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How exactly is Doctor Doom related to this thread?
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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
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See here.
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That really doesn’t give a whole lot of context. What about his 3-C stuff needs to be edited?
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It was about his tech/prep Tier wasn't ? Honestly at this point maybe a separate thread for Doom could be a better way to revise him
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If the PC Doombots are not standard for 616 Doom due to not being from the 616 Universe we simply remove it.
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It would certainly make more sense for it to have its own CRT.
Excellence616
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yeah, i agree
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I was busy with other stuff, but now I'm ready to retake this messy thread.
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That was pretty underwhelming to remove all the 5-B scaling there was. That was rushed.
I'm open to keep on arguing this. If anyone feels like those bullet points aren't an accurate portrayal of this then they can elaborate why, as they should have done before. Again, I already know that some users don't want that held-back stat, meaning that that on its own is redundant.
Ok you say that, but don't cover at all any of the reasons I gave to cover the topic. I already know that everyone who wants that wants that, but they give nothing to give further value on that opinion.
This was wrong before in the sense that I pointed out but it's even more wrong now that I pointed out here and here that "3-C normally, 2-C at peak" is nonsense as it refers to 1 thing. You can keep saying that they're like varies files all you want to defend your position, it sounds neat and it's hard to talk about due to being super vague, but it's wrong. I can break this down further if you yourself elaborate the meaning behind how Heralds are like a having a Variable tier by portraying just 2 states they're in. Or you could argue the matter on its own w/o needing to draw that comparison to discredit it.
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That was pretty underwhelming to remove all the 5-B scaling there was. That was rushed.
I went over this. Statistically, in ways we can measure, this happens too little times to matter, and Thor has the ability to control his stats to justify it, which is not the same as the fact that most of the time he holds back he's 5-B.
There was no reason to dismiss me there. Let me remind the information we have and don't have so far:
- Thor holds back most of the time as proven by feats and statements explicitly saying that
- We, a wiki that indexes characters, don't give a value on the stat Thor shows while holding back due to being too inconsistent
- It's proven that more often than not Thor's 5-B when holding back, in a way we can measure that is very, very consistent
- Due to this, the argument of "why would he often hold back at the same level" is nonsense
- The lesser times Thor showed lower stats than that are justified by his ability to control his stats and statement on how he lowers them against foes of lesser power. And this in turn has nothing to do with the stats a held-back Thor would use against random foes and how that can be measured.
I'm open to keep on arguing this. If anyone feels like those bullet points aren't an accurate portrayal of this then they can elaborate why, as they should have done before. Again, I already know that some users don't want that held-back stat, meaning that that on its own is redundant.
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Would you be willing to create a well-reasoned new revision thread with a coherent plan, and then link to it here please, Eficiente? This one has turned too long to receive almost any attention at this point.
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At this point, I’ve lost interest in this, so I’m just gonna summarize my thoughts.
I don’t agree with holding back keys, nor do I agree with giving them one solid tier, and I especially don’t agree that we should be handing out 5-B ratings to someone just because they fought Thor on Earth.
The notes on the character pages, as well as the verse page, that explains the standards for scaling to Thor, Surfer, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill, etc. is perfectly sufficient.
I don’t agree with holding back keys, nor do I agree with giving them one solid tier, and I especially don’t agree that we should be handing out 5-B ratings to someone just because they fought Thor on Earth.
The notes on the character pages, as well as the verse page, that explains the standards for scaling to Thor, Surfer, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill, etc. is perfectly sufficient.
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At this point we are just having to repeat ourselves, but I don't really mind
Agree with Lord Tracer, adding "holding back" keys is wrong in every way: it's against the rules, ignores all other notes and explanations about their scaling, assuming they aren't enough, ignores Thor's variable power when holding back, with multiple feats/scaling lower than 5-B, and pretends that scaling people to that variable power is about accuracy and consistency when it's massively arbitrary
Agree with Lord Tracer, adding "holding back" keys is wrong in every way: it's against the rules, ignores all other notes and explanations about their scaling, assuming they aren't enough, ignores Thor's variable power when holding back, with multiple feats/scaling lower than 5-B, and pretends that scaling people to that variable power is about accuracy and consistency when it's massively arbitrary
Excellence616
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Yes, there is no need for any follow-up discussion thread.
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Hmm. The problem is that Eficiente is usually a very rational staff member who does a lot of research and has been of great help to me over the years, so it seems very inappropriate of me to not at least give him a chance to argue for his case in a new thread.
Excellence616
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We should just wait for him for now.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'm currently working on compiling an ability restructuring revision for Thor, Hulk, and Doctor Doom, but it's coming along too slowly to be suitable for this thread. I'll make a new CRT later.
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I think I would like to add Thanos' fight with Odin as part of the justification for 2-C Thanos
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Pretty sure there was a 2-A Thanos thread that used the Odin fight as one of Thano's 2-A feats.
IMO it was legit but unfortunately it was never approved.
Here it is: https://vsbattles.com/threads/thanos-ctr-marvel-comics.113981/
IMO it was legit but unfortunately it was never approved.
