Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also why are you guys treating every mention of Yggdrasil "encompassing all planes" as evidence of Low 1-A lmao. It could simply be 2-A. Or even 2-C. If the Yggdrasil encompasses all realms of Norse Mythology it's not innacurate to say it encompasses "all planes / realms".

 

[Luck100]

Also why are you guys treating every mention of Yggdrasil "encompassing all planes" as evidence of Low 1-A lmao. It could simply be 2-A. Or even 2-C. If the Yggdrasil encompasses all realms of Norse Mythology it's not innacurate to say it encompasses "all planes / realms".

But it encompasses all pantheons including the otherworld (highest dimension of eternity)

 

[Driger-God]

To who want read: Incredible Hercules #132 : "To reach your destination, you must find the great Ash Yggdrasil, The World Tree- The Norse form of Axis".

This is more interesting. I would like to see what Hykuu, PrinceOfTheMorning, and ClassicNESfan think about this.

Look at my explanation of the Axis in the past thread.

"Explanation" using only your opinion about this.
Looks like you only want to downplay everything, even using what don't exist or simply using your own opinion.
Even Hykuu, or NESfan, showed arguments, that even if I'm disagreeing, they had some base to comment. But Matthew looks like is only trying to downplay every feats, the motive of this actions aren't clear.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

He already made a detailed post about the Axis in the prior thread.

@Ant

The problem I have with the three scans you posted, in this context, is that they could just as easily refer to a 2-A structure. Or even a 2-C structure if you're of a lowballing mindset. All these scans referring to "planes" mean very little because plane almost always refers to other universes and realms - including in these stories.

That goes for the Tree dying when the last universe falls as well. Because the remnants of the main universe make up that realm, that would apply to Yggdrasil even if it were just referring to the 2C Tree.

I think the hinge of the upgrade is the whole Ginnungagap and Outside part. Currently my only real problem with that is that there was a scan posted last thread where the Ginnungagap is referred to as the void before the 9 realms' creation, not everything's creation. Even if you called that an aspect of Oblivion, it means nothing since even 2C Mikaboshi was an aspect of Oblivion.

 

[Alonik]

Also why are you guys treating every mention of Yggdrasil "encompassing all planes" as evidence of Low 1-A lmao. It could simply be 2-A. Or even 2-C. If the Yggdrasil encompasses all realms of Norse Mythology it's not innacurate to say it encompasses "all planes / realms".

That's why my thread is split into parts, showing what scales to that.

I structured yggdrasil from 2-A until possible 1-A, if you had read it wouldn't be asking redundant question.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I think the hinge of the upgrade is the whole Ginnungagap and Outside part. Currently my only real problem with that is that there was a scan posted last thread where the Ginnungagap is referred to as the void before the 9 realms' creation, not everything's creation. Even if you called that an aspect of Oblivion, it means nothing since even 2C Mikaboshi was an aspect of Oblivion.

The aspect of Oblivion is the "true" Mikaboshi, the literal void before all creation. The avatar form of Mikaboshi as a weak Japanese God is not a direct manifestation of the void, unlike the Chaos King.

 

[Luck100]

The aspect of Oblivion is the "true" Mikaboshi, the literal void before all creation. The avatar form of Mikaboshi as a weak Japanese God is not a direct manifestation of the void, unlike the Chaos King.

> Weak Japanese God that killed Zeus and half greek pantheon.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I am agreeing with you...

 

[Luck100]

One example is that many pantheons are comparable in terms of power.

Like the Norse Pantheon, Egypt, Celtic and Greek one. The Celtics gods in Marvel habits the otherworld (already discussed here) that is the top layer dimension of eternity and mikaboshi reached 98% of the multiverse when he "eat" the dimension. When Surtur tried destroy the yggdrasil it was confirmed that Yggdrasil reached these realm like any pantheon realm in Marvel.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I certainly hope you're not suggesting to rank all the gods at like Tier 1 because the Celtic Gods live in the Otherworld.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that PrinceOfTheMorning makes sense about that the 3 scans that are actually useful only show evidence for a 2-A Yggdrasil at most, and would appreciate if somebody copy-pastes Matthew's debunk of the Axis from the previous thread, in order to remind me of the contents.

The other scans have not shown any actual evidence so far, only lead to excessive speculation, as far as I am aware.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll do it:

Also worth noting that the story which introduces the concept of the Axis Mundi establishes it as being the "Center of Global Power". They explain that the Island where Atlas was condemned to stay holding the Axis became Atlantis, which was the center of the world, and that after Atlantis sank the Axis stopped being there. Eons later, the Axis Mundi would be in the united states.

