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Marvel Cosmology Downgrade
- Thread starter LuciferX
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Should we take Cosmos and Cubic stories seriously?
In Fantastic Four Annual #23, even the realm of Beyonders, transcending multiverse, was referred to in 4D and described as a limitation of scale.
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In Fantastic Four Annual #26 he refers to the level of infinity
To be honest, it seems inconsistent.
In Fantastic Four Annual #23, even the realm of Beyonders, transcending multiverse, was referred to in 4D and described as a limitation of scale.
In Fantastic Four Annual #26 he refers to the level of infinity
To be honest, it seems inconsistent.
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Hasty12345
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"half of infinity is still infinity" yet even numbers + odd numbers = greater levels of infinity.
seems like there's no internal consistency with Marvels explanations of this kind of stuff whatsoever
seems like there's no internal consistency with Marvels explanations of this kind of stuff whatsoever
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2 times infinity at that lol.
I can see alot of verses arguements based of this precedent if accepted.
Hasty12345
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I just don't know how we're expected to take the whole cantor thing seriously when it's verbatim contradicted here, one guy is telling us 2 times infinity is a greater infinity and another is telling us half of infinity is still infinity.
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I am being told writers don't know maths, this and that. I mean... If they don't then they didn't used it correctly, if they didn't interpreted what cantor's said correctly. Saying that they used it correctly is something only supporters of the scan can explain. Well it doesn't hurt, as long as verses with 2 times infinity scales, writers of those fiction also don't know proper maths.
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Yes, the Kosmos and Kubik stories were largely rather dumb in general in my view.Should we take Cosmos and Cubic stories seriously?
In Fantastic Four Annual #23, even the realm of Beyonders, transcending multiverse, was referred to in 4D and described as a limitation of scale.
In Fantastic Four Annual #26 he refers to the level of infinity
To be honest, it seems inconsistent.
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Well, because from what I recall, the George Cantor scans about the Marvel multiverse seemed to state that there are infinite degrees of infinity at least, but others have said that they also mentioned infinite degrees of alephs in a mathematically inaccurate manner, so that part seems unreliable.
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It is due to many different writers having many different ideas and degrees of real world knowledge about these issues.
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I saw 2 scans explaining the cantor's stuff, one by doctor strange and other by kubik and both of them has used the exact explaination for infinities which is wrong. So it's seems consistently same and wrong.
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Okay. It may have been enforced by Tom DeFalco then, as he was editor-in-chief at the time if I remember the title name correctly. He was very focused on depowering The Beyonder and empowering Marvel's other cosmic entities, and wrote the initial Kosmos and Kubik story.
He seems to be a genuinely nice person though, and had a great grasp of Thor as a character, for example.
He seems to be a genuinely nice person though, and had a great grasp of Thor as a character, for example.
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Hi all. Hope you don't mind my intrusion.
Fantastic Four Unlimited (Issue 3) then features the same concept and mentions the existence of an "initial" Distortion Area, which fits with Reed floating through two separate regions (The 4-D reality and then the Crossroads at the edge of Subspace) on his way to the Negative Zone. Later on in the same issue, the FF then enter the Annihilation Vortex at the core of the Negative Zone and pass through "a juncture of many dimensions" where their dimensionality is constantly shifted. Notably they switch from 3-D to 2-D, and Reed comments that at any moment they could suddenly become 6-D.
For the matter, the context of this scene is that they are entering the Vortex to access another cosmos, so it's evident that the juncture of many dimensional spaces was itself the Distortion Area as well, since that's explicitly the barrier between realities. Fantastic Four Full Circle, conveniently for us, also has Reed describe the Crossroads of Infinity as being the Distortion Area, so, yeah. Reed jumping from 4-D space to infinite-dimensional space isn't a contradiction, it's just that he's in a junction of a bunch of different realities that, naturally, takes from the dimensionality of each of those realities.
And this also leads to another point: Namely that "world of limitless dimensions" referring solely to alternate realities doesn't make much sense because the Crossroads of Infinity are a specific realm, just one that's naturally defined by the fact it borders and interlinks all realities.
