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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)

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Hykuu said:
No, that was surfer, not glorian, Glorian only inhertied the power after Surfer gave it away, and then lost it regardless, it was literally his plan from the moment he met surfer to steal the power. If you have read the comic, You'd know what I'm talking about, but I can drop scans if you wish
Click to expand...


If you read the comic you would know that glorian can prevent people of gone forever in obvilion like the incredulus zedd. More important, if you read the comic you would know that cosmic power can also protect surfer and people in the board from die in the space for example.
 
@Kepekley

We used to have a regulation/instruction for this, but it seems to have been accidentally removed, either when the Outerverse page was deleted or the tiering system page was revised. I have informed Ultima about it, given that it is an important distinction to maintain.
 
I am more than aware that merely visiting a 1-A void is not a 1-A feat, Ant. I am, by no means, a new user. And no one here's been using that as the sole argument and neither have I.
 
Not as a sole argument, no, but we have not seen any feats remotely of a Low 1-A or 1-A scale from TWSAIS. We simply know that they greatly transcend Odin, that they can survive in the void beyond the multiverse, and that they feed on the Ragnarok cycles of the Asgardians. That is all. Without anything more concrete to scale from, it seems very unreliable to set a definitive tier.
 
The point is Yggdrasil reach the Otherworld and the Otherworld being a higher dimensional plane and that scale to 2 caracters on this wikia.
 
(1) Thor hung himself on the World Tree, becoming an entity with the power to comprehend what lied "beyond all quantum structure and all cosmic architecture"; Ginnungagap, the void before all creation.

(2) The TWSAIS visit Odin in his dreams, and Ginnungagap is described as the void outside all universes and realities, thus outside the multiverse.

(3) After the omniverse is destroyed, Loki comes across the Throne of the TWSAIS in the 1-A Outside. The same throne they spoke to Odin from, outside "all realities". This means that Ginnungagap is, by default, a 1-A realm; an aspect of the Outside. It also means that the "quantum structure and cosmic architecture" statement was referring to the dimensional structure of the entire multiverse all along.

It is really very simple to understand, and when you couple this with the numerous statements suggesting the True World Tree is Multiversal Abstract level, the upgrade becomes even more straightforward.
 
1) Perceiving is not remotely the same as encompassing, and it was stated that he simply went further in the ritual of self-sacrifice than Odin did to gain his power and wisdom.

2) I would like a scan with evidence please.

3) The omniverse is all fiction and reality combined. Please use the term multiverse instead. Anyway, as I said, I would like scans for this, but even if it is true, that does not remotely automatically mean that either Rune King Thor or TWSAIS remotely have power on this scale. Being present in a 1-A environmemt, or perceiving a 1-A environment does not mean being on par with a 1-A environment. In addition, this is not at all what was intended with the original Ragnarok storyline.
 
1) Already explained multiple times. Thor ceased to be and was reborn, having ascended to the TWSAIS' level of existence.

2) Literally posted multiple times in the original thread; Ginnungagap was described as a "forgotten void outside all realms, outside all realities", and it's the same realm as the Outside.

3) Those scans have been mentioned or posted in almost every single post in this thread. It raises several questions as to why you constantly claim the upgrade is pure conjecture if you aren't aware of the most fundamental scans which have been the most important point of discussion of the upgrade since this discussion started - the "Outside/Loki" scans.

I have already explained several times that it's not about being present in a 1-A environment. At this point I'm extremely tired of the constant, circular pandering here. I'd really appreciate it if someone else like ClassicNESFan returned to this debate, so as to bring a new perspective.
 
Ginnungagap existing outside of the Multiverse doesn't mean it's an 1-A realm.

Also, I'm not really a fan of these lenghty summarizing multi-paragraph posts that have no scans whatsoever in them. If you want to present your evidence, put all the scans which you say are "irrefutable" in one single place.
 
Being outside of the Multiverse doesn't mean it's an 1-A realm but if this realm be obvilion/outside it make 1-A.

And the thread should get all the scans in one big comment but don't seems to work very well.
 
Ginnungagap is literally the void before all creation. We have always treated voids that transcend space and time on all possible levels as 1-A.

I have posted all the scans I talked about that are relevant to the summary just a couple posts above the summary itself.
 