The villain of the same story wants to steal the power of the Axis Mundi to remake the world in her image or whatever, and she actually frees Atlas upon doing so.

Not only do the heavens not literally fall on anyone's head, but Atlas isn't portrayed as particularly cosmically powerful in the same issue where he's freed. And in the same story we see the effects that the Power of the Axis Mundi brings, and it only affects Earth, remaking it into a female supremacist utopia in the Amazon Villain's vision to be more specific.

So yeah. I'm calling BS on the Axis Mundi being literally the Axis of the Multiverse that contains all things including the literal Norse Yggdrasil.

It's just a metaphorical central axis of power on Earth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also. Atlas, the titan who was condemned to perpetually hold up the Axis Mundi, is defeated in this same storyline by a hero flying into his crotch and punching him there.

So yeah. There's absolutely nothing cosmic beyond a planetary scale with the Axis.

Furthermore, Hercules was able to lift up the Axis in Atlas' place with relative ease. And I sure hope nobody will try to argue that Hercules can lift a multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Luck100]

Celtic gods live in the otherworld and yggdrasil reach that dimension in question it's a Yggdrasil feat. Also, Atlas was flee by the Amazons (using the Axis power (because that it doesn't come to earth)).

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Why are we wasting time discussing the Axis Mundi/World Axis? This smells like an attempt to derail the thread.

 

[Kepekley23]

Why are we wasting time discussing the Axis Mundi/World Axis? This smells like an attempt to derail the thread.

This.

The Outside/TWSAIS stuff is nearly irrefutable and it's the main crux of the arguments within this thread.

Al Ewing's blatant treatment of Yggdrasil as a multiversal embodiment, as well as the Secret Wars scans claiming the Yggdrasil embodies the entirety of the omniverse destroyed by the Beyonders, are also frankly impossible to argue against.

 

[Kepekley23]

Here is the TWSAIS treating the destruction of the entire omniverse as an insignificant story they can absorb at a moment's notice

I eagerly wait to see the rebuttals.

 

[Antvasima]

That is not what the scan or the story in question say at all. TWSAIS fed upon another final battle of the Asgardians and survived after the multiverse was destroyed. That is all that can be gained from this without subjective interpretation.

 

[Hykuu]

It literally says the death of stories affected them so much to the point where they were completely reliant on Loki as the only story they could feed on as he's a god lol, and them going to the outside means jack shit.

We have a normal ghost, surfer's human girlfriend, surfer himself, the shaper of worlds' "minion" (or whatever it was) and some nobody, etc.

Existing in the outside means absolutely nothing at all, it's literally in our tiering system existing in a 1-A realm doesn't = 1-A

 

[Kepekley23]

> survived after the multiverse was destroyed

They completely transcend the multiverse and Eternity to begin with, so yes, I guess you can call that "surviving" the multiverse's destruction.

 

[Hykuu]

>States the outside is the main point here and its what makes them transcendant

>Ant says that's not what the scan says

>Says "They transcend the multiverse" to support the scan which shows they transcend the multiverse (apparently)

smells like circular reasoning here

 

[Kepekley23]

> That is not what the scan or the story in question say at all

Yes, it is. After the multiverse is destroyed, Loki comes across the Throne of the TWSAIS. Who then proceed to state that they're final victors of the end of existence, and that they'll absorb the stories, which, as previously stated, continue to exist even after the multiverse itself is destroyed.

> That is all that can be gained from this without subjective interpretation.

You mean what the story actually said.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Hykuu. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Hykuu]

It says they only existed because "Gods" and "War" still existed at that point which was the only reason they survived, let's be real, you can't determine anything else DEFINITIVE from that scan. This is at best, type 8 immortality.

What the story says can literally be changed through subjective interpretation Kep, let's be a bit more serious here

 

[Antvasima]

If I remember correctly, they specifically fed on the Asgardians and their local Ragnarok, and asked for their essences from Loki, who kept them safe at the time. They did not feed on the destruction of the multiverse itself.

 

[Kepekley23]

> It literally says the death of stories affected them so much to the point where they were completely reliant on Loki as the only story they could feed on as he's a god lol, and them going to the outside means jack shit.

That's literally not what the scan says at all. It states the literal opposite.

"The end has come, small god. All is gone...all but the stories. The stories we feed on. That we have ever fed on. In Ragnarok, after Ragnarok."

It was previously established that stories are self-perpetuating; they continue to exist, even after the multiverse itself is completely erased from existence, and that's what the TWSAIS mean.

Loki was protecting the story of War that the TWSAIS desired to absorb, and so he had to bluff and scare them away, but the TWSAIS themselves were not affected in the slightest by the omniversal armageddon around them. They exist before, during, and after the multiverse.

