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Well, there were lots of members, including staff, who thought that it was far too low for Thor, but I may have made a mistake in allowing the change, as we likely need it for our scaling.
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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
- Start date
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I think that we may have used it for both purposes in some profile pages.
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The reason wasn’t that it’s too low, it’s that assuming Thor is always holding back to the exact same level against everyone is illogical.
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It's a Peak level feat for Hercules so no, it'd be relegated to Hercules' 2-C AP feats collections even though technically it would be High 3-A (Assuming the heavens are infinite in size, which I think was accepted).
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Well, we would at least need to adjust the tiering justifications for the 5-B characters that are currently scaled to him.
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Yes, that is what we are currently doing, but would it be better to add it in a feats list in Hercules' page instead?
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Yes, that is true.
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That's what is probably best, given that Peak Hercules would scale to Peak Thor anyway.
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Nah, as I have already explained before, the distinction between AP and LS ceases to exist once you get to High 3-A and above. You would need to push back the object back upwards while at the same time withstand its weight without being crushed yourself.
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I would greatly appreciate help with applying this revision in practice then.
Yes, agreed.
You seem to contradict you last preceding post here, but what I meant is that High 3-A is lower than 2-C.
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Oh. I was under the impression you were saying not to put the feat as an AP feat even though it very clearly is.
I'd say to put this in the "Supporting feats" section instead of the main AP section.
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Okay. That seems fine to me.
Are any people here willing to investigate which 5-B characters that currently scale to 3-C or 2-C characters, and need to have their justifications adjusted, and also modify Hercules' page according to our agreement above?
Also, if Thor does not have a footnote yet regarding that he recurrently holds back to a 5-B level, he should probably get it, to avoid future misunderstandings.
Are any people here willing to investigate which 5-B characters that currently scale to 3-C or 2-C characters, and need to have their justifications adjusted, and also modify Hercules' page according to our agreement above?
Also, if Thor does not have a footnote yet regarding that he recurrently holds back to a 5-B level, he should probably get it, to avoid future misunderstandings.
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Ares (Marvel Comics)
Angela (Marvel Comics)
Kurse (Waziria)
Hellcat (Marvel Comics)
Sersi (Marvel Comics)
Hank Pym (Marvel Comics)
Nebula (Marvel Comics)
Iron Man Armor Model 65
Iron Man Armor Model 16
Midnight Sun (Marvel Comics)
Jane Foster (Marvel Comics)
I believe these are the only characters that have 5-B statistics exclusively from fighting a holding-back 3-C character (Thor, Silver Surfer, Hercules, etc.)
Angela (Marvel Comics)
Kurse (Waziria)
Hellcat (Marvel Comics)
Sersi (Marvel Comics)
Hank Pym (Marvel Comics)
Nebula (Marvel Comics)
Iron Man Armor Model 65
Iron Man Armor Model 16
Midnight Sun (Marvel Comics)
Jane Foster (Marvel Comics)
I believe these are the only characters that have 5-B statistics exclusively from fighting a holding-back 3-C character (Thor, Silver Surfer, Hercules, etc.)
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That reason is not functional. Every stat of every comic character like Thor isn't saying they're at the "exact same level against everyone", it depends on context the the stat portrays what's most consistent. Thor had that stat against a Hulk on that level, Loki, Wrecker, the Thing, Dr. Doom, Namor, Super Skrull and the High Evolutionary (and Magneto, I'm pretty sure), there is literally no way this isn't something that shouldn't be reflected in his profile. Not to mention that those characters have their own feats and scaling that Thor is a "small" part of for their 5-B stat to be consistent, and we need to see progressively if 5-B is truely consistent or something lower or higher should replace it based on all the information about it we have.
The explanations for his stats could simply say pretty much "However, Thor doesn't obligatorily always hold back at the exact same level, and can reach higher or lower levels if he wants to without reaching his standard stats"
Also one of the scans that state that he holds back say that when he does so he uses "a third of his power", and while it's not a literal a third if we do math exactly, that can very much be taken in as him using the exact same level against everyone, even if you ignore all the scaling.
So, ignoring how I disagree, what does "adjust" mean in this context? They still scale to Thor, but Thor doesn't have the stat they scale to. Are you saying that it was an outlier for them to scale to Thor or something else?
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I think we agreed earlier to delete her page anyway
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You’ll have to delete Malekith as well, as he gets his tier from scaling to Waziria.
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I mean, does Waziria's magic bolts even harm Thor at all? It looks like it just blasted him back a bit. And doesn't Malekith have other kinds of scaling aside of Waziria?
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Some feats here look iffy but if they've been addressed, no problem.
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Look at Malekith’s page. The only scaling he has is from Waziria (and it’s pretty baseless scaling too).
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I know, but doesn't he have others?
True. I honestly don't mind if Malekith's page gets deleted too
Hellbeast
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Also the holding back thing just means "don't scale to Thor", it doesn't at all mean we just assume an arbitrary amount of power he uses when he holds back. That's the issue, don't scale people to top tiers unless it's stated they're going outright, you can keep the info on holding back, just don't make it a separate tier to bloat the page
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,102
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Tbh doesn’t Ares have reasons to be higher up
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Thank you very much for the investigation.
Would it be sufficient to simply state that Thor recurrently holds back to a 5-B degree in the footnotes section of his page, or do we need to launch another revision for our Marvel Comics characters?
I am not sure, but most likely we would have to consider it as outliers in most cases. However, I personally think that it is likely more accurate to use your approach of a combined 5-B, 3-C, and 2-C tiering instead, given the sheer inconsistency of the character. It would be complicated to investigate, evaluate, organise, and apply though, so you and others would need to invest quite a lot of work into the project.
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Yes, it seems very unreliable.
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We may have to delete his page as well in lack of better options then.
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,102
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Just mention “as Thor consistently holds back when facing non divine opponents or when on Earth, please avoid scaling people to his strength unless it meets the criteria and is consistent for that character in question”
workshop it, just make it clear we don’t scale people to top tier Heralds unless we have good reason
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I disagree with re-adding Thor's 5-B Tier, but adding more explanations is never too much, having a few words on how he holds back, (both "when" and "why", I guess) on the AP section (specially) and some notes would be rather useful to avoid some scaling confusion coming from others
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,102
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Imo we already have a lot, just add my thing to the notes section
The page already makes it clear he holds back
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100% agree. Just scale the lower rung people to their own feats or to Hulk and Sentry if it really bothers you that much.
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,102
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Aye, go by their own feats, and for feats that they consistently scale to
If a character has scaling to four or five planetary feats then scale him there, rather then the one time he fights Thor
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,133
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Agreed.
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Agreed. Thor, Surfer, Hercules, etc. should not have 5-B stats, and the characters that are 5-B for scaling to them should just get new justifications/scale to someone else.
I’m perfectly fine with that.
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Okay. I suppose that this seems like the consensus conclusion here then. Is the above wording acceptable for me to add to the footnote section of Thor's page?
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Also I forgot to mention, Hope Summers never had her tier updated. Her 3-C should be 2-C due to scaling to 50% PF Cyclops.
Everywhereman
He/Him- 283
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I’m confused about that actually because it seems like Hope is also channeling SW chaos magic when she hit him.
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I have unlocked the page for you. Tell me here when you are done.
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Done, you can lock the page again.
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Thank you. I have done so.
So about this...
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Sure
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