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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)

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@Matt

if you could explain why so instead of just dismissing it would be better for the discussion, you know ?

@Ant

Don't count your chickens yet
 
It's literally in the OP, the statements are there, and they seem to have more basis than the argument for low 1-A, it's been evaluated by reading both points and seeing which in general seems more convincing, objective and concrete
 
That seems fine. I will delete the derailment.
 
Okay, I know Kepekley does have good intentions and wasn't intending to cause harm. He wasn't directly trying to attack anyone, he's mostly just super stressed about arguing in circles. He's by no means another LordAizenSama or other former Admin who's currently banned, he's however been behaving more similar to how Matthew Schroeder did back in 2017 as of late. That being said, he is being rather too assumptive regarding Antvasima's situation and should be making at least sum effort to settle down. But so should everyone, I too have been struggled to remain polite the past couple of months. We all have our own multitasks and balancing RL and Internet life together.

He also is making good points that those debating or familiar with the topic at hand should be elaborate, and that a simply kudos towards people you agree with would be a better idea than just a simple comment saying, "I agree/disagree" or "That makes sense". As that just eats up a post.
 
Hykuu said:
Also are we just gonna ignore how ginnungagap literally can't even be 1-A because things like "north" (which imply direction, I.e dimension) are literally still there? like come on, the rest is just pretty clear stretchs, I'm fine with 2-A RKT tho
Click to expand...
Those are obviously just figures of speech, unless you believe the Far Shore is not 1-A because it is stated to be the "farthest point of creation" and the likes, which would imply it is still bound by space or dimensionality, should we follow your logic.

Additionally, you can be 1-A while still retaining some notions of space and time.
 
Just a brief note that I really like several of the Marvel characters that I grew up with, including Thor. That I dislike what the current management of Marvel Comics is doing to them does not affect my dedication to accurate statistics.

That is all. We can return to the regular discussion now.
 
I still think it is very straightforward.

Ginnungagap, being the void before all creation, is by default an aspect of Oblivion. In Marvel Cosmology, every pantheon's view of reality has its own fragment/aspect of the "darkness before creation" (as Oblivion himself stated, since the Chaos King was the Japanese version of the void before all reality and he was stated to be one among infinite aspects of the entity), and Ginnungagap is blatantly meant to be one of those aspects.

House of Ideas Nyx is another example of an aspect of Oblivion that personifies the void before creation.

Odin's vision of the TWSAIS has him state that they are "outside all realities", and then in the Loki storyline we witness the TWSAIS appearing before Loki in the Outside, a 1-A realm outside all realities, which proves they naturally live in that realm.

Additionally, Loki states that the TWSAIS went back to "wherever they came from" after his bluff scares them off. Considering the fact that the multiverse had been destroyed by the Beyonders, this means the TWSAIS' realm is outside the multiverse, unless you believe they somehow managed to reenter a destroyed realm.
 
And yes, the TWSAIS might have been born out of the Asgardians' mind. But this is irrelevant and does nothing to disprove their power, since Al Ewing has established several 1-A entities who were also created/powered by worship, such as Nyx, or heck, even the One Above All himself, since his 2018 Loki storyline introduces two cosmic entities, Then and Now, who are the managers of the House of Ideas, and they claim that the One Above All is the amalgamation of every god ever worshipped by mankind, which logically means that he is powered by stories/worship, as well.
 
Again, the storyline in question did not portray existing outside of the multiverse as a particularly impressive feat. That was introduced some years later.

And I though that TOAA was the supposed gestalt entity amalgamation of all the writers, editors, and readers of Marvel Comics. Do you have a scan available for evidence?
 
I'm late here.

Matthew, you make mentions to The World Forger. The World Forger wasn't one of those who were benefited with the use of many past comics to "Ignore" current cosmology?

Hyukuu, Ginnungagap is what existed before creation, not only the "9 realms". When gods, and even Surtur and Ymir, were born to create the nine realms, this happened after that Gaia and the Demiurge were born to create everything. At this point, the "void"/nothingness is the rest of what Mikaboshi was.

Sorry, don't misinterpret, but this discussion doesn't have focus.

The point of this discussion is: Prove Yggdrasil as the "multiverse". The great part of the works that dealt with Yggdrasil in past was of make by Tom DeFalco who worked the multiverse structure like "planes" of existence and reality in Thor Comics, and in his work with Thor, he determine that Yggdrasil encompasses every plane of existence(Multiverse).

The idea of Yggdrasil as being only "Nine Realms" was beaten cross time that in comics more recent, more realms were add. And even Heimdall mock of idea of Nine Realms.

