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The servants of The Living Tribunal in that storyline were weaker than She-Hulk despite existing in a realm outside of all reality.Luck100 said:
Thanks for showing you don't know what you're talking about.
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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)
- Thread starter ClassicNESfan
- Start date
- Status
Thanks for showing you don't know what you're talking about.
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Then I do the impossible, and say to you, with a straight face, that said storyline was portraying the destruction of the multiverse as exactly what it was, the destruction of the multiverse, and that nothing in the scans you showed indicate that Those Who Sit In Shadow were going to "consume that story" into themselves. Such a claim doesn't even make basic logical sense.ParadoxIndifferent said:
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As if it matters.
Ragnarok was explicitly treated as an End of the Omniverse story, and the TWSAIS were going to casually absorb the "Story of the Last Day" into themselves, and that same story is, as stated by Fem!Loki, the story of the last day that comes before the "whole omniverse itself is wiped out".
The TWSAIS are natural inhabitants of a 1-A realm, were casually going to absorb the Low 1-A story of the Last Battle.
Ragnarok was explicitly treated as an End of the Omniverse story, and the TWSAIS were going to casually absorb the "Story of the Last Day" into themselves, and that same story is, as stated by Fem!Loki, the story of the last day that comes before the "whole omniverse itself is wiped out".
The TWSAIS are natural inhabitants of a 1-A realm, were casually going to absorb the Low 1-A story of the Last Battle.
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Also, showing evidence that "All stories were ending / dying" with the destruction of the multiverse has nothing to do with Yggdrasil or Rune King Thor.
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You keep saying stuf that's not in any scans you link. Where was it said that they were going to "absorb the story" into themselves. And how's that just not a metaphor but instead something I'm meant to take it at face value. Specially when God of Stories Loki isn't remotely impressive himself?ParadoxIndifferent said:
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Aside from the fact that the World Tree is explicitly stated to embody the Story of the Last Day, which was established in the storyline as an Omniversal story, no one said anything about Thor. We're talking about the TWSAIS here, not Thor. Don't flee from the subject.
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Glad to see you've finally conceded the fact that "Ragnarok" in this storyline was specifically multiversal, though. We're finally progressing.
Aside from the fact the exact same thing has been stated from their very first appearance onwards.
Aside from the fact the exact same thing has been stated from their very first appearance onwards.
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This is what the profiles would look like upon being upgraded, by the way:
TWSAIS: Outerverse level (Exist beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture, into the primeval nothingness of the Outside, the void that predates all space and time and even Eternity itself. To them, the destruction of the entire multiverse is nothing but a "story" which they prey upon, only for it to be reborn again in an endless cycle)
Rune King Thor: Outerverse level (Gained the ability to perceive what lied beyond all quantum structure and architecture and the great, primeval chaos of Ginnungagap and the Outside, before going on to destroy the World Tree, Yggdrasil, and defeat Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow)
TWSAIS: Outerverse level (Exist beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture, into the primeval nothingness of the Outside, the void that predates all space and time and even Eternity itself. To them, the destruction of the entire multiverse is nothing but a "story" which they prey upon, only for it to be reborn again in an endless cycle)
Rune King Thor: Outerverse level (Gained the ability to perceive what lied beyond all quantum structure and architecture and the great, primeval chaos of Ginnungagap and the Outside, before going on to destroy the World Tree, Yggdrasil, and defeat Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow)
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I didn't. I accept that the events of Secret Wars are multiversal in scale. But under no instance have I "conceded" to your interpretations. Don't put words in my mouth.ParadoxIndifferent said:
Secondly, their "very first appearance" was in a story that treated Ragnarok as limited to the Nine Realms. This is undeniable if you read the Ragnarok Storyline.
Thirdly, about your "proposed AP descriptions".
"Exist beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture"
Prove it. And you won't succeed because all you have there is an instance of Thor saying he can see beyond those things.
"into the primeval nothingness of the Outside"
No, they exist in Ginnungagap, which is in the Outside, but is not the Outside. Again the "Pro-Upgrade" side gleefully contradicts themselves for no apparent reason.
"To them, the destruction of the entire multiverse is nothing but a "story" which they prey upon, only for it to be reborn again in an endless cycle"
Would be damn good to have been shown a single sca that proves this point.
Also, lol, "the multiverse is nothing but a story". What do you think this is, Umineko? The way the storyline treats stories isn't in the way your wording is implying, it has nothing to do with higher/lower reality interaction. In fact stories are treated as tangible and as the essence of things. So they seeing "the multiverse as a story" is in fact meaningless because everything is a story.
As for Thor...
"Gained the ability to perceive what lied beyond all quantum structure and architecture"
Agreed. This is actually stated in that one scan you like. But I had no idea that basic cosmic awareness was suddenly a feat of Attack Potency.