Except that's not what they say. They say that Ginnungagap is a piece of Oblivion and then try to equate that to Nyx (Who is also never stated to be a piece of Oblivion), and then just because Ginnungagap exists in The Outside it's supposed to be 1-A? Isn't that illogical?
 
Luck100 said:
A piece of a 1-A realm is what ? 1-A.
Click to expand...
No? A realm that resides within a 1-A Void isn't necessarily 1-A.

That's like saying that the Island Realm of Artaeum from The Elder Scrolls is 1-A because it exists outside of the Aurbis.
 
Ginnungagap being the void predating a Low 1-A multiverse making it 1-A is illogical? Almost every single 1-A character scales to this sort of reasoning.

And no one tried to scale Ginnungagap to Nyx directly in this thread. That was just establishing the fact that Oblivion has several 1-A aspects, meaning it's not unreasonable for Ginnungagap to be 1-A.
 
Kep Stuff
1. No evidence that Ginnungagap is the entire void other than your word that it is. All the scans say is state that it exists outside all places and realms.

2. Nowhere has been shown that Nyx is a piece of Oblivion other than you saying it is

3. You keep alternating between saying Ginnungagap is a piece of Oblivion and Oblivion itself when Oblivion in its entirety is what's defined as the Pre-Multiversal Void of Nothingness.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Luck100 said:
A piece of a 1-A realm is what ? 1-A.
Click to expand...
No? A realm that resides within a 1-A Void isn't necessarily 1-A.
That's like saying that the Island Realm of Artaeum from The Elder Scrolls is 1-A because it exists outside of the Aurbis.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with elder scrolls. But if I remember well, DC got three 1-A beings because they are made from piecies of a 1-A realm.
 
1. Ginnungagap is directly stated to be the primordial, chaotic void; and then stated in one of my linked scans to be a "forgotten void outside all realms, outside all realities", and then stated to be an interpretation of the Outside in the Loki storyline. Even the OP links all of those scans.

2. Oblivion is the true form of the void before the multiverse. He has aspects on every pantheon out there. Mikaboshi was just one aspect of the infinity he represents, and he was the Japanese version of the formless void before creation. Nyx, having been stated to be the "darkness before creation" multiple times and being a 1-A entity in her Full-Aspect form, is clearly another one of such aspects just via common cosmological ground. Not like it matters to Ginnungagap's standing, anyway.

3. I never claimed Ginnungagap is the entirety of Oblivion, especially considering Oblivion is an above-baseline 1-A entity, at the very least.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
If you actually looked at the Monitor Revision Thread, they were made 1-A for vastly more developed reasons. But the AP Descriptions on their profiles is quite shit.
Click to expand...
I could say the same about you looking the explanation of this upgrade.
 
@Kepekley23

1) Yes, but again, just because they can possibly perceive degrees of reality on this level does not mean that they encompass it themselves.

2) Thank you. I would prefer to see what PrinceOfTheMorning, Hykuu, and ClassicNESfan think about this.

3) I was referring to the specifics of point 2. I am well aware of that Loki met with TWSAIS after the multiverse ended. And I only claim that the wild speculation based on trying to make a pattern from stories decades apart is conjecture. I am only interested in the scans with explicit evidence, as I have stated and shown earlier.
 
This thread is literally just a group of people who won't change their mind vs a group of people who won't change their mind, I see literally no purpose in continuing this discussion, specially because this has just delved into re-posting the same scans, repeating the same arguments, etc.

I'll either analyze every scan and leave a final comment later or just let this be, since it's not going anywhere


By the way, there's this weird misunderstanding which comes from people who didn't really focus when reading the comic I guess.

- Thor didn't ascend himself to those planes of existence he percived, I'll explain

The initial point was that Thor met the embodiment of the Odinforce who appeared to him after he failed, and explained to him what Thor needs to actually become a God and avoid the end.

The power they were referencing which made him greater than Odin as a god wasn't raw power, but rather Knowledge, and Thor needed to sacrifice his eyes in order to achieve the greater sight which Odin achieved , which was of course not enough , so he sacrificed both eyes, and even then, he still couldn't read the runes which were records for everything since the start of Yggdrasil.