Anyway: No it couldn't. That's not the definition of "n-dimensional space" to begin with, so you're basically claiming "Well the comic may be using this term incorrectly to mean something wholly unrelated" without a lick of evidence to back up this claim. And posting a contextless scan from Wildstorm of all things doesn't do anything to further your point. Correct me if I'm wrong but I had the distinct impression this thread was about Marvel.
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Regardless, one more scan supporting High 1-B for Marvel is this one, which is fairly direct, I would think. Furthermore I will add that I don't really agree with using the scans about transfinite sets as a feat for anything at all: Obviously, we wouldn't take it as an indicator of this being how higher infinities work in Marvel, otherwise the verse doesn't even breach Tier 2, but the fact of the matter is that the descriptions, as applied to the structures present in the cosmology, are incorrectly made and therefore we shouldn't apply the correct definitions to these same structures. Better to write off nonsense statements as just nonsense, imo.
Why exactly is it a contradiction? He's passing between different physical states in that scene, evidenced by how he doesn't talk about being in a world of limitless dimensions until he reaches "the edge of subspace." Some background information to contextualize the scene: An important concept to make note of, and which seems to show up often in stories featuring the Negative Zone, is the Distortion Area, which is this ******-up space that you pass through while traveling between realities, and the 4-dimensional realm that Reed passed through before tumbling into the Crossroads of Infinity and then into Negative Zone was exactly that.
Fantastic Four Unlimited (Issue 3) then features the same concept and mentions the existence of an "initial" Distortion Area, which fits with Reed floating through two separate regions (The 4-D reality and then the Crossroads at the edge of Subspace) on his way to the Negative Zone. Later on in the same issue, the FF then enter the Annihilation Vortex at the core of the Negative Zone and pass through "a juncture of many dimensions" where their dimensionality is constantly shifted. Notably they switch from 3-D to 2-D, and Reed comments that at any moment they could suddenly become 6-D.
For the matter, the context of this scene is that they are entering the Vortex to access another cosmos, so it's evident that the juncture of many dimensional spaces was itself the Distortion Area as well, since that's explicitly the barrier between realities. Fantastic Four Full Circle, conveniently for us, also has Reed describe the Crossroads of Infinity as being the Distortion Area, so, yeah. Reed jumping from 4-D space to infinite-dimensional space isn't a contradiction, it's just that he's in a junction of a bunch of different realities that, naturally, takes from the dimensionality of each of those realities.
And this also leads to another point: Namely that "world of limitless dimensions" referring solely to alternate realities doesn't make much sense because the Crossroads of Infinity are a specific realm, just one that's naturally defined by the fact it borders and interlinks all realities.
Doctor Doom says that controlling the Negative Zone is the same as controlling dimensionality itself, at the same time as he calls back to its connection to the Crossroads by describing it as a "bridge to everywhere." That much should already tell you that geometrical dimensions are a pertinent theme to the Negative Zone.
It's not "vague," no. It's fairly explicit in what it's talking about. Your issue seems to be more about whether or not it comes from a reliable source, which is not the same, and sounds like a bizarre line of logic to make unless the narrative frames it as a statement of ambiguous or negative veracity.
Bleeeh. The fact someone called this post "expertly handled" boggles the mind.
Anyway: No it couldn't. That's not the definition of "n-dimensional space" to begin with, so you're basically claiming "Well the comic may be using this term incorrectly to mean something wholly unrelated" without a lick of evidence to back up this claim. And posting a contextless scan from Wildstorm of all things doesn't do anything to further your point. Correct me if I'm wrong but I had the distinct impression this thread was about Marvel.
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Regardless, one more scan supporting High 1-B for Marvel is this one, which is fairly direct, I would think. Furthermore I will add that I don't really agree with using the scans about transfinite sets as a feat for anything at all: Obviously, we wouldn't take it as an indicator of this being how higher infinities work in Marvel, otherwise the verse doesn't even breach Tier 2, but the fact of the matter is that the descriptions, as applied to the structures present in the cosmology, are incorrectly made and therefore we shouldn't apply the correct definitions to these same structures. Better to write off nonsense statements as just nonsense, imo.
I've just recently landed on this thread, so, not up to speed with everything as of yet, but, who exactly proposed 1-A+ Marvel, and why?
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If you take Marvel's transfinite seriously (bigger infinity is twice as much as lower infinity), it would be 1-A+.
