Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

[ObberGobb]

Can somebody remind us regarding what needs to be evaluated here with a relatively easy to understand explanation post please?

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

 

[Antvasima]

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

@Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @LuciferX @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @VeryGoofyToddler2

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

The proposed scaling and sandbox looks reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

Looks fine.

 

[Antvasima]

We need a few staff members who are highly knowledgeable about this verse to comment as well though, for safety reasons.

Also, I think that regular Thor being given 1-A and above ratings would be great outliers.

 

[ObberGobb]

We need a few staff members who are highly knowledgeable about this verse to comment as well though, for safety reasons.

Also, I think that regular Thor being given 1-A and above ratings would be great outliers.

I don't think they are outliers. He has 5 feats of scaling to Yggdrasil, so that is very consistent, and he has at least 4 feats of scaling to Hell Lords. Like we already have base Thor scaling to High 1-A, so this is a downgrade for him.

 

[Antvasima]

The scale of Yggdrasil is very inconsistently handled between different authors though, and affecting the tree by, for example, cutting it down, and thereby causing multiversal armageddon, usually seems more like an issue of causing great effects through comparatively extremely limited force by destroying a linchpin of something far bigger.

And I definitely disagree with the High 1-A rating for Thor.

However, if you only want to modify his "inner godly life force" tier from High 1-A to 1-A, I suppose that is an improvement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

1-A to High 1-A borders are admittedly over my head, so I also agree that we should have those more input from tiering system experts before applying. Likewise, it is true for Authors to contradict each other when it comes to cosmology stuff, and the Meta Composite interpretations could be potentially dangerous.

 

[ObberGobb]

The scale of Yggdrasil is very inconsistently handled between different authors though, and affecting the tree by, for example, cutting it down, and thereby causing multiversal armageddon, usually seems more like an issue of causing great effects through comparatively extremely limited force by destroying a linchpin of something far bigger.

And I definitely disagree with the High 1-A rating for Thor.

However, if you only want to modify his "inner godly life force" tier from High 1-A to 1-A, I suppose that is an improvement.

That's basically what I want to do, I just don't really like the phrasing there. But really my main issue was with that "inner life essence" scaling him above the Living Tribunal, which is ridiculous. Mainly I just want the "inner life essence," which I think essentially functions as Thor's peak, to line up to what Skyfather Tiers scale to.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that is an improvement then.

 

[ObberGobb]

Okay. I suppose that is an improvement then.

So would you prefer the phrasing of "at peak" for 1-A, or "via his inner life-essence?" My main issue with the latter is its never really treated as a power system for Thor in-universe. But people have criticized the phrasing of "at peak" messing with Teambusters like Thanos and Ultron scaling above peak Heralds. I'm definitely not proposing that Ultron scale to 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I would much prefer that "High 1-A via inner life essence" is removed, since, as you say, it is a fanon concept, not a canon one.

I am also reluctant to allow Marvel's nonsensical system of usually allowing almost all characters to fight each other regardless of power levels to further influence our character statistics, but I agree that your solution is likely better than what we use currently.

 

[ObberGobb]

I would much prefer that "High 1-A via inner life essence" is removed, since, as you say, it is a fanon concept, not a canon one.

I am also reluctant to allow Marvel's nonsensical system of usually allowing almost all characters to fight each other regardless of power levels to further influence our character statistics, but I agree that your solution is likely better than what we use currently.

I agree with you that the "everyone can fight everyone" should not influence ratings, but I don't think that that is the case here. With Thor, it is fairly consistent that his peak is far higher than his Herald Tier peers, or that he is capable of drawing upon much more power than normal in specific situations.

Do you think that we should add a note or something to indicate that characters should not scale to Thor's 1-A, to prevent this from snowballing to all Heralds being 1-A?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with you that the "everyone can fight everyone" should not influence ratings, but I don't think that that is the case here. With Thor, it is fairly consistent that his peak is far higher than his Herald Tier peers, or that he is capable of drawing upon much more power than normal in specific situations.

Do you think that we should add a note or something to indicate that characters should not scale to Thor's 1-A, to prevent this from snowballing to all Heralds being 1-A?

