Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

[DaReaperMan]

Efi, mate, the profiles are Varies in all but name, 5-B is nowhere near the consistently lowest folks like Thor have consistently held back to from what I know, so to make this consistent with your arguments, you'd need tier 8 Thor and Hulk or some shit.

 

[Eficiente]

the profiles are Varies in all but name

Because they somewhat do something similar, right, why does it matter?

5-B is nowhere near the consistently lowest folks like Thor have consistently held back to from what I know, so to make this consistent with your arguments, you'd need tier 8 Thor and Hulk or some shit.

Ok, can you prove lower stats than 5-B are even more consistent? You must know like 50 or maybe even 100 times Thor was harmed by things or unable to do feats below 5-B. And to note, it's clear that in early comics characters like Thor had a different, inconsistent power level and speed that was later changed over the years, so it would stand to reason to dismiss anti-feats like that from the 60s. If you think I'm not being fair or I'm saying something that doesn't make sense then please elaborate the why of it.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

But Hyperion survived the point blank collission and resulting destruction of two universal space-time continuums. That seems like a 2-C feat to me.

Well, this was Eficiente's explanation to why it isn't a 2-C feat

You can't get Low Multiverse level durability from 2 universes collapsing like this for a few reasons. They only do so in the present, they only affect Hyperion in the present. A human-sized part between those universes isn't taking 2-C amounts of power, the 2-C power is the whole feat of the universes collapsing, this is environmental destruction, not something like a bomb blowing up in his face. The feat's unquantifiable as there is no way to know how much power went for every small part of the universe to be reduced to a white nothing. 2-C is also more than just destroying 2 universes, but the space between them too, and the universes were already too close when Hyperion took them collapsing.

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, a fraction of 2-C should still be pretty high...

Although Efi's point does make some sense.

 

[Eficiente]

There was a bit more to it, this was an Incursion, one of those made up things that goes like this: 1 planet Earth gets teleported near another planet Earth, they're about to collide. If they don't collide (if one of both Earth gets destroyed), nothing happens. If they collide, the rest of the planets, stars and galaxies of the universe get teleported near their counterparts of the other universe, and they smash into each other via force and get destroyed. There is more to it than that as only a white nothing remains, but this is not "2 universes colliding via approaching across the space between them, destroying that higher d. space in the way (2-C)", the space between them isn't touched as everything is teleported in place. Everything gets destroyed via environmental destruction, being where it all starts doesn't make you take in all the power like you're taking a bomb.

And Hyperion and other Heralds were portrayed as dying from Incursions later on, which means that this has to be an outlier (Maybe Incursions throws in some hax that only Hyperion resists, if so meaning that they can all die fine w/o it being an outlier, sure, but Hyperion himself would need to be able to survive those).

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because they somewhat do something similar, right, why does it matter?

Ok, can you prove lower stats than 5-B are even more consistent? You must know like 50 or maybe even 100 times Thor was harmed by things or unable to do feats below 5-B. And to note, it's clear that in early comics characters like Thor had a different, inconsistent power level and speed that was later changed over the years, so it would stand to reason to dismiss anti-feats like that from the 60s. If you think I'm not being fair or I'm saying something that doesn't make sense then please elaborate the why of it.

If I did, say, Warcraft with "8-C holding back, 7-A when holding back less, 5-B when serious" there'd be kittens had, and the profile would get told to shape up or be deleted, because that is not in our tiring system, we don't do holding back tiers, if we did, I guarantee you that say, Saitama wouldve already gotten them.

If i wanted to go out of my way to find scans for a verse I'm not focused on RN(like, honestly, I have 3 verses lined up in a row and several RPs), we'd be here for like 6 months doing nothing, if I get around to it I'd rather make another CRT to tackle it, which, chances are, I won't, as I like to keep myself a busy little beaver. Maybe sometime in the future, yes I will have those scans lined up, but the future isn't now.