Here it is: https://vsbattles.com/threads/thanos-ctr-marvel-comics.113981/
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Well, all that Thanos and Odin actually did was some minor property damage, not anything remotely approaching Odin's fight with Seth for example, and in Starlin's stories the Infinity Gauntlet is strictly portrayed as tier Low 2-C, but was still overwhelmingly superior to all other universal cosmic entities combined. Also, the Silver Surfer had to push himself to his limits just to destroy a moon in the Infinity Crusade. Starlin has no idea about just how powerful other writers portray the Marvel Comics characters, nor does he care, as he is an extreme egotist.
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I think the Odin fight can be added, in the fight Odin straight up compares his power reserve to Thanos'. Their fight also was tearing apart Asgard, though you can probably just interpret this as the Kingdom instead of the whole space.
Thanos has also threatened an Out of Realm Mephisto (up to 2-C), and made him run away (Infinity Crusade #6). Thanos was also confident he could defeat Mephisto, and Warlock even implied he could follow Mephisto into this realm and squash him, though these are from Infinity Finale, which I'm not sure we see as canon. Thanos also defeated Kosmos (Thanos #10), and while I know we don't automatically give Cosmic Cubes tiers, Kosmos is considered to be capable of contracting the Universe in this run (Thanos #8).
I don't really feel like arguing about any of this, especially since Thanos will have the 2-C tier anyways, so just take all of this as you will.
Thanos has also threatened an Out of Realm Mephisto (up to 2-C), and made him run away (Infinity Crusade #6). Thanos was also confident he could defeat Mephisto, and Warlock even implied he could follow Mephisto into this realm and squash him, though these are from Infinity Finale, which I'm not sure we see as canon. Thanos also defeated Kosmos (Thanos #10), and while I know we don't automatically give Cosmic Cubes tiers, Kosmos is considered to be capable of contracting the Universe in this run (Thanos #8).
I don't really feel like arguing about any of this, especially since Thanos will have the 2-C tier anyways, so just take all of this as you will.
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You immediately prove otherwise by saying things that are wrong and were talked about before though:
No it isn't, in fact many profiles show 2 stats of characters with the first being what they mostly show in their story in a maybe restricted way and the second being something greater that they may be able to achive or be their true self, literally their peak at times. Again, 3-C and 2-C represent the same; their peak/not holding back, they don't switch from one and the other mid-story based on feeling like it or something.
This is wrong in 2 ways.
One thing doesn't remove the other, just because a held-back stat is added doesn't mean that all that is being ignored, if fact Thor's stat used to link that because it was important to know.
None of that is the same as the infomation the stats give, which tell all the characters at 5-B they fought, which shows the consistency of it. The explanations just show that they hold back, not at what level.
If you mean the notes and explanations not being enough then yes, and I gave reasons for it, I don't assume so.
I don't ignore it, I judged it unproven because it's unproven, I judged it that 5-B was consistent based on all the showings I posted, and I clarified how Thor's ability to control his stats isn't the same as how we use a Varies tier.
Again, I don't ignore it, I showed evidence that makes that minimum in comparison to judge that 5-B was consistent.
Again, it's not "variable power" in a way we would use it, it's in a way that is in fact about accuracy and consistency. There is nothing here for you to judge it as arbitrary, you only show that you don't like it. I can argue back anything that isn't vague feelings about this, one should be able to tell it's not hard.
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So, we're all good to move this into another thread?
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Odin's tier is "Varies from 3-C to 2-A". And given what @Ehnkr2beboh pointed out, it'll be a weird justification for 2-C since it might be suggesting that Thanos is fighting 2-A Odin
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He praises his power to then say that his is better, that is meaningless. He also threw rocks at Thanos as he said that, which Thanos called base elements, which is another bit that shows Odin's going easy.
Of course we would when the scan shows some buildings getting destroyed there, there is no "probably" here, this is clear as water.
Well, wid you read what's happening in the scans?
This is a helpless Mephisto Thanos is confident he can harm. It's not implied he would simply "follow Mephisto to his realm and squash him", but that in an unknown future Thanos would get his revenge in an unknown way (maybe w/ prep time) and in an unknown place (could be out of his realm), this tells us nothing of value.
She took a weaker form as it says there and as that small fairy can harm her also. I'm pretty sure she can choose to use her higher powers if prepared.
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As I said before I don't really want to argue about any of this, but while I wont be addressing anything Eficiente said (even though I still disagree with pretty much all of it), I do agree with what @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer pointed out, Odin varies from 3-C to 2-A, so he could really be at any of those levels, making the feat really hard to quantify. Granted I'm not sure if Odin's minimum being below Peak Thor makes sense, but as his page stands nothing there really isn't anything to support 2-C.
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I support this.
Excellence616
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Yeah me too
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Well, I do wish for it to be included somehow
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I don't mind, but I don't think we are going to see new arguments for both sides, only more members being involved and I guess that's how we are going to decide this, so yeah, a new thread for that might be the best option
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I think that Eficiente makes sense above.
It seems good to me at least.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Is there anything left to do besides this? If not, please make the new thread and lock this one.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That was me, but I already said it's coming along too slowly to be currently relevant. I'll let everyone know when I'm done, which won't be for quite a while.
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