The only solution was that for Thor to read the runes, he would have to hang himself like how Odin did, this of course resulted in the page where we see him percieve Gungingngngiougahdisap, what's funny is that he literally couldn't even handle what he was percieving , and didn't ascend any realms, rather, he literally died due to tha t, and was saved by Odin so he can ascend beyond death.

And it wasn't he who ascended to the level of existence which TWSAIS existed in, they literally dragged him in, and even then he literally admitted he was a Child's toy in comparison to them after everything he's gone through.

To summarize

- Thor didn't read the runes (which is where the gunignigngjg gnap scaling comes from) and suddenly gain his sight, he directly needed the help of the odinforce and needed to sacrifice both eyes to Yggdrasil

- Even after hanging himself and percieving what was written on the Runes, he still couldn't handle it and literally Died, and had to get saved by ODIN, LOL.

- After that, not only did he lose the runes (as the ravens have nothing to do with the runes, and those are the only sight he attained signified by his eyes), but he literally got forcefully dragged into TWSAIS' realm

- He literally admits he was a child's toy in comparison to them

This + them being "natural inhabitants of a 1-A realm" not making them 1-A, as that would make beings like the many angeled ones neutral zone level, which obviously makes no sense through that logic, and Gunginnnaphhgigigg literally having direction and only being the start of the 9 realms, as nearly every depiction of it shows, and how not all avatars of Oblivion are outerversal

Also, even if we were to accept that every avatar of Oblivion shown was outerversal, that wouldn't make any avatar after the ones we saw outerversal aswell, I think anyone can see how this solely relies on a hasty generalization, let's be real

Anyways I'm done for now, cbf
 
I think that Hykuu makes perfect sense. Thank you for helping out.

Given his systematic debunk of the premise of this argument, I think that we should preferably close this thread soon, as the suggested statistics are not going to be accepted, and this is wasting all of our time and energy.
 
He did not fight them directly. As far as I understand, he simply broke the Ragnarok cycle so TWSAIS had nothing to feed on.
 
Everything Hykuu said has a strangely nature wrong. Why simply cut out several quotes from the comic and even change the order of some scans to claim his expressions.

When you say that people have not interpreted the comic correctly, you should take this as an example, because your interpretation does not match what is written.

Now let's show you how your text is much wrong:

The power they were referencing which made him greater than Odin as a god wasn't raw power, but rather Knowledge, and Thor needed to sacrifice his eyes in order to achieve the greater sight which Odin achieved , which was of course not enough , so he sacrificed both eyes, and even then, he still couldn't read the runes which were records for everything since the start of Yggdrasil.

That doesn't exist, it's just an extreme fallacy of verbal evasion with what's written, and it's the same as saying that from reading for example a magic book you can't have the raw power that that book gave you through knowledge by reading it. And that's so evident, Thor gains several new and raw powers because of the runes;

So the statement "was just knowledge" is false.

The only solution was that for Thor to read the runes, he would have to hang himself like how Odin did, this of course resulted in the page where we see him percieve Gungingngngiougahdisap, what's funny is that he literally couldn't even handle what he was percieving , and didn't ascend any realms, rather, he literally died due to tha t, and was saved by Odin so he can ascend beyond death.

Did you really read the scans you posted? Because here are literally saying he was learning and understanding what he WILL see. By the way, please do not throw the scan of page 4 ahead of the context of the following pages, you are changing the interpretative order of this, and wrong yet.

And that of him being "rescued" by his father, it's just plotdevice, he says forward himself that he was purposeful to kill himself, so he can no longer have a place in the concept of death, and be able to do what was coming forward.

And it wasn't he who ascended to the level of existence which TWSAIS existed in, they literally dragged him in, and even then he literally admitted he was a Child's toy in comparison to them after everything he's gone through.

Again, your interpretation of text is totally wrong, please read the sentence again.

Those who sit above in shadows said: "you cannot understand what you have no context for-- and we are beyond you. You are nothing more to us than..."

And Thor complements: "...Than a toy is to a child! Children, that is all you are."

Only that's pure interpretation of text, that's something simple we learned at school, completing a sentence from someone is not agreeing with it, right after he even says "Childred, that's all you are." So please put some intelligence on it.

Soon after it is stated by Thor that he has become something they never dreamed possible. At the end of that conversation Thor had ascended to his power, which is remarkable that in this conversation he had not yet awakened.

