Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

[Antvasima]

Also, what should we do in each of the other cases that we talked about above?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Should we get rid of devil Hulk's lower border 5-B level given the above showings?

Not sure, but if we do, perhaps his new rating could be like this?:

"Varies (Although the Devil Hulk has more control over Banner and thus is more brutal and stronger than the Savage Hulk, he is still restricted by Bruce Banner's and his own moral code) from Galaxy level (Fought against Jane Foster Thor and Hercules) to Low Multiverse level at peak (Fought and overpowered an enraged Celestial-amplified She-Hulk)"
I don't trust any scaling to shitty, Aaron-ruined, jobber, unworthy Thor

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems fine, yes.

Also, I personally consider Jason Aaron, Garth Ennis, and Warren Ellis to be three of the greatest disease-spreading abominations ever unleashed upon the western comic book industry.

 

[Vasco]

Not sure, but if we do, perhaps his new rating could be like this?:

"Varies (Although the Devil Hulk has more control over Banner and thus is more brutal and stronger than the Savage Hulk, he is still restricted by Bruce Banner's and his own moral code) from Galaxy level (Fought against Jane Foster Thor and Hercules) to Low Multiverse level at peak (Fought and overpowered an enraged Celestial-amplified She-Hulk)"
I don't trust any scaling to shitty, Aaron-ruined, jobber, unworthy Thor

I'd like to ask what makes a celestial-amplified she hulk 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the "unworthy" version of Thor stated outright that she was much more powerful than him, she broke the Invisible Woman's force fields without noticing, and she kept up with the Devil Hulk, who effortlessly overpowered Hercules, much better than Thor did.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I'd like to ask what makes a celestial-amplified she hulk 2-C.

Was discussed earlier in the thread and it's on her profile

Considerably stronger than before after being enhanced by Eson the Celestial. Held her own against Terrax. Comparable to Thor. Drew blood from the Devil Hulk at her peak rage

Well, Thor strongly respecting the Celestial-amplified She-Hulk's raw power, her matching a herald of Galactus, being able to almost match the Devil Hulk, produce explosions supposedly beyond him, and plowing through the Invisible Woman's force fields without even noticing their existence, does strongly hint that she did reach a 2-C scale of power when sufficiently angry.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we get rid of devil Hulk's lower border 5-B level given the above showings?

Also, what should we do in each of the other cases that we talked about above?

So about this.

Also:

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

This is an extremely important scaling thread for all of the tiers 5-B, 3-C, and 2-C characters, so we would very greatly appreciate continuous constructive help from all of you here.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

According to his profile Devil Hulk’s strength still fluctuates due to his mental inhibitions, so I suppose we’d need to keep his 5-B key to account for when he fought The Thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we could also simply consider that as an outlier, due to Dan Slott and Tom Brevoort really really liking The Thing.

 

[Eseseso]

Well, we could also simply consider that as an outlier, due to Dan Slott and Tom Brevoort really really liking The Thing.

Agreed.

 

[Eficiente]

Would it be sufficient to simply state that Thor recurrently holds back to a 5-B degree in the footnotes section of his page, or do we need to launch another revision for our Marvel Comics characters?

I am not sure, but most likely we would have to consider it as outliers in most cases. However, I personally think that it is likely more accurate to use your approach of a combined 5-B, 3-C, and 2-C tiering instead, given the sheer inconsistency of the character. It would be complicated to investigate, evaluate, organise, and apply though, so you and others would need to invest quite a lot of work into the project.

Just mention “as Thor consistently holds back when facing non divine opponents or when on Earth, please avoid scaling people to his strength unless it meets the criteria and is consistent for that character in question”

workshop it, just make it clear we don’t scale people to top tier Heralds unless we have good reason

I disagree with re-adding Thor's 5-B Tier, but adding more explanations is never too much, having a few words on how he holds back, (both "when" and "why", I guess) on the AP section (specially) and some notes would be rather useful to avoid some scaling confusion coming from others

Agreed. Thor, Surfer, Hercules, etc. should not have 5-B stats, and the characters that are 5-B for scaling to them should just get new justifications/scale to someone else.

I’m perfectly fine with that.