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He just said we wouldn't and no, it'll not regardless.
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I was the one who mentioned 1-A+ in the thread, because people where using real life logic to marvel alephs and i was just using that as an example for how ridiculous that would be.
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Somebody mentioned that a hierarchy of alephs may or may not have been mentioned once, but it would need to be consistent with other portrayals of the cosmology, given the 83 years of history and 100,000+ stories for the setting.
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Anyway, we also need your input help in our DC Comics cosmology splitting thread, Ultima. We went out of our way with revising our work to accommodate your complaints, so we would greatly appreciate if you accept our new suggestion so we can finally proceed.
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Yeah, on my way there.
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The infinite direction is controversial, but the scene explicitly referred to as Infinite dimensional space seems to be non-controversial.
As Ultima said, Marvel has infinite dimensions.
But I don't know if the difference between high and low dimensions is infinite.
As Ultima said, Marvel has infinite dimensions.
But I don't know if the difference between high and low dimensions is infinite.
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Would it be possible to have the sources listed for the scans? Perhaps there is a commonality between the writers somewhere?
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Fron my stay on this wiki especially dealing teir 1, no one cares about intentions if it dosen't meet the wiki criteria or wrongly used e.g a being stated to be 5-D or from 5th dimension and can't be perceived by lower beings won't be given Low 1-C without further proof of qualitative superiority( we've seen many verses like this on the wiki) even if stated to be from a higher dimension talk more of this.Overall I agree but I must object to one thing. Although Dr. Strange's explanation for transfinite numbers is not mathematically accurate, the intent is clear. I don't think that should be overlooked simply because he did not accurately describe bijection. The concept of "greater infinities" is difficult even for mathematicians to understand.
The scan linked by Comicgyal IMO is pretty explicit in establishing "infinite levels of greater infinities"
There needs to be good evidence that it means spatial dimensions.
This is even worse,the intent and how it was explained is wrong and shouldn't be used.
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Ben 10 is basically a well known victim
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Wasn't it stated to be infinite-dimensional in secret wars II #1?
I think @Ovy7 had a say on it and disagreed.
@Ultima_Reality if Ultima accepts Negative Zone as High-1B what about the other higher dimensional spaces?
One of the verses I had in mindBen 10 is basically a well known victim
.Yeah just saw it, Thanks.
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Since someone with knowledge decided to show an in-depth analysis in this thread, I will do the same, but first of all I agree with @Ultima_Reality and the infinite-dimensional tiering for the Multiverse, and this here is just more evidence that shows that this is recurring even with other writers;
Ditortion Area
The distortion area just as he said is an area that all beings are dimensionally readjusted to access higher dimensions.
Subspace/hyperspace:
- Quasar explaining that the difference between higher dimensions of the subspace (hyperspace) is the same as seeing the infinite of a lower dimension as 0. - Quasar Vol 1 #3 - November 01, 1989 (Mark Gruenwald)
- He later goes on to explain about the transfinite nature of the Multiverse, where the transfinite is greater than infinity. - Quasar Vol 1 #25 - August, 1991 (Mark Gruenwald)
- The subspace is part of the Negative Zone - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #62 - February 14, 1967 (Stan Lee/Jack Kirby)
- Sub-space is actually a non-realm which links our own universe with the negative zone! In fact, it's my theory that sub-space could be the gateway to an infinite number of space-time continuums... Even to alternate realities. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #231 - June, 1981 (Doug Moench/Roger Stern)
- The crossroads of infinity, a.k.a the junction to everywhere, is located deep within the dread negative zone. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #319 - October 01, 1988 (Steve Englehart)
- Again the junction to everywhere being portrayed inside the negative universe of earth 616, in a recapitulation of all comics so far. - History of the Marvel Universe Vol 2 #3 - September 18, 2019 (Mark Waid)
- The Sixth Iteration of the Cosmos is the creator of science, hence, the junction to everywhere. - Ultimates 2 Vol 1 #100 - August 16, 2017
- The very concept of science was born in the sixth multiverse. - Defenders Vol 6 #2 - September 8, 2021
Mark Gruenwald
- Mark Gruenwalk's cosmology contains higher planes of existence- Quasar Vol 1 #20 March, 1991
- There are more than one higher plane, the planes are higher than the lower ones, as the Watchers talk about the existence of planes of existence even higher than theirs, such as those of the Celestials- Quasar Vol 1 #25 - August, 1991
- As was aforementioned (in the subspace/hyperspace section), these planes are transfinite to infinite, and fit the wiki's parameters.
