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Marvel Cosmology Downgrade

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LuciferX said:
My problem is, it was stated several times abstracts are higher dimensional and reside in 1-B planes. scaling them to High 1-B and Tier A rankings seems inaccurate to me tbh. I'm aware that a character can get to A tier without having an infinite layered cosmology, but at least this should downgrade some characters for not having inf layered cosmology.

Even Beyonders/Ivory Kings described as Over Dimensional Beings (more than 3D) means sort of higher dimensional entities like other abstracts.
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Can u please make a list of the ''several times abstracts reside in 1-B planes'' please?
 
LuciferX said:
Well. Below scan says negative zone shares same three dimension as man's universe/multiverse.
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That comic is absolutely ancient. New information (The scan I've shown is from 2014) naturally overrides old, especially in a medium like comicbooks. Furthermore, this doesn't prove an issue if the Negative Zone is treated as separate from the nexus of realities that is accessible from its core, by extension meaning that Doctor Doom's statement in FF #14 was referring to the latter.

Either option you take, the statements regarding the Crossroads are left largely untouched. Even if I was to humor what you say, why wouldn't they? Reed reaches the place after he stumbles through a 4-dimensional realm and in a later venture to it mentions that it contains 6-D spaces, so implying it is 3-D is out of the question as is.

LuciferX said:
Contextless? It had some context that's why it got rejected in past unless DC is 1-B so far.

but there is no further context about the Marvel scan. why even the character mention it take as a reliable source? It's not a explicit mention of higher dimensions by any means.
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First paragraph is missing the point by a mile. My point is that using a scan from another verse entirely to say that Marvel is commiting a gross misuse of fairly basic terms is absurd, and moreso when you don't even explain how this scan exemplifies such a thing.

Second paragraph falls under something I've already addressed: If the narrative does not treat the statement as having ambiguous veracity, then there is no reason to disregard. Now: Does the narrative treat it as having ambiguous veracity?

Deagonx said:
I think the fact that his mention of controlling dimensionality is prefaced by a considerable amount of text talking about alternate universes should dictate that this scan is definitely about universes, not spatial dimensions.
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Not exactly. Some context from this comic and the one adjacent to it should help here: Basically, the scan above is Doom discussing the prospect of obtaining master control over all space and time, and, more specifically, the two main ingredients he needs to absorb into himself as to accomplish this: Control of the Negative Zone, and, as he mentions, Kang's mastery over time, so, "controlling dimensionality itself" in context is referring to full dominion over space (Obviously related to geometrical dimensions) that he'd obtain by controlling the Negative Zone. Here's an album of relevant scans that I compiled for clarity's sake.

This is, of course, not mutually exclusive with the mention of alternate universes. Dimensionality is a property of the universe, and that the Crossroads of Infinity are already demonstrated to have close ties to dimensionality (As shown by the Fantastic Four Unlimited scans) should seal the deal for that here.

Deagonx said:
I don't necessarily disagree with this argument, but I can see both sides. You're right in that the comic explicitly portrays Reed as shifting through various levels of spatial dimensionality as he goes through different realms, indicating that he is taking on the dimesnionality of the various realms he's in.

I am not sure it is so concrete, however, that him reaching the crossroads and saying "limitless dimensions" should also refer to dimensionality. I think the evidence is not bad, but strongly obfuscated by the fact that he is literally in one of the only places in Marvel where describing himself as being "in a world of limitless dimensions" could refer to either spatial dimensions or universes.

Further by the fact that the next two descriptions he gives the realm refer to it's access to other realms, not spatial dimensionality. "I'm drifting into a world of limitless dimensions! It's the Crossroads of Infinity -- the junction to everywhere!"