I'm certain that this is a very unwise decision. It is our job to portray something that is so consistent for a character in its profile, to not do so is omit information. For other characters that scale to Thor at that stat it's true that they do so, to dismiss that information is to again omit information. We have no good reason for this, "it's too long and it would look ugly" or "it makes them look weak" would both be petty reasons. Hellbeast's idea to cover this on a note is dysfunctional as it doesn't cover the matter properly like the explanation in his AP would, any random person reading that would be justifiably unsatisfied and still think that characters that scaled to a 5-B Thor scaled to a 3-C Thor, if not to bring the idea to the wiki then in their mind partially to a big degree, as they're missing up lots of context, and profiles that link into his profile can't be sent to look into a note below.

This is a terrible idea and nothing justifies it, not the first reasons, the backup reasons nor this new ones.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that Eficiente makes very good sense above, and would prefer his approach, but most others here seem to be against this solution.

 

[Eseseso]

Efi makes sense.

 

[LordTracer]

It is our job to portray something that is so consistent for a character in its profile, to not do so is omit information.

We aren’t omitting information. The profiles acknowledge that Thor, Surfer and the others hold back. Assuming that they always hold back to the exact same level against every random person that fights them is, quite frankly, headcanon.

We have no good reason for this, "it's too long and it would look ugly" or "it makes them look weak" would both be petty reasons.

Good thing that literally nobody used this reasoning.

any random person reading that would be justifiably unsatisfied and still think that characters that scaled to a 5-B Thor scaled to a 3-C Thor

Maybe that’s how you think, but you can’t assume that every random person that visits the page would think the same way. There are standards in place to determine if a character can scale to 3-C for fighting Thor, Surfer, Hercules, etc. These standards are listed on the character pages. If someone wants a character to scale to 3-C, they should be expected to actually read those standards.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

More than that, they need a CRT to make any upgrade, so even if they fail to properly read the standards and notes, we would just alert them if a CRT is made. No real need to worry so much on this

Thing is, there is no 5-B Thor, there is a 3-C character that holds back, ending with variable power when doing so, that never was enough to warrant a special rating and it shouldn't be now that it will. People who scales to "5-B" Thor should be revised

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with LordTracer and Lightning_XXI

 

[Eficiente]

We aren’t omitting information. The profiles acknowledge that Thor, Surfer and the others hold back. Assuming that they always hold back to the exact same level against every random person that fights them is, quite frankly, headcanon.

We are omitting information by not making a stat that is immensely consistent not be where it should be, in the AP, SS and Durability of a profile, the profiles play by their own rules by not doing that because some people think that's just as good.

The second sentence isn't acknowledging what I said before:

That reason is not functional. Every stat of every comic character like Thor isn't saying they're at the "exact same level against everyone", it depends on context the the stat portrays what's most consistent. Thor had that stat against a Hulk on that level, Loki, Wrecker, the Thing, Dr. Doom, Namor, Super Skrull and the High Evolutionary (and Magneto, I'm pretty sure), there is literally no way this isn't something that shouldn't be reflected in his profile. Not to mention that those characters have their own feats and scaling that Thor is a "small" part of for their 5-B stat to be consistent, and we need to see progressively if 5-B is truely consistent or something lower or higher should replace it based on all the information about it we have.

The explanations for his stats could simply say pretty much "However, Thor doesn't obligatorily always hold back at the exact same level, and can reach higher or lower levels if he wants to without reaching his standard stats"

Also one of the scans that state that he holds back say that when he does so he uses "a third of his power", and while it's not a literal a third if we do math exactly, that can very much be taken in as him using the exact same level against everyone, even if you ignore all the scaling.

So, ignoring how I disagree, what does "adjust" mean in this context? They still scale to Thor, but Thor doesn't have the stat they scale to. Are you saying that it was an outlier for them to scale to Thor or something else?

How the hell is it a headcanon when we can pinpoint that he uses that exact same level against Hulk, Loki, Wrecker, the Thing, Dr. Doom, Namor, Super Skrull, the High Evolutionary, and Magneto (Attacking his force field and getting affected by his powers)? Clearly when he holds back he does so at this level unless the comic proves otherwise. Meaning, anyone wanting to make a profile that scales to a held-back Thor would scale it to 5-B.

This consistency is not a headcanon, that's not what a headcanon is, a headcanon is saying made up stuff that comes out nobody and isn't intuitive by what the story implies. You just say it's a headcanon because you are unsatisfied with the idea of 5-B Thor when holding back, but you didn't give any valid reason for it.