Another points in post are ambiguous, use Heimdall vision to determine what exist within Yggdrasil is meaningless, the vision of Heimdall can be influenced by higher forces than himself, in old comics, Heindall has knowledge of "levels of power in multiverse beyond the mortal imagination", and can see what exist in Negative Zone and Sub-Space About consistence across ages, this is relative and interpretative. Current Doctor Strange fight with the sames villains of classic comics, like Dormarmmu, Nightmare, and others, the representation can be affected by author to author, but the idea is the same. Exist phases where Strange is more powerful and less powerful, in both current comics and in classic comics.
 
> Again, the storyline in question did not portray existing outside of the multiverse as a particularly impressive feat. That was introduced some years later.

This is untrue. Rune King Thor's ascension into an entity capable of "seeing beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" all the way into the timeless "nothingness of Ginnungagap" was treated as an extremely big deal in the storyline.

> And I though that TOAA was the supposed gestalt entity amalgamation of all the writers, editors, and readers of Marvel Comics. Do you have a scan available for evidence?

The gods of each mythological pantheon are considered "facets" of the One Above All
 
@Kepekly "creation" as a term isn't limited to dimensionality at all, i could create something beyond all forms of time and space but such a thing would still be inconceviable of us so I have no idea why this derailed into metaphysical abstracts which we can't even percieve 1 comment in.

Also, why does being an aspect of oblivion entail 1-A?
 
I agree almost entirely with Matt after rereading the previous thread again, but I'm curious as to one thing since I haven't read Loki.

Can someone explain why being Outside is treated as a feat via Lifebringer Galactus scaling when Loki can exist and protect a normal spirit there as well? Is God of Stories Loki actually portrayed as an abstract-level being?
 
God of Stories Loki's power is more or less metaphorical in nature, considering he is, well, the god of stories and Marvel Cosmology is shaped by said stories. This is even pointed out in the 2018 Loki run.
 
@Kepekley23

Perception does not translate into raw power, and even if the gods are teeny tiny facets of The One Above All, this does not remotely translate into that the entity itself is created by in-universe mortal belief, especially given that it has elsewhere been stated to be a gestalt of writers, editors, and readers of Marvel Comics.

@Driger-God

Do you have scans that prove that Tom DeFalco explicitly established that Yggdrasil encompassed the entire higher-dimensional structure of the Marvel multiverse?
 
@Adem

All aspects are not equivalent, and at base power Mikaboshi was simply slightly above skyfather level. It was after he started absorbing everything else that he turned extremely dangerous.
 
> Even if the gods are teeny tiny facets of The One Above All, this does not remotely translate into that the entity itself is created by mortal belief, especially given that it has elsewhere been stated to be a gestalt of writers, editors, and readers of Marvel Comics.

The House of Ideas, the realm of TOAA, is literally an infinite library containing every single story and dream in existence, and the entire plot of Avengers: No Road Home's finale is that Vision becomes the Story of Light to counteract Nyx's Story of Darkness in the House.

Much like the Presence, the One Above All is shaped by the dreams and stories of creatures "below" him.
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning

Loki has remained as the God of Stories afterwards, and never demonstrated power on par with high-level cosmic entities, and the Silver Surfer similarly protected his human companion outside of the multiverse.
 
Much like Black Panther became the King to defeat Logos in a battle of metaphor, God of Stories Loki is completely metaphorical in nature. Stories shape reality, he is the god of stories. "Then" and Now", the two 1-A entities who manage the House of Ideas, acknowledge Loki's status as the god of stories as important.
 
@Kepekley23

It is massive conjecture to assume that he is created and empowered by in-universe mortal beliefs when this has not been explicitly stated, and in fact he has been established as a real world amalgam entity elsewhere.
 
I have kinda just proven it's not conjecture. The House of Ideas is the One Above All, and it is literally an infinite library containing every story and dream in existence.
 
The House of Ideas is the home of The One Above All, and it has still not been stated that he was created and empowered by the in-universe imagination of the mortals within the Marvel Comics setting. On the other hand, it has been established that he is a gestalt entity of writers, editors, etc.
 
@Antvasima "Perception does not translate into raw power"

Not that it's that implying, but is that kind of contradicting the wiki's own pattern.

For example, Lucifer Morningstar has justifications for 1-A based only on perception.

We need consistency with this wiki, I hope you make no exception of justification for 1 character, while denying that of the other.
 
He is not literally the Marvel counterpart to DC's Writer. The idea of him as a gestalt entity that represents the composite of every comic writer is metaphorical, not literal. You need to understand that Al Ewing's cosmology is filled to the brim with metaphors in its highest layer.

The Presence was stated to have been shaped by dreams, too. He is still 1-A. Why is it so hard to believe when it's pretty much stated?
 
Rune King Thor is not merely perceiving Ginnungagap. He literally ceased to be, became unbound by all space and time in the process, before proceeding to merge with the void itself in order to reach the level of existence of the TWSAIS. So that argument is moot, as well.