"and the great, primeval chaos of Ginnungagap and the Outside"
Holy Shit, did you just identify Ginnungagap and the Outside as two separate things? Is this really what happened? But on the very paragraph above this one in your very same post you were deliberately selling the two as the same thing. So which one is it, Jeff?
"before going on to destroy the World Tree, Yggdrasil"
He didn't. He destroyed the Loom of Fate held by the Norns. Not the whole tree, as I recall. But as always, you can show scans to prove your point.
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Damn.ParadoxIndifferent said:
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I almost expected you to actually counter my Ragnarok argument, for a moment, but of course, you ignored it.
> Secondly, their "very first appearance" was in a story that treated Ragnarok as limited to the Nine Realms. This is undeniable if you read the Ragnarok Storyline.
Doesn't matter whether Ragnarok was being treated as universal or multiversal in the original X-Men storyline; the TWSAIS specifically don't receive any showings of power until the Thor 1998 and Al Ewing stories.
> Prove it. And you won't succeed because all you have there is an instance of Thor saying he can see beyond those things.
Beyond those things, right into the void of Ginnungagap, the realm of the TWSAIS. So, by default, they exist beyond all cosmic architecture and quantum structure. Especially considering they're outside the framework of the "story" that defines the multiverse, in the first place.
> No, they exist in Ginnungagap, which is in the Outside, but is not the Outside. Again the "Pro-Upgrade" side gleefully contradicts themselves for no apparent reason.
Ginnungagap is the void before all creation. You can't claim a timeless and spaceless void that transcends the Low 1-A structure of the multiverse is "located" on the Outside, when it literally is the Outside, lol.
> Would be damn good to have been shown a single scan that proves this point.
Not like you will actually counter it.
> Also, lol, "the multiverse is nothing but a story". What do you think this is, Umineko? The way the storyline treats stories isn't in the way your wording is implying, it has nothing to do with higher/lower reality interaction. In fact stories are treated as tangible and as the essence of things. So they seeing "the multiverse as a story" is in fact meaningless because everything is a story.
Can you actually read things for a moment before you go on spewing a random brunch of nonsense? I never claimed the TWSAIS viewed the story they devour as fiction, just that the cycle upon which the multiverse depends to be reborn is created and powered by their will, and said cycle is contained within a story they can consume at a moment's notice.
> Agreed. This is actually stated in that one scan you like. But I had no idea that basic cosmic awareness was suddenly a feat of Attack Potency.
Thor ascended to the level of existence of the TWSAIS. Will we have to debunk this nonsense a thousand times before the point gets to your head? Holy shit.
> Holy Shit, did you just identify Ginnungagap and the Outside as two separate things? Is this really what happened? But on the very paragraph above this one in your very same post you were deliberately selling the two as the same thing. So which one is it, Jeff?
"GOTCHA!"ing people really is your specialty.
They are the exact same thing. Ginnungagap is the Outside. Already posted the scan zillions of times. It just shifts depending on who is viewing it. To the Norse, the void that spawned all things is Ginnungagap. To the Greeks, it is Chaos, and so on.
> He didn't. He destroyed the Loom of Fate held by the Norns. Not the whole tree, as I recall. But as always, you can show scans to prove your point.
The Tree is literally shown shriveling up and shrinking on-panel, before disappearing.
> Secondly, their "very first appearance" was in a story that treated Ragnarok as limited to the Nine Realms. This is undeniable if you read the Ragnarok Storyline.
Doesn't matter whether Ragnarok was being treated as universal or multiversal in the original X-Men storyline; the TWSAIS specifically don't receive any showings of power until the Thor 1998 and Al Ewing stories.
> Prove it. And you won't succeed because all you have there is an instance of Thor saying he can see beyond those things.
Beyond those things, right into the void of Ginnungagap, the realm of the TWSAIS. So, by default, they exist beyond all cosmic architecture and quantum structure. Especially considering they're outside the framework of the "story" that defines the multiverse, in the first place.
> No, they exist in Ginnungagap, which is in the Outside, but is not the Outside. Again the "Pro-Upgrade" side gleefully contradicts themselves for no apparent reason.
Ginnungagap is the void before all creation. You can't claim a timeless and spaceless void that transcends the Low 1-A structure of the multiverse is "located" on the Outside, when it literally is the Outside, lol.
> Would be damn good to have been shown a single scan that proves this point.
Not like you will actually counter it.
> Also, lol, "the multiverse is nothing but a story". What do you think this is, Umineko? The way the storyline treats stories isn't in the way your wording is implying, it has nothing to do with higher/lower reality interaction. In fact stories are treated as tangible and as the essence of things. So they seeing "the multiverse as a story" is in fact meaningless because everything is a story.
Can you actually read things for a moment before you go on spewing a random brunch of nonsense? I never claimed the TWSAIS viewed the story they devour as fiction, just that the cycle upon which the multiverse depends to be reborn is created and powered by their will, and said cycle is contained within a story they can consume at a moment's notice.