To sumarize you read it all wrong.

The scans you presented totally say the opposite of what you said, including the rest of the story. And it's totally irresponsible, unreliable, and a total headcanon.

About Thor ascended to void realm
It literally says Thor was in the same starless "sky" as the TWSAIS remains.

And Thor only lost the power of the runes, when he literally wakes up in the VOID of the ginnungagap/outside, in Thor's next volume without the powers of the runes, because he was already a new comic and the writer wanted to remove the powers from his runes.

I eagerly wait to see how this will be taken out of context, misread, or ignored, since it is the only point that is happening.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Hykuu makes perfect sense. Thank you for helping out.

Given his systematic debunk of the premise of this argument, I think that we should preferably close this thread soon, as the suggested statistics are not going to be accepted, and this is wasting all of our time and energy.
Click to expand...
This reads like "I am uncomfortable with this upgrade"
 
Antvasima said:
He did not fight them directly. As far as I understand, he simply broke the Ragnarok cycle so TWSAIS had nothing to feed on.
Click to expand...
False. The TWSAIS were afraid of Thor's power and asked him to join them, an offer he rejected before proceeding to go on and defeat them.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Hykuu makes perfect sense. Thank you for helping out.

Given his systematic debunk of the premise of this argument, I think that we should preferably close this thread soon, as the suggested statistics are not going to be accepted, and this is wasting all of our time and energy.
Click to expand...
Nothing is getting closed. Sorry. Several administrators agree that 1-A TWSAIS is a reasonable interpretation, including the person who wrote the new Tiering System. You and a few others disagreeing does not give you the right to close this thread.

You believe Hykuu's arguments are perfect. I, on the other hand, believe everything he has put forth so far has been trivial to refute and debunk. Tough to decide which one is right.
 
Also in regards to Alonik's last post... I have no idea what he's trying to prove? Once again he makes paragraph after paragraph with minimal scans.

These two prove absolutely nothing beyond Thor just getting Rune Magic.

This is just Thor hanging and this is just Thor talking about the cycle of Ragnarok. This is just Thor saying that he now sees through TWSAIS, which was never a point of contention.

And this is just Thor attacking them.

Finally, this scan is often brought up to prove a myriad of things but it's so vague as to be wholly meaningless.
 
I, on the other hand, see absolutely nothing wrong with this upgrade nor does it "stretch the limits of the continuity" at all, in my view.

Rune King Thor only appeared within a single run with variable context. Other runs from the same time period were already establishing the TWSAIS as multiversal in scale, and then Al Ewing's storyline portrayed them as clearly 1-A.

Nothing from the original storyline contradicts it, so the "context" talk is really shaky to use as an argument, IMO.
 
It's not at all shaky, it's about seeing presented evidence for the upgrades rather than just following some guy's word on a forum post here.

I looked at all the scans Alonik put in his last post and it had absolutely nothing.
 
Kepekley23 said:
(1) Thor hung himself on the World Tree, becoming an entity with the power to comprehend what lied "beyond all quantum structure and all cosmic architecture"; Ginnungagap, the void before all creation.

(2) The TWSAIS visit Odin in his dreams, and Ginnungagap is described as the void outside all universes and realities, thus outside the multiverse.

(3) After the omniverse is destroyed, Loki comes across the Throne of the TWSAIS in the 1-A Outside. The same throne they spoke to Odin from, outside "all realities" in Ginnungagap. This means that Ginnungagap is, by default, a 1-A realm; an interpretation of the Outside. It also means that the "quantum structure and cosmic architecture" statement was referring to the dimensional structure of the entire multiverse all along.

It is really very simple to understand, and when you couple this with the numerous statements suggesting the True World Tree is Multiversal Abstract level, the upgrade becomes even more straightforward.
Click to expand...
 
1) Scan 1 simply says that Thor can see all creation and also into the void of Ginnungagap. It is meaningless on its own. It could easily fit a Tier 2 cosmology.

2) I never denied that Ginnungagap was outside of the multiverse, just that this is somehow instantaneous proof that it is a "1-A Realm"

3) You're using the exact same scan for point 3. So you're not helping yourself. And the argument that the "cosmic architecture" quote was referring to a multiverse on a level that wouldn't exist until after the Al Ewing retcons is laughable.
 
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