I was also just debunking your assertion that existing beyond space and time was not treated as something impressive in this storyline. It clearly was, considering how big of a deal they made out of Thor doing just that.
 
@Alonik

I am not well informed about Lucifer, but he either scales to other entities of a 1-A nature, or it is a several wrongs do not make a right situation. Regardless, we have to evaluate what makes sense for this situation, not use rhetorical pressure via the scaling of other verses.

@Kepekley23

Because I am extremely familiar with Marvel and do not interpret the power hierarchy in at all the same way that you do. As a result, I want explicit statements or explanations, not interpretations, in order to change my mind.

A big deal was made out of Thor transcending beyond his father and breaking the Ragnarok cycle for the 9 worlds. I don't remember him merging with any aspect of the void though (there are plenty of voids within the universes themselves in any case, so it does not inherently mean much), or any previous mentions of that Yggdrasil encompassed the sum totality of the entire multiverse in any comicbooks preceding this event.
 
There is no convoluted interpretation. It is rather directly stated in Al Ewing's recent storylines that the House of Ideas represents the One Above All, and that it is a library that contains every single story, dream, and fable ever told or believed by man, all of which shape reality.

The Odinforce stated that Thor would need to cease to exist and become one with nothingness to accomplish his goals, and he did just that, ascending to the TWSAIS' level in the process.
 
1) And how does representing TOAA and containing all Marvel stories/comicbooks within his house automatically translate into being created by the beliefs of the characters inside of the verse?

2) Can you show scans of that please? In any case becoming one with the nothingness within universes would obviously not automatically translate into becoming one with the scale of the beyond-dimensional and trans-multiversal embodiment of nonexistence that is Oblivion.
 
1) Once again, you shouldn't take metaphors so literally. As opposed to being the literal comicbooks, it's the stories and dreams of everyone. This is explicitly stated to be the case. The dreams are straight up stated to shape reality, and that reality is TOAA.

2) Ginnungagap is explicitly stated to be outside all realities, so the first half of your sentence is untrue.

Also, no one is trying to use the Thor statement as explicit evidence for 1-A. The clear, straightforward evidence for 1-A has already been laid out beforehand; and that's Ginnungagap being explicitly treated as the same thing as the Outside and as one of the interpretations of the void beyond the multiversal Eternity in the God of Stories Loki storyline.
 
Tom DeFalco has some works around the multiverse in Thor's comics, even with higher dimensions. He is the author of both Seth sagas, which takes place during Thor vol 1, and the Seth saga that takes place during the Journey into Mystery, before Thor vol 2. Basically, in the classic ones, we have these two comics just to develop the idea of Yggdrasil.

First of all, I am not here to discuss what is believed, or accepted, to be the higher dimensions here, as mentions of dimensions infinitely higher than the other, it has nothing to do with the idea of multi-dimensional state, and in the current system, There is not even a need for such infinity mentions, although Marvel works on such systems, as has been shown in some cases in classic and current comics. (But entering them would detract from the purpose of my comment here.)

Tom's main work on Thor's comics was in the Seth saga, and I will also explain very simply why Seth, Odin, and Surtur doesn't scale to the feats within this saga.

If we take how Tom DeFalco worked with the notion of "planes" on Thor's comics, we will see in Thor # 402 that he uses the idea of higher and lower spatial levels, we can see when Asgard is mentioned moving between the higher planes of reality, to the lower planes of reality . Showing that Tom DeFalco's cosmology had "higher and lower worlds" in its planes of existence.

The statements to the idea of Yggdrasil being established as a Multiverse comes from both sagas, the first Saga Seth, is in the idea of planes as the entire multiverse .

The second mention is in the Journey into Mystery, a dangerous mention that, if not well contextualized, can generate an upgrade for Odin and Seth when taken out of the context of the story, in this comic, Doctor Stranger treats Yggdrasil, or at least, the fight for Yggdrasil as a threat to the whole multiverse (The fabric of the multiverse itself is at risk according to him) , and this fight for Yggdrasil echoed through all planes of existence.

In fact this feat is amazing for both Odin and Seth, but the point is: They don't scale to this at all, there's a reason they were able to affect these planes of existence. But first of all, in the Seth Saga, it is determined that Yggdrasil is more powerful than Odin and all Nordic gods combined, Yggdrasil could take away all of their powers simply by not believing they were alive anymore. And Odin is reinforced as more powerful than Seth, even Seth in his prime. Therefore, Yggdrasil> Odin> Seth

The explanation for why the planes for existence were affected form them comes from what Seth did during the Journey into Mystery, Seth mentions that he weakened Yggdrasil, so there's a whole context for why Yggdrasil was weaker/more vulnerable , the walls between the planes had been weakened, which is why Seth was able to affect Yggdrasil at this point.