 

[Eficiente]

That is an immense false equivalence, this is a character from the 60s that still has comics now, in 2022. I could read all of One Punch Man's manga in the time it takes you to read the comics in which Thor holds back to be 5-B and faces anyone or anything that scales to 5-B. How many hypothetical profiles would scale from those hypothetical "holding back" false equivalences stats?

I would think this is something meaningless that happens to all characters regardless of their power, but if you want to insist then ok, if it's notably worst than what everyone else has in Marvel has then it improves the argument.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then explain on the pages in-question, hell, even for Dr. Doom, say he fought evenly with a held back Thor, that small specification says he doesnt scale to Thor's 3-C or 2-C self, which would be reinforced by putting a note at the bottom of Thor's profile going "Thor holds back in a lot of fights, use these specifications to see if a character scales to his full stats or not.". Folks are expected to read the files in question before making a CRT, if they don't, explain it quickly but efficiently and close the CRT.

 

[Eseseso]

Since most of Doom's Herald-level prep feats (like his Power Cosmic Doombots scaling to Silver Surfer and his copy of the Destroyer Armor scaling to Thor) have been debunked on this very thread, I think we should just do what we did with Odin and make his tech/absorption/prep just go up to 2-A.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Since most of Doom's Herald-level prep feats (like his Power Cosmic Doombots scaling to Silver Surfer and his copy of the Destroyer Armor scaling to Thor) have been debunked on this very thread, I think we should just do what we did with Odin and make his tech/absorption/prep just go up to 2-A.

I agree with this

 

[Vasco]

Well, this was Eficiente's explanation to why it isn't a 2-C feat

Eficiente is right since it only happened in the present it's 3-A.

 

[Eficiente]

Then explain on the pages in-question, hell, even for Dr. Doom, say he fought evenly with a held back Thor, that small specification says he doesnt scale to Thor's 3-C or 2-C self, which would be reinforced by putting a note at the bottom of Thor's profile going "Thor holds back in a lot of fights, use these specifications to see if a character scales to his full stats or not.". Folks are expected to read the files in question before making a CRT, if they don't, explain it quickly but efficiently and close the CRT.

That wouldn't show how consistently he does so at 5-B, as it's we having many scans that show that he holds back rather than showing all the 5-B characters he has fought while holding back.

You must know like 50 or maybe even 100 times Thor was harmed by things or unable to do feats below 5-B.

Btw I kinda acted as if a held back Thor doesn't have his own feats anywhere above Tier 8 but below 5-B, which obviously don't obligatory mean "this is his peak (while holding back)". The amount of anti-feats he would need is much, much higher than 100 for that argument to be meaningful.

Since most of Doom's Herald-level prep feats (like his Power Cosmic Doombots scaling to Silver Surfer and his copy of the Destroyer Armor scaling to Thor) have been debunked on this very thread, I think we should just do what we did with Odin and make his tech/absorption/prep just go up to 2-A.

Can you please quote that so I can see it?

 

[Eseseso]

Can you please quote that so I can see it?

From which comic book is this? Also, just because they channelled the power cosmic, this does not mean that they were remotely equal in raw power to the Silver Surfer any more than the Silver Surfer is equal to Galactus.

Hulk will definitely keep his variable tier, given that it is canonical.

This might work, yes. In case Thor was not holding back.

You need to provide a story issue reference for this as well, and also link to images in a way so they can be viewed by simply clicking on them from another site, and Fandom has defences against doing so. Imgur would probably work better in this regard.

It seems like everybody can fight everybody outliers to me. My apologies.

So basically, only Doom's artificial Power Cosmic which he says to Terrax is openly equal to Silver surfer (as currently stated on his profile), his replica of the Destroyer Armor that matched an angry Thor, and absorbing the Silver Surfuer's power would stay.

The Power Cosmic Doombots are apparently not 2-C.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't see why we can't just do with Doom what we did with Odin. It's not like Doom has only one 2-A feat.

 

[Eficiente]

Thanks, sadly it's not very elaborated so I'll see the context.