Good thing that literally nobody used this reasoning.

Never said they did, just suspected it could potentially be in some people's mind, and if so that's to be discarded.

Maybe that’s how you think, but you can’t assume that every random person that visits the page would think the same way. There are standards in place to determine if a character can scale to 3-C for fighting Thor, Surfer, Hercules, etc. These standards are listed on the character pages. If someone wants a character to scale to 3-C, they should be expected to actually read those standards.

I have seen for experience many times that people's way to read our profiles can be very, very casual and full of errors, even when they need to research things. Idk what you expect by putting into question how I see people seeing our profiles, I'm very confident about it.

Regardless of that, even if we didn't care about the average person looking at the profile; The place of the page where that should start saying that are the reasonings for AP, SS and Durability, as with any other profile, because that's the most competent way to explain how the character's stats behave. There is no reason as to why that should all be below.

More than that, they need a CRT to make any upgrade, so even if they fail to properly read the standards and notes, we would just alert them if a CRT is made. No real need to worry so much on this

Thing is, there is no 5-B Thor, there is a 3-C character that holds back, ending with variable power when doing so, that never was enough to warrant a special rating and it shouldn't be now that it will. People who scales to "5-B" Thor should be revised

So you agree that people can misunderstand this after seeing the profile? I feel like the point of people seeing the profile is gonna end up in "It doesn't matter what they think, only what the profiles truely say".

I want you and LordTracer to show 10 examples of Thor holding back while also not being 5-B against other characters, just like I showed that he's 5-B against 10 characters that he even fought a few to dozens of times. It shouldn't even prove anything, given how outnumbered that still is, but I want to see this claim being somewhat backed up by real evidence rather than words saying the same 3 times in a row.

 

[LordTracer]

Hulk

A character that also reaches 3-C and 2-C, and we literally scale him to Thor at that level.

Loki

All of the 5-B feats on his profile are casual, and he’s physically contended with 3-C Thor and other 3-Cs multiple times. In Journey into Mystery #108, he is merely dazed by a punch from Thor that is stated twice to be his full power. In Thor #353, he takes a blast from Surtur and is perfectly fine a few pages later. In Thor #153, Loki states that his strength is nearly equal to Thor’s. I can go on.

Wrecker

Doesn’t even have a profile.

the Thing, Dr. Doom, Namor, Super Skrull, the High Evolutionary

Do you expect me to just take your word for it, or are you actually going to provide scans of these fights so they can be evaluated?

Magneto (Attacking his force field and getting affected by his powers)

Assuming you’re referring to their fight in Journey Into Mystery #109, Magneto did literally nothing to Thor outside of throwing him back and repelling Mjolnir with magnetism, neither of which is grounds for AP or durability scaling. Magneto is even shown to be in awe of his power in that scan, so Thor’s clearly above him and therefore not limited to 5-B even while holding back.

You just say it's a headcanon because you are unsatisfied with the idea of 5-B Thor when holding back, but you didn't give any valid reason for it.

Appeal to motive doesn’t help your argument, Efi.

I want you and LordTracer to show 10 examples of Thor holding back while also not being 5-B against other characters, just like I showed that he's 5-B against 10 characters that he even fought a few to dozens of times.

You also didn’t give scans for literally any of them, you just listed the characters and expect us to take your word for it.

• Thor has held back to the point where his attacks don’t harm Wolverine (Wolverine vs. Thor #2)
• Man-Beast, someone who has been harmed by Spider-Man (Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #15), could take hits from a holding back Thor and grapple him (Thor Vol. 1 #135)
• Grey Gargoyle, an 8-C, has tanked hits from Thor (Journey into Mystery Vol. 1 #113) because of Thor holding back, despite consistently being harmed by 8-Cs and getting effortlessly harmed by 5-Bs, as his page notes.
• Thor specifically holds back to avoid harming Daredevil (Daredevil Vol. 1 #30). Obviously, he wouldn’t be holding back to 5-B when he’s trying not to harm a 9-B.