Therefore, from what is presented in the Journey into Mystery Saga, neither Seth nor Odin could do that with all planes of existence under normal conditions where Yggdrasil was not "weakened."

About TWSAIS, the fact that they could have been created by the Norse Gods has nothing to do with their level of power, that is because this logic is so unreal, the Norse gods were created by the minds of humans, and fed on their energy. (See Thor's Annual on the origin of the gods, and Gaia's mentions of what the power of the gods is)

But still, Odin is a force always represented as being beyond human reach, in every way, the same can be said about Surtur and other Nordic beings as well. I am just commenting on this to show even more the lack of logic in this argument.

And please, although Loki is currently the god of stories, during "Loki: Agent of Asgard", it has been shown that even his form within the multiverse is only a self-projection of himself, where he remains narrating his story from outside.

If anyone here wants to discuss the consistency of Thor's story, the different representations, or the cosmology used for Marvel about the "Myths" (Which would be much better developed on a blog, perhaps, to stay on Marvel's own page (I don't know if it can, but it's interesting), it would be great.

Tom DeFalco has worked in various sagas about Thor and The Multiverse, another saga where Tom DeFalco showed the gods beyond the classic "9 realms" was Thunderstrike, where the clash between Mephisto and Hela is classified as a threat to the multiverse , far greater than the threat to the "9 realm" that the story of the Norse would represent.

In this same saga we also have the idea that Odin could be higher than that , where Mephisto classifies him as an "equivalent power of his ow ."

I'm not saying that Odin should be "High 1-B" or anything like that, but he also needs an upgrade, he and Hela clearly scales to beings like Mephisto, Dormammu, Nightmare, these are characters very present in classic comics with 1-C power.
 
This sca, which someone shared with me offsite, does mention an infinite number of universes, and a "Quantum Metaverse". But I recall Quantum multiverses aren't typically Tier 1 structured.
 
@Driger half the stuff you mentioned I already brought up in an attempt to upgrade Odin before and it all got rejected, the other half is taking "planes of existence" as higher and lower when that isn't the case at all usually.

Also, loki was never a projection, I'm aware of the scan you're referencing so no need to post it, but he only ever went to the outside when secret wars started as we see, that's pretty much established throughout the story and it wouldn't make sense in relation to King Loki dying and coming back due to where he actually died and where the merge in order to become God of stories happened.

@Kepekly jesus with those misinterpretation, the point was that RKT gained greater sight than Odin as he sacrificed both eyes to Yggdrasil rather than 1, absolutely NOTHING ever states he merged with everything he percieved, also again, why is being an aspect of oblivion 1-A?

Base Chaos king literally directly stated he needed to gain more power by hiding in order to actually fight the skyfathers and reach his prime again, hell, ******* door man and maelstrom are aspects of oblivion, the M body which fought M body infinity was also another aspect.

I have no idea where most of these arguments come from, they jump from step 1 to step 10 instantly, what happened to actually examining what the scans entail here? come on
 
I agree with Hykuu about that Kepekley's interpretation of Thor's ascension completely ignores the full context of the story. Thor's perceptions increased beyond those of Odin. That does not mean that he became one with everything he perceived.

I also agree with him about that being an aspect of Oblivion does not instantly automatically give Low 1-A or 1-A level power, and that Loki is most likely not currently in some higher degree of reality narrating his story.

Anyway, regarding the above linked scans, I go by what they actually prove, rather than what is claimed in Driger's reasoning, and after checking through all of them, only a few displayed any proof whatsoever of some sort of multiversal scale:

This is an unproven hyperbolic claim that Mephisto and Hela can somehow end the "omniverse":

https://m.imgur.com/qVQZ96L

This simply says that Yggdrasil links together the 9 worlds, but that there are other belief systems out there that encompass other parts of the multiverse:

[1]

In this scans, Doctor Strange says that the fight between Odin and Seth imperils untold galaxies, and Majeston Zelia and the other Dark Gods state that it threatens to destroy the universe. That is not a multiversal scale of raw power either, just some degree of multiversal range:

https://m.imgur.com/2e488Wf

This is a claim that Yggdrasil exists on "every plane of reality", which is the only concrete evidence. I am uncertain whether or not it is enough, and would prefer further analysis from Hykuu, PrinceOfTheMorning, and ClassicNESfan:

https://m.imgur.com/a/duHQbwc
 
Yeah I used that evidence on my thread, apparently just existing across every plane of reality isn't even quantifiable, and even if it was, it would still be 2-A

The problem with 80% of the scans in this thread is that assume "planes of existence" and "levels of existence" mean the same thing, which they don't, and if that logic gets accepted then a dozen other marvel characters need to be upgraded to absurd levels through it.
 
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