- Gruenwald also quoted that ''Eternity is so transfinite that there ate numerous manifestationof the entity in the Dimension of Manifestations'' - Quasar Vol 1 #37 - August, 1992
- Which is a rebuttal for @LuciferX arguing that the dimension of manifestation (which is not the overspace, different realms) is only 16D.
4. "Infinite Levels"
But it is refering to bubble realities created by Hypercomputers which are real fantasies.
In fact., they aren't real.
also it says "us who can observe multiverse on infinite levels" mean humans can observe inf spatial dimensions? doesn't make sense. thus, could refer to infinite alt existences.
The bubble realities were made by Pythagoras Dupree's hypermind, the ''Hypercomputer'' here isn't about non-real probabilities inside a actual computer, but outcomes that is genarated either by Amadeus Cho or Dupree, since their power is ''Hyper computing equations, and their battle was through collapsing quantum possibilities'', and Cho's power which is the same as Dupree, is the natural ability to identify the variables and quantum possibilities in situation, and use this information to adjust the outome.
Besides, there is nothing there saying that necessarily the infinite levels of the Multiverse are part of the bubble realities created by Pythagoras Dupree's mind, take a look at the wording used by Amadeus Cho:
Nowhere does it say that the infinite levels are part of the bubbles created by his hypermind, but rather part of the multiverse. So yeah, a guy with a hypermind that can calculate every possibility and alter their outcomes can do that, that's not an actual concrete argue against his ability to being with. Aside from the fact that everything inside the bubble realities was real.
The scan is self-explanatory, the Beyonder had infinite dimensions, and now he is in a body with 3 spatial dimension, I am sure these are not microscopic dimensions, howbeit i'll not get into a in-depth analysis about this rn.6. Only scan that actually mention about infinite dimensions is this, but there is no evidence whether they have qualitative superiority. you can't use other comic series as evidence to prove since this version is limited to "Secret Wars 2", also other abstarct beings are below than PR Beyonder and doesn't scale to him. However, this is invalid now due to being a retcon.
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Your scan didn't say they are dimensionally being readjusted to access higher dimensions
Ultima already proved High 1-B Negative Zone most of these just prove R>F difference not High 1-B.
Please how does this prove High 1-B?
Agreed but throughout this event qualitative superiority wasn't really shown, but I hypothesise that his High 1-B in beyond realm due to it's nature and size compared to the marvel universe, but should be 3-D/2-A in in-multiverse self up to possibly High 1-B with powers.
Cause beyonder in multiverse wasn't High-1B especially as he lacked qualitative superiority against the X-men, Avengers e.t.c.
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Read Ultima's argument, this is just support evidence. He literally send the fantastic four being dimensionaly readjusted in the distortion area, and having your vision being adjusted for higher infinities go into this interpretation, asides from the fact that he already sent a scan of dimensional readjustment of that same structure
Yes, and it's just to support his argument that these dimensions he has argued are qualitatively higher to each other.
It's a rebuttal from a non-sense claimed here, however the context is a collapse of every possible quantum state into the wave function, and is already accepted as High 1-B.
Same, and he is indeed just a 3D being, he has Steve Rogers body. But as I said before, it's still good to do a in-depth analysis to please everyone.
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The scan Ultima sent wasn't on their dimensionality being readjusted and the page under isn't even clear enough to read, Ultima already proved High 1-B that's fair enough not on dimensionality being readjusted and whatnot.
What he sent was enough but no problem.
Where?
Had my plans on it, will probably work on it in the near future.
LuciferX
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Well. Below scan says negative zone shares same three dimension as man's universe/multiverse.
Also If Reed saw inf dimensions, then he need to precieve them.
Contextless? It had some context that's why it got rejected in past unless DC is 1-B so far.
but there is no further context about the Marvel scan. why even the character mention it take as a reliable source? It's not a explicit mention of higher dimensions by any means.
That scan was addressed before in this thread by Ovy7.