Thor can hold back to whatever level he wants or needs to, he doesn’t just snap to 5-B every time he pulls his punches.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm certain that this is a very unwise decision. It is our job to portray something that is so consistent for a character in its profile, to not do so is omit information. For other characters that scale to Thor at that stat it's true that they do so, to dismiss that information is to again omit information. We have no good reason for this, "it's too long and it would look ugly" or "it makes them look weak" would both be petty reasons. Hellbeast's idea to cover this on a note is dysfunctional as it doesn't cover the matter properly like the explanation in his AP would, any random person reading that would be justifiably unsatisfied and still think that characters that scaled to a 5-B Thor scaled to a 3-C Thor, if not to bring the idea to the wiki then in their mind partially to a big degree, as they're missing up lots of context, and profiles that link into his profile can't be sent to look into a note below.

This is a terrible idea and nothing justifies it, not the first reasons, the backup reasons nor this new ones.

How is it dysfunctional? It’s what we do in similar instances and if anyone thinks “hey Thing should scale to Thor” that’s on them for failing to read the note and the mention in the “notable tactics” section

whats “dysfunctional” to me is how we assume he’s always holding back to the same degree and that we’ve needlessly bloated the AP section with a lower tier despite the fact that, aside from holding back, Thor has no power mechanism that would require indexing lower levels of power

more frankly ugly and takes up more space then it requires. It’s also the only case of us specifically noting a characters held back power levels without using an actual “varied power level” mechanism as further justification. Simply put the note, it’s simpler and already abundantly apparent within the page’s confines, the “confusion” argument is also the only reason I’ve seen suggested to do this compared to the two or three reasons not to

 

[Hellbeast]

We are omitting information by not making a stat that is immensely consistent not be where it should be, in the AP, SS and Durability of a profile, the profiles play by their own rules by not doing that because some people think that's just as good.

How is that playing by their own rules? We’re doing that currently by indexing a held back power level as if it’s grounds for a varied rating. Outside of the Marvel verse, I can’t name another instance of us doing this, let alone on this scale

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, we have a system, Varies is reserved for characters who have an actual, genuine reason to vary in tier, instead of just "Oh they hold back!", I know you'll say it Efi, but this is the worst attempt at trying to dodge the fact the Marvel profiles right now ARE basically varies files I've ever seen.

 

[Excellence616]

Wasn't Hyperion part of those that will be upgraded to 2-C?

 

[Antvasima]

More than that, they need a CRT to make any upgrade, so even if they fail to properly read the standards and notes, we would just alert them if a CRT is made. No real need to worry so much on this

Thing is, there is no 5-B Thor, there is a 3-C character that holds back, ending with variable power when doing so, that never was enough to warrant a special rating and it shouldn't be now that it will. People who scales to "5-B" Thor should be revised

Okay then.

Did we already add 5-B scaling footnotes to Thor, the Silver Surfer, Hercules, the Sentry, and similar characters?

 

[KLOL506]

I am still in firm agreement with LordTracer, Hellbeast, Lightning and DaReaperMan over adding 5-B "holding back" keys to Thor, they explained it better than I could.

 

[Antvasima]

Wasn't Hyperion part of those that will be upgraded to 2-C?

Yes, and he even has a feat on that level, so he should definitely be upgraded.

However, he should probably get an "3-C while holding back, 2-C at his peak" rating like the others.

 

[Antvasima]

I am still in firm agreement with LordTracer, Hellbeast, Lightning and DaReaperMan over adding 5-B "holding back" keys to Thor, they explained it better than I could.

Well, we still need proper footnote explanations about not scaling characters that have otherwise been displayed as far weaker to 3-C or 2-C characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, just a note that Thor being unable to break Magneto's force field was in the original Avengers versus X-Men series, and I also recall Thor fighting the Thing, Doctor Doom, Namor, the Super Skrull, and the High Evolutionary.

 

[Excellence616]

Yes, and he even has a feat on that level, so he should definitely be upgraded.

However, he should probably get an "3-C while holding back, 2-C at his peak" rating like the others.

Yeah. Agreed

 

[Excellence616]

Should probably add his surviving the destruction of two universes to his durability.

 

[LordTracer]

Well, we still need proper footnote explanations about not scaling characters that have otherwise been displayed as far weaker to 3-C or 2-C characters.

Thor already has this. Silver Surfer, Hercules and Beta Ray Bill‘s pages link to the criteria on the verse page.

 

[Excellence616]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Should probably add his surviving the destruction of two universes to his durability.

Yes. Is somebody here willing to handle it please?