I think it could go either way, but it strikes me as an odd coincidence that he would be describing both at the same time.
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I don't find that an odd coincidence at all. As said prior, dimensionality is obviously a property of universes, and Reed in this case is in the realm where all such universes meet, so it referring to both is all but natural, and supported both by Doom directly likening dominion of the Negative Zone to dominion over space (Which, again, obviously ties into dimensions in the geometrical sense and informs us that "controlling dimensionality" was, in fact, referring to controlling dimensionality) and by Reed using "juncture of many dimensions" in a geometrical context the next time he goes into the Crossroads (For the matter, here's direct confirmation that the juncture in the Annihilation Area was the Crossroads of Infinity, from 2013). The fact that he mentions "limitless dimensions" right after he talks about being in a 4-dimensional realm also, in my opinion, provides some contextual backing to my stance, especially in conjunction with the other scans.

Deagonx said:
It was with regard to the Cantor "transfinite sets" scan. Essentially it was said that if taken at face value, setting aside the poor explanation of greater infinities, saying that Marvel has Aleph Infinity universes or levels of power would render it 1-A+. This was mentioned in defense of it's dismissal for the aforementioned bad mathematics. I am defending the scan, not because I think it should be used for 1-A+, but because I do not think the poor explanation of how greater infinities work should by itself be used as a reason to dismiss the scan entirely. Most things that we evaluate at that level do not reference the advanced math involved at all, and to me it seems backwards to 'punish' the author for at least trying to communicate the concept of greater infinities. We are all aware that adding two countable infinities doesn't create an uncountable one, but how many old-school comic authors know that? I just don't agree with rewarding silence. The intention was clear, and they explicitly reference an infinite series of greater infinities. That being the case, we should use a different reason to dismiss it than "the author didn't reference bijection"
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I can get behind that sentiment, yeah. In that case, the statements as Kubik applies it to himself, Kosmos and the Celestials would be disregarded, but not the concept of aleph numbers in Marvel as a whole, especially given that later comics reference the different levels of infinity in set theory without delving into enough detail as to accidentally explain them wrong.
 
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The two terms being used interchangeably in that scan doesn't particularly matter, given that the focus here is in the scan from Fantastic Four #51 (The first appearance of the Crossroads of Infinity) and the pieces of evidence given to back the claim that it is, in fact, referring to spatial dimensions. That imgur in specific was posted to clarify that this was depicting the Crossroads of Infinity, and only that.
 
And because I forgor to quote this in the first post:

Ovy7 said:
At the same time I don't understand where the infinite directions = infinite dimensions idea comes from, and not "infinite directions" just simply meaning that the reality is infinitely big (an infinite 3D space would have infinite directions). Is there proof that by "directions" the character or author actually means higher dimensions? For this reason stuff like "infinite directions" or "infinite coordonates" being used to prove High 1B had always irked me the wrong way.
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Fair point, tbh. Direction can very well just mean "destination" and similar things, and not refer to actual spatial directions at all, so the scan is indeed a bit vague on that front. Although I still maintain it can be used as supporting evidence, even if not the main body of an argument by many means.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And because I forgor to quote this in the first post:


Fair point, tbh. Direction can very well just mean "destination" and similar things, and not refer to actual spatial directions at all, so the scan is indeed a bit vague on that front. Although I still maintain it can be used as supporting evidence, even if not the main body of an argument by many means.
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Supporting evidence is fine even if it seems kinda vague.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Not exactly. Some context from this comic and the one adjacent to it should help here: Basically, the scan above is Doom discussing the prospect of obtaining master control over all space and time, and, more specifically, the two main ingredients he needs to absorb into himself as to accomplish this: Control of the Negative Zone, and, as he mentions, Kang's mastery over time, so, "controlling dimensionality itself" in context is referring to full dominion over space (Obviously related to geometrical dimensions) that he'd obtain by controlling the Negative Zone. Here's an album of relevant scans that I compiled for clarity's sake.

This is, of course, not mutually exclusive with the mention of alternate universes. Dimensionality is a property of the universe, and that the Crossroads of Infinity are already demonstrated to have close ties to dimensionality (As shown by the Fantastic Four Unlimited scans) should seal the deal for that here.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but how would you characterize the concept of "controlling dimensionality" in this context?