Doombots peak at this level, as Doom possesses a small army of them powered by an artificial emulation of the Power Cosmic comparable to the real thing.

This isn't 616's Doom, this needs to be removed.

Can cut through Hulk's skull with an adamantium chainsaw to perform brain surgery

Pretty sure we have adamantium at 3-C, even if it's super inconsistent.

and recreate the Destroyer by draining the Odinforce from a bunch of Asgardians.

This one's legit, he used prep time to fight evenly against Thor right after losing against him himself. He claims to have improved the armor, which is likely boasting. We have the Destroyer at 2-C which not true at all, why doesn't it 3-C too?

Can artificially emulate the Power Cosmic

Doom says that the power will be equal to SS's. Tyros, the guy he powers, then fights the FF while going easy on them & the FF have a hard time. Then Doom fights Tyros, loses and says to himself that it was stupid to fight him rather than use a Doombot (Doom just needed to destroy his armor to win. Desroying his armor would make the Power Cosmic destroy Tyros). then SS comes in and fights Tyros in Fantastic Four (1961) issue 260, it's claimed that it "rages a battle such as the planet Earth has never seen" and things like that, Tyros was shown before to even be sure to be even more powerful than before (Herald level) & be able to travel the stars with SS's board (but he is stupid so I can ignore that), at the end SS wins with the Power Cosmic having destroyed Tyros in the same wording Doom used (so SS just destroyed his armor), the collateral damage of the final bit of the battle even annihilated Dr. Doom's 5-B armor & his body inside.

So this is legit 3-C.

 

[Eseseso]

Thanks, sadly it's not very elaborated so I'll see the context.



This isn't 616's Doom, this needs to be removed.

Thanks.

Pretty sure we have adamantium at 3-C, even if it's super inconsistent.

So it doesn't get the 2-C buff?

This one's legit, he used prep time to fight evenly against Thor right after losing against him himself. He claims to have improved the armor, which is likely boasting. We have the Destroyer at 2-C which not true at all, why doesn't it 3-C too?

Well its profile says it's consistently above Thor, who is now a 2-C.

 

[Excellence616]

Hulk and Thor have fought while being 5-B many times, if not most of the time;

If I remember correctly, Hulk and Thor fought again during the immortal hulk arc. Thor was getting brutal as severely damaged Hulk's arm. Hulk was just trying to protect The Gamma Flights.

 

[Eficiente]

I edited the comment to add the last small sentence I forgot.

Doesn't The Destroyer scale above Thor at his peak?

Well its profile says it's consistently above Thor, who is now a 2-C.

This would be the Destroyer powered by any random person, its first key. It varies in power but we somehow have that as only 3 disconnected keys. When it was powered by Sif's soul it could fight evenly against a depowered Thor that was on par with Wrecker and the Thing, for example.

So it doesn't get the 2-C buff?

We can cover adamantium here.

If I remember correctly, Hulk and Thor fought again during the immortal hulk arc. Thor was getting brutal as severely damaged Hulk's arm. Hulk was just trying to protect The Gamma Flights.

What about it?

 

[Excellence616]

What about it?

Just trying to add to Hulk and Thor battles. Since Thor was somehow serious. And that Thor sometimes ignore that Banner is still Hulk and goes overboard and Thor holding back rules sometimes doesn't always apply to Hulk.

 

[Eficiente]

I can make a blog about it.
---

Rethinking things through, I don't agree with the average Herald being "3-C normally, 2-C at peak". They don't have a mechanic where they go from one tier to another by putting more effort into it. If they are already not holding back, most context they're in should already make them be at their peak, be it a life-or-death battle, saving a lot of people, being angry, or being stated to go all out. What context would make them jump from 3-C to 2-C mid-battle? Nothing that wasn't already there, and if they were fighting another 3-C how are they not annihilating with this tier jump they have but the opponent doesn't?