That seems like a very good idea, yes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah, I never liked Yggdrasil being that high or scaling to the Living Tribunal at least not in his Multiversal form.

The Herald debate is fine. The Thor downgrade is fine there's a fine line to draw between 1-A and High 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

If I remember correctly, Storm is also currently scaled from some unreliable feats, including Yggdrasil, so I would appreciate if somebody can take a look at that.

 

[Eseseso]

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

Looks good at a glance, will look more later today

 

[Excellence616]

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

Make sense. The only issue i have is with Hercules, as his 'lifting the heavens' feat is used to scale High 3-A heralds to Infinite LS. But i guess since we are scaling the feat to 1-A. Heralds would stop being Infinite LS
.

 

[Antvasima]

The scale of Yggdrasil is very inconsistently handled between different authors though, and affecting the tree by, for example, cutting it down, and thereby causing multiversal armageddon, usually seems more like an issue of causing great effects through comparatively extremely limited force by destroying a linchpin of something far bigger.

And I definitely disagree with the High 1-A rating for Thor.

However, if you only want to modify his "inner godly life force" tier from High 1-A to 1-A, I suppose that is an improvement.

I would much prefer that "High 1-A via inner life essence" is removed, since, as you say, it is a fanon concept, not a canon one.

I am also reluctant to allow Marvel's nonsensical system of usually allowing almost all characters to fight each other regardless of power levels to further influence our character statistics, but I agree that your solution is likely better than what we use currently.

I agree with you that the "everyone can fight everyone" should not influence ratings, but I don't think that that is the case here. With Thor, it is fairly consistent that his peak is far higher than his Herald Tier peers, or that he is capable of drawing upon much more power than normal in specific situations.

Do you think that we should add a note or something to indicate that characters should not scale to Thor's 1-A, to prevent this from snowballing to all Heralds being 1-A?

That seems like a very good idea, yes.

Yeah, I never liked Yggdrasil being that high or scaling to the Living Tribunal at least not in his Multiversal form.

The Herald debate is fine. The Thor downgrade is fine there's a fine line to draw between 1-A and High 1-A.

If I remember correctly, Storm is also currently scaled from some unreliable feats, including Yggdrasil, so I would appreciate if somebody can take a look at that.

Is anybody willing to properly analyse the reliability of this please?

 

[AndrewBennet]

Is anyboby willing to properly analyse the reliability of this please?

Agree with everything

 

[Antvasima]

I meant, is somebody willing to check through which of Storm's "High 1-A" scaling feats that should be removed?

 

[Excellence616]

I meant, is somebody willing to check through which of Storm's "High 1-A" scaling feats that should be removed?

She scales to both Yggdrasil and Dominions.

So, none. She would still be High 1-A

 

[Eseseso]

Plus Storm scales to the Adversary who might be getting an upgrade IIRC

 

[Antvasima]

The scale of Yggdrasil is very inconsistently handled between different authors though, and affecting the tree by, for example, cutting it down, and thereby causing multiversal armageddon, usually seems more like an issue of causing great effects through comparatively extremely limited force by destroying a linchpin of something far bigger.

And I definitely disagree with the High 1-A rating for Thor.

However, if you only want to modify his "inner godly life force" tier from High 1-A to 1-A, I suppose that is an improvement.

I would much prefer that "High 1-A via inner life essence" is removed, since, as you say, it is a fanon concept, not a canon one.

I am also reluctant to allow Marvel's nonsensical system of usually allowing almost all characters to fight each other regardless of power levels to further influence our character statistics, but I agree that your solution is likely better than what we use currently.

I agree with you that the "everyone can fight everyone" should not influence ratings, but I don't think that that is the case here. With Thor, it is fairly consistent that his peak is far higher than his Herald Tier peers, or that he is capable of drawing upon much more power than normal in specific situations.

Do you think that we should add a note or something to indicate that characters should not scale to Thor's 1-A, to prevent this from snowballing to all Heralds being 1-A?

That seems like a very good idea, yes.

Yeah, I never liked Yggdrasil being that high or scaling to the Living Tribunal at least not in his Multiversal form.

