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Yeah, and in that same comic with celestials and cubic, he dosen't even mention higher alephs.
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Marvel Cosmology Downgrade
- Thread starter LuciferX
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- cosmology marvel comics
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He does, however, mention greater levels of infinity, and the word transfinite.
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It has alot of problems emerging with how he has defined it and in the end, the only thing we are relying on is that he has said one infinity is greater than another which doesn't helps the case even a little bit. That's the entire thing in the scan.
And all other verses who hasn't used the mathematics correctly are in the same page. They also don't know 2*infinite is not bigger.
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So apparently just mentioning "higher infinites" is enough for aleph scaling.
And i know alephs are mentioned in doctor strange comic, but it dosen't help much if those alephs aren't as strong as rl alephs.
I'm just waiting for a time when one verse just needs to mention Higher infinites to get 1-A+ scaling.
And i know alephs are mentioned in doctor strange comic, but it dosen't help much if those alephs aren't as strong as rl alephs.
I'm just waiting for a time when one verse just needs to mention Higher infinites to get 1-A+ scaling.
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Please stop misrepresenting our arguments.
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My apologies, but Tier 1 stuff is completely out of my wheelhouse (and I really don’t like cosmology stuff for Marvel/DC), so I don’t think I’ll be much help here.
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Sorry, what did i misinterpreted again?
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The evidence, and our arguments, are not best described as "they said higher infinities."
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Strongly agreed.
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Yes, I am also uneasy with it. It also seems far too high for Marvel in context with the general portrayal in other stories.
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I agree, I am just not okay with the reasoning being that they didn't describe the math correctly. If we have anti-feats or if this seems like an outlier, or etc, then that's a different discussion entirely.
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But the Kosmos and Kubik story was from an unknown writer in a very obscure Fantastic Four annual side story. It seems very unreliable to base our entire understanding of Marvel Comics scaling on something like that.
And the Doctor Strange story seems to have gotten the mathematical principles wrong and not have been officially established and referenced anywhere afterwards.
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I think that's a fair point.
I agree with the latter, not the former. My sole contention is this: If we are going to dismiss it, inconsistency is a good reason. Bad math, IMO, absolutely isn't. How many verses actually reference bijection or use the word 'uncountable?' I am sure they exist, but I have seen many that don't. This scan, in a vacuum, is as good as any for establishing greater infinities. I prefer we focus on things like "this is out of line with other comics" than say "we won't accept it because this guy wasn't a mathematician."
Hasty12345
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That’s fine, but I’d just argue infinities work differently in marvel based on this explanation, and it does not coincide with our tiering system unfortunately.
and I don’t think referencing cantor has any kind weight, especially when cantor knew two countable infinities doesn’t equal an uncountable infinity. Marvel cantor is an idiot.
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Well, based on that I can buy High 1-B for oldschool Marvel Comics, but not 1-A+ or higher.
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Honestly, when the feat in question is mentioned twice, in two seperate stories, I don’t think it’s an inconsistency at all. Transfinite has been mentioned more times than those two instances, and even if the math is wrong, we cannot disregard the “Higher levels of infinity” that was mentioned.
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Yes. Marvel has never had such a vast hierarchy of power firmly established as far as I am aware. At least definitely not in the modern cosmology.
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I don't think that's giving the comic a fair shake. If you pick any random author and ask them to establish "higher infinities" in their comics, I am sure it would look similar. The fact that these comics would benefit in their tiering from not getting into the details seems backwards to me. Despite the misstep, they went to considerable lengths to establish greater infinities in a mathematically sound way, and that is very important.
Agreed. My only caveat is that if it is indeed overruled by a large body of other evidence that shows these beings aren't that powerful, that would take precedence. e.g. if Kubik struggles with galaxy level fights, and the "orders of magnitude higher than us" being gets defeated by a 2-A being, then that would overrule the statement IMO.
I just don't agree with dismissing it because of the math.
Hasty12345
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It’s clear marvels higher infinities don’t coincide with our tiering system given 2*infinity = higher infinity
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Thank you.
Well, a statement of infinite degrees of infinity seems fine at least, if it was explicit, as it is hard for an author to misunderstand, but an infinite series of alephs requires a higher degree of evidence that authors know what they are talking about, and also needs to be consistent with the setting as a whole of course.
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You said that the first time, but you didn't address anything in my response to that.