 

[Antvasima]

Thor already has this. Silver Surfer, Hercules and Beta Ray Bill‘s pages link to the criteria on the verse page.

Thank you for the information. I adjusted the footnote text a bit.

The following text should probably be added to the footnote sections of our profile pages for most of the similarly powerful Marvel Comics characters:

* Additionally, there are special standards to be followed when scaling other characters to him, as listed in our [[Marvel Comics]] verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, can somebody please remind us regarding what else that we currently need to do here?

 

[Eficiente]

A character that also reaches 3-C and 2-C, and we literally scale him to Thor at that level.

Hulk and Thor have fought while being 5-B many times, if not most of the time;

• Odin told Bruce Banner that Thor often holds back displaying the sheer scope of Mjolnir's power, and Odin wasn't sure if Bruce would believe him. Beta Ray Bill stated that Hulk never fought the real Thor, that in the past when they fought it was against the Avenger Thor, a humble and noble Thor, and that the reason why he was cast down on Earth was to learn humility, honor & to wild his power with mercy
  • That has some degree of gaslighting as they have fought without holding back, but it is very much true that they fought many times as a Hulk not angry enough to be 3-C or 2-C and Thor holding back.
• From the video we see to scale them: 1º fight; they're not going all out, Namor is on par with them and Hulk is moments away from turning into Bruce. 2º fight; they're on par on with the 3 FF who are 5-B. I read the comic and Hulk was pretty casual, getting more angry and stronger many times across the story, so he didn't start at his peak. 3º fight; they had no reason to go all out and Namor (5-B) was shown to be comparable. 5º fight; pretty casual, they fight for little reason, Thor doesn't want to kill Hulk due to him being Bruce, and they use the environment on each other. 6º fight; no reason why they would be going all out, Hulk is trying to rescue Thor and an old Iron Man suit can tag Thor mid-fight w/o being able to harm him. 10º fight; Each say that they're holding back and that was their plain, as it says in the video. 12º fight; As the video shows, Thor clearly doesn't want to fight and Hulk throws environment at him, an old Iron Man suit comes in mid-fight to stop them by tagging them w/o being able to harm them. 13º fight; an unremarkable battle where they were on par with the Thing (5-B). (It's later revealed that this is a fake Thor, but this is the real Thing and Hulk at 5-B). 14º Hulk later defeats that 5-B fake Thor. 15º fight; Well, given the environment used and notably the mountain being dropped on Thor doing damage to him and putting him out of the fight for a while (The mountain just fell on him, it was used as a weapon by Hulk), they likely weren't at their best. 16º fight; Thor fights for hours against the Thing (5-B) and Hulk at once, by the end he kills them both while they're close to each other. The Thing was most likely even to them. 20º fight; As the video says, Thor lost his cool and nearly killed Hulk. This would imply that in at least some other cases they fought Thor was more in control of himself (Hulk and Thor at their best are even, Hulk isn't at risk of being nearly killed like that. This was most likely a 5-B Hulk thinking he's going up against a 5-BThor,).
  • I counted 23 fights in total. Of the ones I didn't show above it's either because it's too vague, saying that they have no reason to go all out would be repetitive, or they were very much going all out. It's a mix of that.

So, Thor and Hulk fought many times, sometimes as 5-B, sometimes at 3-C/2-C, if we only portray the latter in our profiles we are omitting information of all the times they fought as 5-B (Which I find clear is most of the time, but let's just say it's a notable amount of times in total). Case in point, it would seem as if you believe that all the times they fought they were 3-C/2-C based on the way you want to do things, Thor used to have a more accurate take on this rivalry but you support removing half of it.

All of the 5-B feats on his profile are casual, and he’s physically contended with 3-C Thor and other 3-Cs multiple times. In Journey into Mystery #108, he is merely dazed by a punch from Thor that is stated twice to be his full power. In Thor #353, he takes a blast from Surtur and is perfectly fine a few pages later. In Thor #153, Loki states that his strength is nearly equal to Thor’s. I can go on.

You may need to go on.

• Before the punch Loki was inconvenienced by flying big chips and splinters around himself. Loki feeling the punch at full force doesn't necessarily mean that Thor hit him at full force, only that of the punch he gave, Loki felt the full force of it. The punch is only stated be be able to shatter a mountain.
• Solid.
• He boasts, Loki amped his power to an unknown degree via something he needed prep time to steal and would get him in trouble. They fought evenly twice and Thor could deal with him the first time.

