor can indeed control the attack power of Mjolnir swings, it's just that the "general"/"default" attack power of Mjolnir is around planet level, even though it can be lowered or raised at will by Thor Odinson.

 

[Confluctor]

Could you some scans of him controlling the power of the hammer? Even if it's common sense or whatever, just compile an Imgur blog explaining the difference. It will make everyone's job easier and we don't have to go in circles.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You said that, due to Thor having a warrior's heart, will always go for the kill in-character. Which means he is always using the 5-B bare minimum AP of Mjölnir because he always goes for the kill in-character, which means that Spider-Man would be 5-B in base because he trades blows with those that can harm him physically. Your argument causes massive scaling problems in a verse that already has massive scaling problems.

And you STILL haven't explained why Thor doesn't planet bust with every swing that hits the ground, he doesn't have REALLY high-end energy manipulation, which is the only explanation besides "Thor holds back and doesn't go for the kill unless needed"

Also the whole Warriors' heart thing is real cute when I have an entire damn verse of cats with warriors' hearts who literally don't go for the kill in-character unless needed.

 

[AKM sama]

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that ki control means that DBZ characters can control their AoE, I'm disagreeing with the notion that this doesn't analogously apply to any other verse with energy projection/manipulation powers.

Why would a concept that is explained in DB specifically apply to other verses? Other verses need to explain their own mechanics.

 

[The_Impress]

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that ki control means that DBZ characters can control their AoE, I'm disagreeing with the notion that this doesn't analogously apply to any other verse with energy projection/manipulation powers.

Why would it? Dragon Ball has mechanics for Ki Control, other verses don't. End of story.

In general your claims right now are of "Kinetic Energy Control", which, isn't relevant whatsoever to Energy Projection, and requires an extremely potent version of Energy Manipulation.

Lightning is still a form of energy. It's not somehow unique in the way it can or cannot be controlled.

It is, verse mechanics alone have characters like Electro who are ONLY able to control electrical energy, and even if I were to assume that somehow this logic is correct, the level of proficiency described I don't think most people in the ENTIRE VERSE have, save for very few examples.

You mean like the explosions the energy blasts make?

No, the shapes they make, they can control that.

...I don't remember a single instance of a ki blast by itself creating an explosion, not that it matters, stuff like Hellzone Grenades and Expanding Ki Blast implies very bluntly that DBZ characters can in fact manipulate the AoE of their attacks even after firing the *******. Thor has not one

Then what basis do you have for saying that DBZ characters are "massively wanked" in here?

None, it seems.

Alotta characters are randomly scaled to folks who very bluntly shouldn't scale, mostly mooks.

You mean holding back his attacks' real power so that it's actually large island level or so? Which is what everyone else in this thread has been arguing do far?

Yeah, no thank you.

Whoops, meant latter and not the former

Controlling the way Mjolnir exerts its power is something Thor does every day, so it's neither a "nonexistent" or "hyperspecific" mechanism.

You haven't provided a single instance of Thor having this mechanic. Show a SINGULAR SCAN.

And that's fine by me. Hell, I believe there are some that should be rated higher than what we give them.

...great, don't bring up irrelevant points next time.

Ok. But what if Thor is taking someone rather seriously, and fights them on a seemingly relatively even plane in a prolonged fight? Shouldn't that be enough to prove that, if Thor was holding back, then he was holding back by some "closeby extent"?

No, Thor has claimed he will rather die to an opponent than to use his full power on them. Also, Thor has just said the hold-back claims to opponents who had almost killed him, in prior instances.

In general, what you're suggesting here, is headcanon. There is no proof whatsoever that Thor held back "by some closeby extent", that'll just be defeating the point.

Also, if Thor is a "superhuman being and therefore doesn't have to hold back by any feasible amount, then why doesn't the same apply to the way he deals with the AoE of his attacks?

...because you haven't given a singular proof of the AoE shit.

Dunno about the Wrecker, but I'm pretty sure the Thing has his own planet level feats.

Please provide them.

Can you get off my case, talking about "tirades" and calling me "ignorant" in a distinctly hostile manner?

I don't take orders from disingenuous clods such as you.

Disingenuous idiots deliberately misrepresenting my arguments then saying I should step out of the discussion piss me the hell off to no end.

Hypocrisy is fun.

@Antvasima is this kind of conduct from a mod acceptable to you?

Ant, can you instead explain whether this kind of conduct from any user, is acceptable to you?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Impress has managed to control her temper and mostly behave properly in this thread despite serious provocations from Malomtek. We might have to thread ban him to continue with a proper constructive flow in this discussion.

 

[Malomtek]

You said that, due to Thor having a warrior's heart, will always go for the kill in-character.

I didn't say that. I said that

"Because Thor is a warrior at heart, and because of this, even if he were to hold back enough to not kill somebody, he wouldn't hold back enough to avoid knocking them out."

Stop strawmanning me.

And you STILL haven't explained why Thor doesn't planet bust with every swing that hits the ground

Because like most other fictional characters, Thor can control the AoE of his attacks, as well as his general attack power.

Why would a concept that is explained in DB specifically apply to other verses? Other verses need to explain their own mechanics.

Why would the notion of controlling the effects of one's own energy ("energy control") somehow be unique to DB?

I think that Impress has managed to control her temper and mostly behave properly in this thread despite serious provocations from Malomtek. We might have to thread ban him to continue with a proper constructive flow in this discussion.