I just feel like we're working from an inconsistent standard of evidence. You know me, I am not the person who carelessly supports overblown tiering, and I see a lot of people try to sneak in upgrades based on extremely generously interpreted scans, and I believe there are a lot of profiles on the wiki that are way way way overrated. However, this is one of the most direct and matter-of-fact scans about higher infinities I've ever seen, and I think the standard of "must demonstrate familiarity with advanced mathematics" is not one that we generally impose upon other verses. I have the impression that this is being used as a hail mary to prevent a rather unfavorable upgrade, because it provides an "out" for an otherwise extremely clear scan, but I don't think that's right. I think we should focus on establishing it's truly inconsistent with Marvel.
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Can somebody summarise what you want to do here exactly? Only apply High 1-B statistics for pre-Quesada Marvel Comics, or something considerably more?
I do not think that somebody simply suddenly using the word "Inaccessible Cardinal" without knowing what it means in a story that has not been referenced anywhere else in a setting where there have likely been over 100,000 regular comic books in sum total should warrant tier High 1-A or 0 statistics for all the most powerful characters within it, for example.
I do not think that somebody simply suddenly using the word "Inaccessible Cardinal" without knowing what it means in a story that has not been referenced anywhere else in a setting where there have likely been over 100,000 regular comic books in sum total should warrant tier High 1-A or 0 statistics for all the most powerful characters within it, for example.
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I would greatly appreciate help with research in this regard in any case.
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I would just like to say something here, if the author himself/herself dosen't know about set theory and how it works thats fine, but when those inaccuracies show up in they're works, then i see a problem.
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I just read that scan. It's obvious the author thought that transfinite means beyond infinite.
And putting "using wrong terms" aside. We should evaluate the story in a vacuum and see the idea they're trying to convey.
Is the tier system based on using specific buzzwords correctly, or is it based on what the the story actually conveys?
And putting "using wrong terms" aside. We should evaluate the story in a vacuum and see the idea they're trying to convey.
Is the tier system based on using specific buzzwords correctly, or is it based on what the the story actually conveys?
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Not saying anything math related at all shouldn't be better for tiering than getting math somewhat wrong.
Fully agree
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,622
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I think ignoring the explanation in favour of buzzwords is more or less just cherry-picking and straight up dishonest.
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I agree.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 4,622
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I think this crt as it currently stands just proves the need for a more in-depth marvel cosmology analysis
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I am not sure, but a lot of the "feats" that we currently scale our Marvel Comics cosmology on seem to have been rejected, although one of them may or may not imply a higher tier than we currently use. It is also likely an oddity compared to the otherwise established scale of the cosmology though.
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Well, what has been uncovered here would be a useful start at least.
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Our standards are designed to make the ideas of different authors compatible with each other.
In comics, infinitely larger spaces than infinite 4d spaces are not five dimensions. But we give it the nickname 5D because it can be compared to a 5D space.
infinity that is twice as big as infinity cannot be compatible with Tier 1.
Our standard is when it has to be at least 2^N0 to be Tier 1.
In other words, Marvel's misrepresentation should be viewed as an infinite layer of Marvel itself, and in order to make it compatible with our standards, we should not cling to the word Aleph, but look at what Marvel itself describes.
The hierarchy where higher infinities continue infinitely in a way that is twice as large as lower is still 2-A.
In comics, infinitely larger spaces than infinite 4d spaces are not five dimensions. But we give it the nickname 5D because it can be compared to a 5D space.
infinity that is twice as big as infinity cannot be compatible with Tier 1.
Our standard is when it has to be at least 2^N0 to be Tier 1.
In other words, Marvel's misrepresentation should be viewed as an infinite layer of Marvel itself, and in order to make it compatible with our standards, we should not cling to the word Aleph, but look at what Marvel itself describes.
The hierarchy where higher infinities continue infinitely in a way that is twice as large as lower is still 2-A.
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Marvel macroverse, already has scans that show that their spaces have infinite dimensions(directions of space). This alone is viable for High 1-B according to our current standards.
Focusing on one erroneous line, doesn't negate that.
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Yes, I was talking about 1-A+ Marvel.
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I also think that High 1-B seems reasonable after we have sifted away the scans/stories that have been clearly debunked in this thread, but 1-A+ seems way too high to be compatible with the rest of the history of the cosmology.
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I would still greatly appreciate help with organising these revisions later on btw.
@Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Alonik
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