Here's some anti-feats to counter that solid showing;

• Chains of Uru could restrain him until the end of time w/o Loki being able to destroy them, whereas Thor could easily gouge Uru with a finger, both feats shown in Journey into Mystery (1972)/vol 1 issue 92.
• There is that time Thor beat up Loki as a frog in Thor (1966) issue 366, later saying "I bested you as a frog! I shall best you as Thor!" which may imply he was weaker.
• In Thor: First Thunder issue 5 Thor defeats Loki by easily grabbing his arm, tying it to his hammer and throwing it to Asgard from Earth while Loki is helpless and doesn't try to fight back.
• Cyclops' Optic Blasts were able to damage and anger Loki in X-Men/Alpha-Flight issue 2.
• In X-Men Annual issue 9 Rouge with Cyclops & Nightcrawler's powers is able to blast Loki, and then beat him up with Loki needing to be saved from that (that last bit is pretty bs).

Doesn’t even have a profile.

He's the green and purple guy Thor lifts up like nothing in one of the scans we use to prove that Thor holds back, Thor holds back against him.

• Limits below 3-C and 5-B feats:
  • Full power Wrecker: He first fought evenly against a Thor that wasn't at full power (Thor #148 to 150), that same Thor fought evenly against the Thing (Fantastic Four (1961) issue 73)
  • Info: Later he got other dudes at his same level called the Wrecking Crew, they were regular people whom Wrecker shared his same power equally, but sharing his power gives them be less power than how Wrecker would be if he had all the power himself. I'm certain that a full power Wrecker and each of the Wrecking Crew share the same tier though.
  • Wrecking Crew: They could have been killed by Ultron at the start of Secret Wars.
  • Wrecking Crew: Later Dr. Doom remade Ultron to keep them in check & be their leader, saying how they could not survive his attacks nor destroy his body.
  • Wrecking Crew: At one point Colossus beats them up but Wrecker himself gets a hit on him and tells his team to kill him before he kills them, Colossus needing to be saved by Cyclops' Optic Blast harming everyone there (It also harmed a Dr. Ock that survived that, which is bs).
  • Full power Wrecker: Fights evenly against the Thing (Fantastic Four (1961) issue 355)
  • Info: A handbook implies that the weakness of lowing his stats when sharing his power doesn't apply anymore. The Marvel Database claims this comes from a comic where he learned more about it among other things, which happened, but the comic itself doesn't state that he lost the weakness. Either way, it's never talked about again by characters in the comics.
  • Wrecking Crew: Wrecker and some of his crew fight evenly against the Thing, She-Hulk, and a giant Ant-Man (Scott Lang) (5-B), the latter said out load his care not to kill them, so it would make less sense than usual for She-Hulk to go all out. (Fantastic Four (2014) issue 4)
• 5-B showings:
  • He has strangled Blob (Avengers: Death Trap, The Vault Vol 1 1), whom we have as 5-B in Hulk's profile.
• Thor:
  • I didn't add a lot of fights against Thor across his career.

I can guarantee he's not lower than 5-B, but he's also not higher, be it at his peak or with his powers shared. He's exactly 5-B.

Honestly, I didn't use the 3 characters of his crew and Absorbing Man because I wasn't as familiar with them, but all of his crew are very much 5-B too.

Do you expect me to just take your word for it, or are you actually going to provide scans of these fights so they can be evaluated?

Good of a time as any to say this; this comment and the last have a small unnecessary edge to them. It's minor but just as unnecessary. Have some consideration, there are too many Marvel threads going on and in a better version of the wiki, that rule for 1 CRT per verse they're cooking up would already be applied. I wasn't aware that they removed this because this thread's too long and the OP has nothing, which could have been dealt with but that didn't happen. If I or anyone had to make a thread to remove something from a comic profile notable users would be called to see if they can back up context or new info on that, to see if it truely needs to be removed. I didn't came in time, that's too bad, I point out consistency based on what the profile used to say, you ignored it, I quoted my comment, don't be a bit of a dick about the information I'm saying. I clearly expect the standard thing to expect here; either you take my word, you do rearch on your own, or I point it out myself, which I'm gonna do now, and if you wanted the latter thing to happen you could have just asked it like normal saying "Can you source those cases?" or something.

the Thing

3 times. The Hulk stuff above has 2 cases where he's shown to be even with (the real) Thor along with Hulk. In Thor (1966) issue 485 Thing gets morality haxed into wanting to kill Thor and Sif, he fights evenly against Thor and then fights Thor and Sif at once, who eventually defeat him. Thor says at one point that he didn't throw his hammer as hard as he could have whereas Thing is going all out.