Ok, if I'm going to be banned for "disrupting" some "proper constructive flow" just by arguing for my own side against multiple others being just as "disrupting", then I'm just going to leave this thread.

But I'm not conceding the argument though.

 

[Confluctor]

Again, you have to prove it via scans. No one is gonna disagree once you prove it via scans/sources.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because Dragon Ball has an entire God damn verse mechanic dedicated to controlling AOE.

Now then prove that Thor can magically SPECIFICALLY control his AOE with scans. No lower feats as any of those can be dismissed as "Thor holds back".

 

[The_Impress]

If you're gonna make excuses and run away from the thread that isn't exactly our fault, you literally are the person repeatedly calling us "disingenuous idiots/clods"... like are you just straight up not seeing that?

I can understand a bad day but you even doubled down on it, so we're way past that now.

 

[Ocean7447]

Most people hold the viewpoint that Thor can control his AOE because whenever Thor doesn't hold back, there's no collateral damage to be seen.

And there are all those times where Thor is completely brainwashed or bloodlusted against an opponent, and there was no collateral damage to be seen. Or he duked it out against people like Thanos and Mangog, and still no collateral damage.

Here's another scan that fits nicely.

 

[The_Impress]

Most people hold the viewpoint that Thor can control his AOE because whenever Thor doesn't hold back, there's no collateral damage to be seen.

...he cratered Hulk into adamantium, what else collateral do you need exactly?

And there are all those times where Thor is completely brainwashed or bloodlusted against an opponent, and there was no collateral damage to be seen. Or he duked it out against people like Thanos and Mangog, and still no collateral damage.

Can you actually show me these, I wanna see the trajectory of these blows.

Here's another scan that fits nicely.

...yes it doesn't do shit because that's how that power works... all his might gets him to transform back by the energy used. Like, using this as any valid example is REALLY silly

 

[Antvasima]

If you're gonna make excuses and run away from the thread that isn't exactly our fault, you literally are the person repeatedly calling us "disingenuous idiots/clods"... like are you just straight up not seeing that?

I can understand a bad day but you even doubled down on it, so we're way past that now.

Given that I asked Malomtek to stop being a problem, he obviously isn't running away or anything like that, and it is important that we do not provoke him or otherwise behave in an inappropriate manner.

Anyway, let's return to the main topic here.

 

[Confluctor]

I have a proposal; why don't we get rid of the low tier for certain characters who have in-verse explaination. For example, the Sentry. Some of his feats can be as low as tier 9 (his humans forms gets complicated to explain sometimes). So, just stick to Varies up to 4-B.


The only reason I see the 6-C rating is because of Blue Marvel scaling, but he can be scales off Ares and Ms Marvel and Hyperion and Namor, who weren't affected heavily by the anti matter like the Sentry was. He is pretty much the only one who scales off him. (King Hyperion scales of Blue Marvel).

So, characters with varied profiles don't really need the 6-C statistics. Because you might want to add a few more statistics then.


And also, the 6-c is wrong cause at his weakest he was busting a moon


This would affect a few people like Mephisto and Galactus. We are only giving them those weak keys because of some scaling. But what we could do is create notes to explain some of the scaling. (Galactus's tiering is a mess right now).



Tho I can see this being rejected immediately because of the Hulk case. Hulk is an interesting case, others are different. But he needs a few more statistics at the very least.

 

[Antvasima]

What do other people here think of Confluctor's suggestion of giving "Variable, up to 4-B" tiers to the herald level characters instead, possibly combined with footnotes about that they usually hold back their attack power and speed tremendously?

Also, Lifebringer Galactus should definitely lose his Low 1-A ranking. He was not portrayed as anywhere near that scale, and it completely messes up the scaling structure. He even had trouble fighting several Dark/Death Celestials.

 

[Confluctor]

After Impress' revision go through, I am going to fix Galactus' scaling. I don't necessarily disagree with his Low 1-A (at least conceptually) but don't really agree with it currently either.

 

[Antvasima]

It is ridiculously higher than anything he ever displayed in practice. Al Ewing has made very clear in his stories that he does not care at all about any kind of coherence in terms of power scaling. In the same storyline that Galactus beat Chaos and Order, the Black Panther did the same thing, and as Ewing and Mark Waid stated in the Nyx Avengers storyline, in Marvel, the house (superhero protagonists and their allies) always wins, regardless how idiotic it is in terms of logic. Marvel is inherently very dadaistic in that respect.

Also, Lifebringer Galactus likely does not have enough appearances to be featured in the wiki to start with.

 

[Confluctor]

I believe it does reach the minimum quota. But I do agree with your other points. I am just also not a fan of all the retcons he is making.

But eh, can't do much about it.


Anyway, we should probably focus on the smaller problem at hand ATM.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[The_Impress]

Given that I asked Malomtek to stop being a problem, he obviously isn't running away or anything like that, and it is important that we do not provoke him or otherwise behave in an inappropriate manner.

Anyway, let's return to the main topic here.

...You asked him to behave, I don't think either of us made a claim "don't debate". I'm not behaving inappropriately, Malmotek is claiming they disagree vehemently then they should remain in the debate, and instead work on their tone.

Anywho is Maverick's standard applied?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I technically did tell him that he had to shape up or leave and to stop derailing.

We have not applied any new standards yet as far as I am aware.

 

[Confluctor]

Not yet

^ about the standard

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if we can continue discussing here to try to reach constructive conclusions.