It's worded wrong. "3-C, likely/possibly 2-C" or "3-C to 2-C" makes far more sense as it means 2 average Heralds fighting w/o holing back are at the same tier (3-C or 2-C), w/o any 1 of them or both being able to jump into yet another tier mid-fight.

Now, Thor does jump into another tier via enough effort, but that's his own personnel thing and most of the time he does similar efforts and doesn't jump his tier in any context (like going up against other Heralds w/o holding back).

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Just trying to add to Hulk and Thor battles. Since Thor was somehow serious. And that Thor sometimes ignore that Banner is still Hulk and goes overboard and Thor holding back rules sometimes doesn't always apply to Hulk.

I mean it's consistent that Peak Hulk is on par with Peak Thor so this doesn't really change anything

 

[Eficiente]

Rethinking things through, I don't agree with the average Herald being "3-C normally, 2-C at peak". They don't have a mechanic where they go from one tier to another by putting more effort into it. If they are already not holding back, most context they're in should already make them be at their peak, be it a life-or-death battle, saving a lot of people, being angry, or being stated to go all out. What context would make them jump from 3-C to 2-C mid-battle? Nothing that wasn't already there, and if they were fighting another 3-C how are they not annihilating with this tier jump they have but the opponent doesn't?

It's worded wrong. "3-C, likely/possibly 2-C" or "3-C to 2-C" makes far more sense as it means 2 average Heralds fighting w/o holing back are at the same tier (3-C or 2-C), w/o any 1 of them or both being able to jump into yet another tier mid-fight.

Now, Thor does jump into another tier via enough effort, but that's his own personnel thing and most of the time he does similar efforts and doesn't jump his tier in any context (like going up against other Heralds w/o holding back).

I think this was (in intention) trying to be the next "High 6-C when holding back, 3-C at peak" but without substance. Meaning, without plenty of examples of:

• a difference of one stat and the other being proven
• fights where characters start at the lower at but later switch to the higher stat
• fights where it's the other way around
• records of even fights & stomps against the same characters on the same tier as the lower stat, due the Herald using the lower stat on the even fights and the higher stat on the stomps

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this was Eficiente's explanation to why it isn't a 2-C feat

Okay, so it is only a 3-A or High 3-A feat then?

I am not so sure that time was not destroyed as well though, given that after all of the Marvel universes had collided, the Marvel multiverse was genuinely completely gone, with the exception of the Secret Wars Doom world.

 

[Antvasima]

Then explain on the pages in-question, hell, even for Dr. Doom, say he fought evenly with a held back Thor, that small specification says he doesnt scale to Thor's 3-C or 2-C self, which would be reinforced by putting a note at the bottom of Thor's profile going "Thor holds back in a lot of fights, use these specifications to see if a character scales to his full stats or not.". Folks are expected to read the files in question before making a CRT, if they don't, explain it quickly but efficiently and close the CRT.

We already wrote such a footnote, in case you did not know.

 

[Eficiente]

Okay, so it is only a 3-A or High 3-A feat then?

I am not so sure that time was not destroyed as well though, given that after all of the Marvel universes had collided, the Marvel multiverse was genuinely completely gone, with the exception of the Secret Wars Doom world.

It's unqualifiable due to being environmental destruction.

It's odd due to being some made up thing rather than something natural. Its rules apply physical destruction and after that happens time is destroyed too. It doesn't make any sense based on what leads to it happening but those are its rules.

 

[Antvasima]

It's unqualifiable due to being environmental destruction.

It's odd due to being some made up thing rather than something natural. Its rules apply physical destruction and after that happens time is destroyed too. It doesn't make any sense based on what leads to it happening but those are its rules.

I think that you likely overcomplicate the feat, but am not sure.

Anyway, should we go with Eficiente's conclusions about our scaling for Doctor Doom and the herald level characters?

 

[Eficiente]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magneto_(Marvel_Comics)?diff=next&oldid=7684303

New wording implies Magneto can do this at any time, the old wording implies that he could only do so because he covered his body with tech that already had the ability to do that and maybe amped it with his own power. I plan to change it like this, like this.