The Herald debate is fine. The Thor downgrade is fine there's a fine line to draw between 1-A and High 1-A.

If I remember correctly, Storm is also currently scaled from some unreliable feats, including Yggdrasil, so I would appreciate if somebody can take a look at that.

Is anybody willing to properly analyse the reliability of this please?

I meant, is somebody willing to check through which of Storm's "High 1-A" scaling feats that should be removed?

She scales to both Yggdrasil and Dominions.

So, none. She would still be High 1-A

Plus Storm scales to the Adversary who might be getting an upgrade IIRC

@VeryGoofyToddler2

What do you think about this?

The Yggdrasil feat seems very unreliable, and you mentioned that Dominions are heavily weakened outside of their home realm of Overspace, and I strongly doubt that The Adversary should truly remotely qualify for High 1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Plus Storm scales to the Adversary who might be getting an upgrade IIRC

Is there a reference for this?

 

[ObberGobb]

Is there anyone else we need to hear input from?

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members have accepted the suggested Thor revisions, and are any of you willing to help VeryGoofyToddler2 to evaluate if Storm needs to get more reliable feats to scale from as well as resulting statistics overall?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

She was pretty powerful during the Resseurction of Magneto. More interestingly an interview from the author of the Storm series hinted that the One Above All might need her help to fight one of the deadliest things in existence.

She does scale to the Adversary no doubt, but, I'm wondering about what Eseseso meant by the Adversary getting an upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

I was referring to that creating a storm to threaten the physical linchpin avatar of Yggdrasil when it was displayed at comparatively "normal" size seems extremely unreliable to scale from, and you also mentioned that the Dominions are heavily weakened outside of Overspace, so I wanted you to evaluate the feat of Storm seemingly hurting a few of them as well, including if it was an outlier.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I was referring to that creating a storm to threaten the physical linchpin avatar of Yggdrasil when it was displayed at comparatively "normal" size seems extremely unreliable to scale from, and you also mentioned that the Dominions are heavily weakened outside of Overspace, so I wanted you to evaluate the feat of Storm seemingly hurting a few of them as well, including if it was an outlier.

Yggdrasil needs a downgrade anyhow so Storm scaling to it as only a 1-A structure is more feasible than her scaling to it as a High 1-A structure. The OP tackles the issue of Yggdrasil being too high is a good point of contingency for both Storm and Thor to be downgraded. As for the Dominions, they should just be 1-A flat. I don't see how they're even a threat to the One Above All since we've often misread the message that he left during Defenders: Beyond #5.

It just seem like they're pushing every Herald tier above what they usually are. It seems that the basis of power Thor, Hulk, Storm, and Jean Grey are operating on would become the new status quo. So they're more outliers in that sense and not every Hearld would scale to 1-A simply because they do. I do see this wonky issue though since the other heralds literally exist in the same manner as Thor and Hulk. That's just how scaling is so 1-A for Yggdrasil, Thor, and Storm seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Yggdrasil needs a downgrade anyhow so Storm scaling to it as only a 1-A structure is more feasible than her scaling to it as a High 1-A structure. The OP tackles the issue of Yggdrasil being too high is a good point of contingency for both Storm and Thor to be downgraded. As for the Dominions, they should just be 1-A flat. I don't see how they're even a threat to the One Above All since we've often misread the message that he left during Defenders: Beyond #5.

It just seem like they're pushing every Herald tier above what they usually are. It seems that the basis of power Thor, Hulk, Storm, and Jean Grey are operating on would become the new status quo. So they're more outliers in that sense and not every Hearld would scale to 1-A simply because they do. I do see this wonky issue though since the other heralds literally exist in the same manner as Thor and Hulk. That's just how scaling is so 1-A for Yggdrasil, Thor, and Storm seems fine.

I meant that simply creating a storm around what was here, in this story, portrayed as merely being a big tree that happens to be a physical representative focal point for a much larger cosmological structure does not seem reliable to scale from at all. However, if Storm is reliably evaluated to genuinely scale from the Dominions and the Adversary, then so be it, even though the former at least does not make any logical sense.