Dr. Doom

Around 2 times. In Thor (1966) issue 183 they fought evenly. Doom was willing to destroy cities but Thor didn't care to deal with him beyond destroying the machines that could do that, and then flew away from his country (This is not portrayed this way by the comic, Thor doesn't say "I'm holding back" or "I refuse to kill this man" even if he is holding back). In Secret Wars Doom defended himself from Thor's lightning with a forcefield, his reactions and durability of the forcefield scaling. Doom didn't fight Thor himself and sent Ultron to attack with a hax, Thor doesn't fight too much and runs away at the end. Not out of fear or anything, he just didn't feel like fighting. In Thor (2007) issue 605 they have a fight, Doom scales to Thor in it but Thor has the upper hand.

Namor

5 times. 2 are already shown above in the Hulk stuff. In The Invaders (1975) issue 33 they have a very short battle, Namor harms him once and Thor knocks him. In Thor (2018) issue 1 they start a fight off-panel, seem even in 1 page, and finish the battle off-panel. Namor was going all out, Thor most likely took the thing for fun. In Avengers (2018) #9 Namor seems to have stalemated all the Avengers, with Thor having tried to hit him with his hammer and Namor having just grabbed it; He even says that the hammer isn't what it used to, but Thor's own power should have been all the same.

Super Skrull

2 times. In Thor (1966) issue 142 they fight evenly, Thor comments on how he's a threat to the human race and to himself when he uses his Nova Flames, which is so strong the Human Tourch never used it like that as it could destroy the planet. Thor wins at the end and banishes him away from the planet like a balloon. In Thor (1966) issue 465 they fight evenly but Thor wins.

the High Evolutionary

2 times that are in his profile. He harmed him once. And in another time he knocks him in 1 attack but it clearly wasn't Thor at his best.

,Assuming you’re referring to their fight in Journey Into Mystery #109, Magneto did literally nothing to Thor outside of throwing him back and repelling Mjolnir with magnetism, neither of which is grounds for AP or durability scaling. Magneto is even shown to be in awe of his power in that scan, so Thor’s clearly above him and therefore not limited to 5-B even while holding back.

The way he throws Thor (the pose Thor does when being thrown back) shows that he's affected in a way that would get to his durability, meaning that Magneto's powers scale to it. Underwhelming as it might be. How is overpowering the force of Mjolnir's movement not something that scales? Isn't Mjolnir flying around at any speed the equivalent of someone walking/running around? Thor is above him, but his forcefield still took blows from Thor and would have lasted seconds more before being destroyed as Magneto says. That last showcase is the most solid.

(The) X-Men vs (the) Avengers Vol 1 issue 2: Thor and She-Hulk attack a Mags with his magnetic fields up, they don't achieve anything and Mags claims that physical force cannot break his fields.

Appeal to motive doesn’t help your argument, Efi.

That I think you didn't give any valid reason for it doesn't mean you didn't give reasons. I take as valid for me to say the equivalent of "maybe it's for this motive" because it's that strong to have what I argue be called a headcanon, because you don't agreeing with me doesn't mean that I didn't give reasons and can keep on giving reasons.

You also didn’t give scans for literally any of them, you just listed the characters and expect us to take your word for it.

• Thor has held back to the point where his attacks don’t harm Wolverine (Wolverine vs. Thor #2)
• Man-Beast, someone who has been harmed by Spider-Man (Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #15), could take hits from a holding back Thor and grapple him (Thor Vol. 1 #135)
• Grey Gargoyle, an 8-C, has tanked hits from Thor (Journey into Mystery Vol. 1 #113) because of Thor holding back, despite consistently being harmed by 8-Cs and getting effortlessly harmed by 5-Bs, as his page notes.
• Thor specifically holds back to avoid harming Daredevil (Daredevil Vol. 1 #30). Obviously, he wouldn’t be holding back to 5-B when he’s trying not to harm a 9-B.