> Agreed. This is actually stated in that one scan you like. But I had no idea that basic cosmic awareness was suddenly a feat of Attack Potency.
Thor ascended to the level of existence of the TWSAIS. Will we have to debunk this nonsense a thousand times before the point gets to your head? Holy shit.
> Holy Shit, did you just identify Ginnungagap and the Outside as two separate things? Is this really what happened? But on the very paragraph above this one in your very same post you were deliberately selling the two as the same thing. So which one is it, Jeff?
"GOTCHA!"ing people really is your specialty.
They are the exact same thing. Ginnungagap is the Outside. Already posted the scan zillions of times. It just shifts depending on who is viewing it. To the Norse, the void that spawned all things is Ginnungagap. To the Greeks, it is Chaos, and so on.
> He didn't. He destroyed the Loom of Fate held by the Norns. Not the whole tree, as I recall. But as always, you can show scans to prove your point.
The Tree is literally shown shriveling up and shrinking on-panel, before disappearing.
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> To the Greeks, it is Chaos, and so on.
This is a damn good point, actually.
As we see with Nyx, who represents the darkness of the primordial void that is Chaos, the Peak/Full-Aspect forms of each mythogical "Dark Void" is 1-A. So if Chaos, the Wuji and so many other primeval voids are 1-A, the precedent is already set for Ginnungagap to be, as well.
Not that this proves anything by itself, but it further debunks the idea that there isn't a precedent in Marvel for each pantheon's individual creation void to be 1-A and that this rating is coming out of nowhere.
This is a damn good point, actually.
As we see with Nyx, who represents the darkness of the primordial void that is Chaos, the Peak/Full-Aspect forms of each mythogical "Dark Void" is 1-A. So if Chaos, the Wuji and so many other primeval voids are 1-A, the precedent is already set for Ginnungagap to be, as well.
Not that this proves anything by itself, but it further debunks the idea that there isn't a precedent in Marvel for each pantheon's individual creation void to be 1-A and that this rating is coming out of nowhere.
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I'll respond against later.
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In addition that Kepekley23 and Paradox said, Matthew should bring a blatante scan saying that ginnungagap is inside the outside, showing that it's not him, otherwise it's just personal interpretation. And i hope we don't have a reverse of the burden of proof, the claim that ginnungagap is the outside is a priori on this debate.
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You have to prove a positive, son. And "Ginnungagap is the Outside itself" is one hell of a big claim to make. So I expect scans of evidence.
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Of which you yourself have provided none. It is not good to be the one relentlessly asking for scans and receiving them at every turn, while being incapable of providing anything of relevance.
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I feel as if I have just witnessed something illegal.ParadoxIndifferent said:
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I have received scans which proved less than nothing. Everytime people presented me with scans I addressed them. Don't try to dishonestly present me as someone who's just ignoring irrefutable evidence, it's not good.Kepekley23 said:
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Ok then.
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Doesn't matter whether Ragnarok was being treated as universal or multiversal in the original X-Men storyline; the TWSAIS specifically don't receive any showings of power until the Thor 1998 and Al Ewing stories.
Have you just heard what you yourself are saying? "Every instance where Ragnarok isn't portrayed on the scale I'm saying it is doesn't matter". This is just extreme confirmation bias on a level I have hardly ever seen here.
"Beyond those things, right into the void of Ginnungagap, the realm of the TWSAIS."
Yes, he sees beyond. He isn't beyond. Big difference. Words mean things. Learn their meaning and don't infer beyond them.
"So, by default, they exist beyond all cosmic architecture and quantum structure."
Nope, all that means is that they exist outside of "all cosmic architecture and quantum structure", which in of itself doesn't mean much. Vague such statements doesn't prove he's seeing the entirety of a Low 1-A Multiverse either so I have no clue in all honesty why you're so fixated on using this line verbatum as argument. If you could elaborate as to why you think that's the case, preferably with evidence, I'd much appreciate you.
"Ginnungagap is the void before all creation."
A claim which you will later contradict...
"You can't claim a timeless and spaceless void that transcends the Low 1-A structure of the multiverse is "located" on the Outside, when it literally is the Outside, lol."
PROVE THAT GINNUNGAGAP IS THE OUTSIDE
Seriously. Just do it. Stop claiming that it is and making "lol" statements of your smug certainty and instead just present an ounce of evidence that validates this claim.
"Not like you will actually counter it."
1. Stop with the smug dismissal.
2. Thank you for actually giving me one scan for once. I appreciate the effort.
3. Unfortunately, I find this scan lacking. All it says is that They Who Sit In Shadow consume the stories of the gods (Specifically the Norse Gods) and their endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth. It isn't saying that they are consuming the entire multiverse (pure nonsense), or the story of the multiverse. It's saying that it is consuming the stories of the gods that Loki is currently withholding from them.