 

[Luck100]

It literally says the death of stories affected them so much to the point where they were completely reliant on Loki as the only story they could feed on as he's a god lol, and them going to the outside means jack shit.
We have a normal ghost, surfer's human girlfriend, surfer himself, the shaper of worlds' "minion" (or whatever it was) and some nobody, etc.

Existing in the outside means absolutely nothing at all, it's literally in our tiering system existing in a 1-A realm doesn't = 1-A

OMG.

I already explain that. The cosmic cube herald use it power to save silver surfer and his girl (they have power cosmic). And why ghosts can't exist with loki in Obvilion ?

 

[Kepekley23]

The TWSAIS literally never "went" to the Outside. They are natural inhabitants of the realm. This has been debunked too many times at this point.

 

[Hykuu]

@Luck100

- The Cosmic Cube herald is below the Shaper of Worlds, so said power is below something which is weaker than a Cosmic Cube, and then you have the Power Cosmic


Okay, let's grant the lifebringer outside statement for a second, it would logically (but not really logically) follow the power cosmic and a weak cosmic cube > Lifebringer Galactus

Because the destruction of Multi Eternity would also encompass things such as all concepts, and obviously the astral plane, so something existing in the outside just through the nature of being intangible/non-physical would mean two things

- The feat itself means jack shit then, if it's due to inherent properties within the ghost and nothing to do with durability

- Existing in a 1-A realm isn't even 1-A in the damn tiering system, this is such a messy point to make

 

[Hykuu]

The TWSAIS literally never "went" to the Outside. They are natural inhabitants of the realm. This has been debunked too many times at this point.

Okay even if that was the case (which it isn't btw, since we literally see the background change) then why does existing in a 1-A realm mean 1-A which is literally against our tiering system to begin with? I'll wait for an explanation regarding that, ty.

 

[Luck100]

@Luck100
- The Cosmic Cube herald is below the Shaper of Worlds, so said power is below something which is weaker than a Cosmic Cube, and then you have the Power Cosmic


Okay, let's grant the lifebringer outside statement for a second, it would logically (but not really logically) follow the power cosmic and a weak cosmic cube > Lifebringer Galactus

Because the destruction of Multi Eternity would also encompass things such as all concepts, and obviously the astral plane, so something existing in the outside just through the nature of being intangible/non-physical would mean two things

- The feat itself means jack shit then, if it's due to inherent properties within the ghost and nothing to do with durability

- Existing in a 1-A realm isn't even 1-A in the damn tiering system, this is such a messy point to make

Wrong. He can use all the power of the shaper of worlds. He re-created eternity in his image.

 

[Hykuu]

No, that was surfer, not glorian, Glorian only inhertied the power after Surfer gave it away, and then lost it regardless, it was literally his plan from the moment he met surfer to steal the power. If you have read the comic, You'd know what I'm talking about, but I can drop scans if you wish

 

[Antvasima]

Okay even if that was the case (which it isn't btw, since we literally see the background change) then why does existing in a 1-A realm mean 1-A which is literally against our tiering system to begin with? I'll wait for an explanation regarding that, ty.

This is a very good point.

 

[Antvasima]

Glorian only recreated a single universe by being allowed to use the Shaper's entire essence to build it.

Edit: Sorry, I reread Hykuu's post. I seem to have misremembered.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Okay even if that was the case (which it isn't btw, since we literally see the background change

Odin literally goes to their throne on the Outside in a vision, and Loki states that their natural domain is the Outside, so it is the case. Glad we can settle this.

> why does existing in a 1-A realm mean 1-A which is literally against our tiering system to begin with? I'll wait for an explanation regarding that, ty.

They completely transcend the multiverse and the Yggdrasil.

 

[Hykuu]

"It should, on the other hand, be kept in mind that simply existing "beyond the concepts of space and time" and similar feats do not necessarily qualify one to bypass into this tier, unless the work of fiction in question leaves it very clear that a character also exists beyond all extensions of the concepts which they transcend."

Clear as day, and I don't think anyone wants to jump to some headcanon about them being the realm itself or some other cheese, so I guess we should move on from this point, is there anything actually concrete and relevant to tackle?

 

[Antvasima]

Nothing has been stated about TWSAIS transcending the entire multiverse, or at least not as far as I recall.

 

[Antvasima]

The tiering system or Outerverse page used to say that simply existing in a 1-A environment does not remotely automatically make a character into 1-A. That should preferably be reinserted.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Clear as day

That does not remotely mean what you think it means.

What that warning is saying is that transcending the concepts of space and time in verses without higher layers of existence is simply considered Low 1-C, and not automatically 1-A. This does not apply in any way to verses with entities who transcend such concepts on a Low 1-A scale.