Thor can hold back to whatever level he wants or needs to, he doesn’t just snap to 5-B every time he pulls his punches.

That first sentence is telling of the thread; Did nobody notice Thor's 5-B stat pointed out all those characters (minus Magneto)? If they did, did nobody put into question those showings by asking for sources & stuff?

All very well for those showings, but with Thor being a comicbook character with dozens of years of history, the amount of showings he has on lower levels than 5-B is super underwhelming. To state again what I argue, Thor holding back is 5-B more often than not, but he can be weaker or stronger than that if he wants to, and this is to the degree that his profile should show 5-B stats.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for doing such a thorough work when evaluating this thread, Eficiente.

 

[Eficiente]

How is it dysfunctional? It’s what we do in similar instances and if anyone thinks “hey Thing should scale to Thor” that’s on them for failing to read the note and the mention in the “notable tactics” section

whats “dysfunctional” to me is how we assume he’s always holding back to the same degree and that we’ve needlessly bloated the AP section with a lower tier despite the fact that, aside from holding back, Thor has no power mechanism that would require indexing lower levels of power

more frankly ugly and takes up more space then it requires.

That's not in "notable tactics" anymore. Similar instances may refer to characters with far less history and who aren't consistently at a certain lower stat. If other characters are only occasionally at a lower tier due to holding back or something then sure, it's worth not making a stat out of and note it below in their profiles. Thor being 5-B is too predominant in his career and in a way that other characters scale to that, and thus needs to be portrayed in his profile. It is dysfunctional to link his profile in the 5-B scaling and have to read below everything to find the stats that others are scaling from. It is dysfunctional because a note doesn't say the same that his AP would, which shows anyone reading why he's 5-B due to how consistent it is. Unless you put in the note around the same explanation his 5-B AP would have (like pointing out all those he fought at that level), at which point it's the same as if Thor had that 5-B stat but hidden and playing by its own rules. That would at least be far more reasonable, if still inappropriate.

I believe I used “dysfunctional” pretty accurately there. That you don't agree with how consistent that 5-B is just means you need to see more proof of it, not that it's an idea that we are assuming that doesn't function. It would be even more correct with a power mechanism, yes, but that he lacks that it's a neutral point that doesn't apport.

I point out here how "it's too long and it would look ugly" would be a petty reason, just in case anyone had it in mind, I got called out on it because nobody said so out load, and yet you say "more frankly ugly and takes up more space then it requires" as one of your reasons. It doesn't become ok to use because it's not your full reasoning.

It’s also the only case of us specifically noting a characters held back power levels without using an actual “varied power level” mechanism as further justification.

We’re doing that currently by indexing a held back power level as if it’s grounds for a varied rating.

He can control his own stats and is even able to be weaker if he wants to, what fundamental difference do you think there is between that and some mechanic that does the same by changing his stats like he does and deciding when to do so like he does?

Yes, we have a system, Varies is reserved for characters who have an actual, genuine reason to vary in tier, instead of just "Oh they hold back!", I know you'll say it Efi, but this is the worst attempt at trying to dodge the fact the Marvel profiles right now ARE basically varies files I've ever seen.

I didn't say he should have a Varies, I pointed out the consistency of his 5-B stat when he holds back as something that should be reflected. Idk what that last part even means in terms of how it affects me.

However, he should probably get an "3-C while holding back, 2-C at his peak" rating like the others.

A Hyperion holding back was affected by a 5-B blast from the High Evolutionary. The 3-C characters like Thor have it "normally", as in "not holding back, his normal power" rather than "the normal portray you would see them in a random day". I still don't like how unintuitive we name or don't name stats like this. It's such an easy fix, we just have to start their stats quickly saying what do they refer to.

Should probably add his surviving the destruction of two universes to his durability.

I disagree for the reasons I gave before to this. Feats that are below the tiers we give to the characters should be in a Feats section, not misleadingly in the explanation of why they have a higher tier.

 

[Antvasima]

But Hyperion survived the point blank collission and resulting destruction of two universal space-time continuums. That seems like a 2-C feat to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, can somebody please remind us regarding what else that we currently need to do here?

Aren't there a lot of people who the sandbox says scale to 2-C that haven't been changed yet?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, yes.

Would you be willing to investigate the sandbox and evaluate which of the listed characters that should scale to which tiers please, Eficiente?