Ultima_Reality said:
I don't find that an odd coincidence at all. As said prior, dimensionality is obviously a property of universes, and Reed in this case is in the realm where all such universes meet, so it referring to both is all but natural, and supported both by Doom directly likening dominion of the Negative Zone to dominion over space (Which, again, obviously ties into dimensions in the geometrical sense and informs us that "controlling dimensionality" was, in fact, referring to controlling dimensionality) and by Reed using "juncture of many dimensions" in a geometrical context the next time he goes into the Crossroads (For the matter, here's direct confirmation that the juncture in the Annihilation Area was the Crossroads of Infinity, from 2013). The fact that he mentions "limitless dimensions" right after he talks about being in a 4-dimensional realm also, in my opinion, provides some contextual backing to my stance, especially in conjunction with the other scans.
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I think these scans are very important in confirming that the crossroads are in the negative zone, but what I am reading still suggests to me that the limitless dimensions are realms: "A blackhole that contains a gateway to other dimension."

In your opinion, do you think the crossroads represent a space/realm of infinite spatial dimensions?

Ultima_Reality said:
I can get behind that sentiment, yeah. In that case, the statements as Kubik applies it to himself, Kosmos and the Celestials would be disregarded, but not the concept of aleph numbers in Marvel as a whole, especially given that later comics reference the different levels of infinity in set theory without delving into enough detail as to accidentally explain them wrong.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Vasco said:
He said his god but isn't TOAA the writer/editor/reader?
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At the same time that he is all gods. Even in Ewing's cosmology where The One Above All is this writer/editor/reader, Ewing just made a retrieval from Mark Waid's Fantastic Four chapter where Jack Kirby appears as the Christian God to Reed Richards, and that TOAA's heaven is of any kind of religion because he is a gestalt entity, which will always present itself as the creator of beings, regardless of their religion.
 
Gasper said:
Ah ok. So infinite hierarchy of dreams there should be another evidence for High 1-B marvel. And why isn't devine creator another key for toaa?
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I don't know, but this post will still have more compiled answers and cosmologies, i guess. Then we can take a look at not only Divine Creator as a key to TOAA, but also Fulcrum, which is officially dubbed for The One Above All.
 
Alonik said:
I don't know, but this post will still have more compiled answers and cosmologies, i guess. Then we can take a look at not only Divine Creator as a key to TOAA, but also Fulcrum, which is officially dubbed for The One Above All.
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Well, given that The Fulcrum was also based on Jack Kirby, and all cosmic entities supposedly serve it, if I remember correctly, I think that they can probably be interpreted to likely be the same character, but it was never outright confirmed.

Anyway, which of the scans that we currently use in our wiki to justify the highest Marvel Comics statistics can still be used, and which have been debunked?

Also, can somebody find links to the more recent scans about the Negative Zone in itself being three-dimensional that I posted in the previous thread about this topic (regardless that it intersects witho an infinite-dimensional nexus) is that unnecessary?

And in addition, if we go by that the most recent prominent portrayals of the Marvel multiverse revise the older ones, some years ago said multiverse was still destroyed simply by a finite number of universes colliding with each other, and after that, the number of higher realities that Al Ewing has introduced would likely still not have the structure xceed tier High 1-C, so splitting the cosmology to pre-Abraxas/post-Abraxas, or pre-Joe Quesada/post Joe Quesada, or pre-2001/post-2001 may be a good idea.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, given that The Fulcrum was also based on Jack Kirby, and all cosmic entities supposedly serve it, if I remember correctly, I think that they can probably be interpreted to likely be the same character, but it was never outright confirmed.
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As a matter of fact, the Marvel Book explicit claims that the Fulcrum and One Above All are two names dubbed by the supreme deity of the Marvel Universe.
 
Hmm. Was that the rather goofy "fact" book written by Tom DeFalco mentioned above, or something more reliable?
 
Mind you, Tom DeFalco is still a genuinely really nice guy as far as I am aware. I just don't find a scan with snippets of information that roughly said: "Aaaaarrrrg! Odin (a character that I love and wrote for a long time) is more powerful than Mikaboshi." reliable.