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LuciferX
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@Alonik
1. It was stated "us who can observe multiverse on infinite levels" indicate levels refer to realities. not higher levels of existences.
There is also a scan saying "transfinite levels of existences" more like refer to alt dimensions/realities rather than higher levels since transfinite used to describe the number of universes exist in Multiverse.
2. I didn't deny Beyonder scan, it is the only scan clearly mention infinite dimensions with a credible source. (beyonder) and make sense there.
1. It was stated "us who can observe multiverse on infinite levels" indicate levels refer to realities. not higher levels of existences.
There is also a scan saying "transfinite levels of existences" more like refer to alt dimensions/realities rather than higher levels since transfinite used to describe the number of universes exist in Multiverse.
2. I didn't deny Beyonder scan, it is the only scan clearly mention infinite dimensions with a credible source. (beyonder) and make sense there.
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LuciferX
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But wasn't that about the number of universes? not higher planes?
First, Dr.Strange mentioned the number of universes in multiverse isn't infinite but transfinite.
then said, man's multiverse is 3D along with negative zone and some other dimensions. dark dimension, dream dimension stated to be six dimensional and LT judges universes spatial number 2 to 6.
in doctor strange series, cosmology caps at 1-C. (if we assume LT and other abstracts live in a higher level than the universes he judges)
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I think the fact that his mention of controlling dimensionality is prefaced by a considerable amount of text talking about alternate universes should dictate that this scan is definitely about universes, not spatial dimensions.
I don't necessarily disagree with this argument, but I can see both sides. You're right in that the comic explicitly portrays Reed as shifting through various levels of spatial dimensionality as he goes through different realms, indicating that he is taking on the dimesnionality of the various realms he's in.
I am not sure it is so concrete, however, that him reaching the crossroads and saying "limitless dimensions" should also refer to dimensionality. I think the evidence is not bad, but strongly obfuscated by the fact that he is literally in one of the only places in Marvel where describing himself as being "in a world of limitless dimensions" could refer to either spatial dimensions or universes.
Further by the fact that the next two descriptions he gives the realm refer to it's access to other realms, not spatial dimensionality. "I'm drifting into a world of limitless dimensions! It's the Crossroads of Infinity -- the junction to everywhere!"
I think it could go either way, but it strikes me as an odd coincidence that he would be describing both at the same time.
It was with regard to the Cantor "transfinite sets" scan. Essentially it was said that if taken at face value, setting aside the poor explanation of greater infinities, saying that Marvel has Aleph Infinity universes or levels of power would render it 1-A+. This was mentioned in defense of it's dismissal for the aforementioned bad mathematics. I am defending the scan, not because I think it should be used for 1-A+, but because I do not think the poor explanation of how greater infinities work should by itself be used as a reason to dismiss the scan entirely. Most things that we evaluate at that level do not reference the advanced math involved at all, and to me it seems backwards to 'punish' the author for at least trying to communicate the concept of greater infinities. We are all aware that adding two countable infinities doesn't create an uncountable one, but how many old-school comic authors know that? I just don't agree with rewarding silence. The intention was clear, and they explicitly reference an infinite series of greater infinities. That being the case, we should use a different reason to dismiss it than "the author didn't reference bijection"
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Wouldn't matter, our tiering system allows them to scale even if it represents universes. But as ultima said, using those scans will cause marvel not to past even tier 2. It's just one of many non sense statements.
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Yes, the Negative Zone has repeatedly been explicitly portrayed as three-dimensional, just like the regular universe that it mirrors. I think that I found some other examples of this in the preceding discussion about this issue.Well. Below scan says negative zone shares same three dimension as man's universe/multiverse.
That said, I have no true problem with the interpretation that a higher- or even infinite-dimensional nexus intersects with the Negative Zone, and that the entire Marvel multiverse accordingly may be High 1-B.
LuciferX
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My problem is, it was stated several times abstracts are higher dimensional and reside in 1-B planes. scaling them to High 1-B and Tier A rankings seems inaccurate to me tbh. I'm aware that a character can get to A tier without having an infinite layered cosmology, but at least this should downgrade some characters for not having inf layered cosmology.
Even Beyonders/Ivory Kings described as Over Dimensional Beings (more than 3D) means sort of higher dimensional entities like other abstracts.
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