 

[Eseseso]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magneto_(Marvel_Comics)?diff=next&oldid=7684303

New wording implies Magneto can do this at any time, the old wording implies that he could only do so because he covered his body with tech that already had the ability to do that and maybe amped it with his own power. I plan to change it like this.

Those 5-B justifications for Magneto, Doom, and Sue Storm are excellent!

Great job, Efi!

 

[Antvasima]

I made some grammar and minor sentence structure corrections, but except for that it looked good to me.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magneto_(Marvel_Comics)?diff=next&oldid=7684303

New wording implies Magneto can do this at any time, the old wording implies that he could only do so because he covered his body with tech that already had the ability to do that and maybe amped it with his own power. I plan to change it like this, like this.

@Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

We would appreciate your continued help in this thread.

 

[Gasper]

That looks fine to me.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magneto_(Marvel_Comics)?diff=next&oldid=7684303

New wording implies Magneto can do this at any time, the old wording implies that he could only do so because he covered his body with tech that already had the ability to do that and maybe amped it with his own power. I plan to change it like this, like this.

Looks great

 

[LordTracer]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magneto_(Marvel_Comics)?diff=next&oldid=7684303

New wording implies Magneto can do this at any time, the old wording implies that he could only do so because he covered his body with tech that already had the ability to do that and maybe amped it with his own power. I plan to change it like this, like this.

If it’s such a situational thing, does it really need to be on his profile?

 

[Eficiente]

Well, not really, we can dismiss it if needed. As a prep time thing it seems notable as he can physically strike others at 5-B and his durability (w/o his forcefield) is 5-B too.

 

[LordTracer]

If he’s only done it that one time, it doesn’t seem notable enough to me.

 

[Eseseso]

@Eficiente

Just to finish discussing Doom's 2-C stuff, the only stuff @Antvasima hasn't rejected (since he says the Power Cosmic Doombots don't scale to the Silver Surfer) is Doom artificially creating enough of the Power Cosmic to rival Silver Surfer (which he stated himself), absorbing the Silver Surfer's power (which needs no explanation), and him making a Destroyer Armor which fought a serious Thor.

3 2-C feats is IMO enough for his low-end prep to be 2-C, but the "Odin option" of just making him go up to a 2-A (as he has like a half-dozen 2-A prep/tech/absorption feats) would also be fine, and make his AP justification section shorter and cleaner as well.

 

[Eficiente]

If he’s only done it that one time, it doesn’t seem notable enough to me.

Alright.

@Eficiente

Just to finish discussing Doom's 2-C stuff, the only stuff @Antvasima hasn't rejected (since he says the Power Cosmic Doombots don't scale to the Silver Surfer) is Doom artificially creating enough of the Power Cosmic to rival Silver Surfer (which he stated himself), absorbing the Silver Surfer's power (which needs no explanation), and him making a Destroyer Armor which fought a serious Thor.

3 2-C feats is IMO enough for his low-end prep to be 2-C, but the "Odin option" of just making him go up to a 2-A (as he has like a half-dozen 2-A prep/tech/absorption feats) would also be fine, and make his AP justification section shorter and cleaner as well.

It's pretty finished from my part, I'm waiting an ok. Also remember that the Power Cosmic Doombots aren't even from 616's Earth and I plan to fuse the "3-C normally, 2-C at peak" because they're not something separate.

 

[Eseseso]

It's pretty finished from my part, I'm waiting an ok. Also remember that the Power Cosmic Doombots aren't even from 616's Earth and I plan to fuse the "3-C normally, 2-C at peak" because they're not something separate.

Forgot that they weren't from Earth 616. Nvm.

But what's exactly going on with the "3-C, 2-C at peak" stuff?

 

[Antvasima]

I plan to fuse the "3-C normally, 2-C at peak" because they're not something separate.

I hope that we will not entirely get rid of the variable tiers, given that it would likely create a scaling mess.