Mind you again, Tom DeFalco wrote the most likeable versions of Thor and Odin. I have nothing whatsoever against him as a person.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
First paragraph is missing the point by a mile. My point is that using a scan from another verse entirely to say that Marvel is commiting a gross misuse of fairly basic terms is absurd, and moreso when you don't even explain how this scan exemplifies such a thing.

Second paragraph falls under something I've already addressed: If the narrative does not treat the statement as having ambiguous veracity, then there is no reason to disregard. Now: Does the narrative treat it as having ambiguous veracity?
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so, It's a vague scan since it could mean both and there is no further context about it. My point is to show that term could refer to alt realities, DC scan just used as an example because both used the same term in similar way.
I don't find that an odd coincidence at all. As said prior, dimensionality is obviously a property of universes, and Reed in this case is in the realm where all such universes meet, so it referring to both is all but natural, and supported both by Doom directly likening dominion of the Negative Zone to dominion over space (Which, again, obviously ties into dimensions in the geometrical sense and informs us that "controlling dimensionality" was, in fact, referring to controlling dimensionality) and by Reed using "juncture of many dimensions" in a geometrical context the next time he goes into the Crossroads (For the matter,from 2013). The fact that he mentions "limitless dimensions" right after he talks about being in a 4-dimensional realm also, in my opinion, provides some contextual backing to my stance, especially in conjunction with the other scans.
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Your own scan implies they are not geometrical ones. "a gateway to other dimensions" mean other realms.
3QvLRWV_d.webp


Doom said the person who control zone would have access to every world imaginable, mean it connects alt realms/dimensions not spatial sense.
fm1GgBr_d.webp


I still think it mean alt realms instead infinite spatial dimensions, you could argue it meant in a spatial sense cuz he went there from a 4th dimensional space, but Marvel use this "dimension" term not the way we think of.

What about High 1-B reed richards, he definitely perceived infinite dimensions if not he can't tell it's a world of infinite dimensions.
 
I think the negative zone is definitely the subject of debate.

However, the scan explicitly referred to as infinite dimensional space seems indisputable.(A scan called an N-dimensional space should be considered an N-dimensional space, not a collection of universes, unless there is an additional context.)

Anyway, as Ant said, cosmology should be classified according to the times.

Marvel has enough potential to surpass the High 1-B, but I don't think it's recent.
 
Panpanpanjeidj said:
However, the scan explicitly referred to as infinite dimensional space seems indisputable.(A scan called an N-dimensional space should be considered an N-dimensional space, not a collection of universes, unless there is an additional context.)
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My point is, "N dimensional space" term could use to refer both spatial and alternate dimension and used DC scan to prove that it can be used to refer alt dimensions. there is no additional context about that statement, so it's another vague mention of infinite dimensions because it could mean both. if it said as "infinite higher dimensions" or at least a comparsion between three dimensions, then it can be consider as refering to higher dimensions.
Panpanpanjeidj said:
Marvel has enough potential to surpass the High 1-B, but I don't think it's recent.
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Ofc, most high tier scalings are based on old marvel issues. in my opinion, only beyonder in secret wars II can reach High 1-B though if we consider secret wars 2 as a seperate canon from main continuity.
 
Antvasima said:
@Deagonx @Ultima_Reality

What do you think about LuciferX's and Panpanpanjeidj's latest comments above?
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I am still personally leaning towards "other realms" as the likely interpretation of the main scans. I don't feel that the evidence is strong enough to justify an infinite dimensional Marvel, but I can see why someone else would see it that way.
 
Well, I would still greatly appreciate if somebody is willing to revise our cosmic Marvel Comics pages, by checking for debunked scans that we need to remove and replace with valid scaling sources, and also greatly appreciate help with separating Marvel's cosmology into the classic one and the current one mainly crafted by Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing.

Some of our members actually need to properly organise the work though.
 
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