4. Also, why would eating a story in this context be evidence for 1-A status? The gods aren't that powerful. There's nothing particularly significant about their demise and rebirth that hints at such a level. And as Kepekley23 himself has admitted, the power of stories is primarily metaphorical. As evidenced by God of Stories Loki not being that special in any actual context that truly matters for a Vs Wiki.
"Can you actually read things for a moment before you go on spewing a random brunch of nonsense?"
Stop with the insulting.
"I never claimed the TWSAIS viewed the story they devour as fiction"
No, but you sure as hell made it seem like that was the take you were going with. A take which sure as hell is contradicted by the scans.
"just that the cycle upon which the multiverse depends to be reborn is created and powered by their will"
Only the Norse Gods, not the multiverse. You conflate things which are wholly separate simply because they use similar terms.
"and said cycle is contained within a story they can consume at a moment's notice"
As evidenced by them failing to consume the story when Loki withheld it I guess.
"Thor ascended to the level of existence of the TWSAIS. Will we have to debunk this nonsense a thousand times before the point gets to your head? Holy shit."
Getting angry once again. You need to calm down.
And I don't care if Thor is on the same level as the Shadow Seat Boys, my point is that the scene you keep bringing up again and again and again and again is a feat for cosmic awareness and nothing else. Seeing beyond something is not the same as conceptually existing beyond something.
"GOTCHA!"ing people really is your specialty.
"They are the exact same thing. Ginnungagap is the Outside. Already posted the scan zillions of times."
Which scan.
Seriously, which friggin' scan. I haven't seen it. Which scan proves that Ginnungagap and The Outside are the same.
"It just shifts depending on who is viewing it. To the Norse, the void that spawned all things is Ginnungagap. To the Greeks, it is Chaos, and so on"
Bold claim to make. Do you have evidence for that? Or is that merely your headcanon. If you have no scans to support this we may as well throw this claim in the trash.
"The Tree is literally shown shriveling up and shrinking on-panel, before disappearing."
1. Another scan shown. Thank you once again for the effort. I appreciate it. Makes it easier to debate here.
2. Unfortunately, I don't think the scan is showing all you're saying. All we see is a big wound in the tree trunk, and the trunk around it shrivels and contracts around the wound. We don't get any confirmation that Thor destroyed all of Yggdrasil, which I personally seriously doubt because
3. Asgard and the other realms still exist in this story after Thor does this. Which would contradict the notion that Thor completely destroyed the entirety of the tree.
Have you just heard what you yourself are saying? "Every instance where Ragnarok isn't portrayed on the scale I'm saying it is doesn't matter". This is just extreme confirmation bias on a level I have hardly ever seen here.
"Beyond those things, right into the void of Ginnungagap, the realm of the TWSAIS."
Yes, he sees beyond. He isn't beyond. Big difference. Words mean things. Learn their meaning and don't infer beyond them.
"So, by default, they exist beyond all cosmic architecture and quantum structure."
Nope, all that means is that they exist outside of "all cosmic architecture and quantum structure", which in of itself doesn't mean much. Vague such statements doesn't prove he's seeing the entirety of a Low 1-A Multiverse either so I have no clue in all honesty why you're so fixated on using this line verbatum as argument. If you could elaborate as to why you think that's the case, preferably with evidence, I'd much appreciate you.
"Ginnungagap is the void before all creation."
A claim which you will later contradict...
"You can't claim a timeless and spaceless void that transcends the Low 1-A structure of the multiverse is "located" on the Outside, when it literally is the Outside, lol."
PROVE THAT GINNUNGAGAP IS THE OUTSIDE
Seriously. Just do it. Stop claiming that it is and making "lol" statements of your smug certainty and instead just present an ounce of evidence that validates this claim.
"Not like you will actually counter it."
1. Stop with the smug dismissal.
2. Thank you for actually giving me one scan for once. I appreciate the effort.
3. Unfortunately, I find this scan lacking. All it says is that They Who Sit In Shadow consume the stories of the gods (Specifically the Norse Gods) and their endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth. It isn't saying that they are consuming the entire multiverse (pure nonsense), or the story of the multiverse. It's saying that it is consuming the stories of the gods that Loki is currently withholding from them.
4. Also, why would eating a story in this context be evidence for 1-A status? The gods aren't that powerful. There's nothing particularly significant about their demise and rebirth that hints at such a level. And as Kepekley23 himself has admitted, the power of stories is primarily metaphorical. As evidenced by God of Stories Loki not being that special in any actual context that truly matters for a Vs Wiki.
"Can you actually read things for a moment before you go on spewing a random brunch of nonsense?"
Stop with the insulting.
"I never claimed the TWSAIS viewed the story they devour as fiction"
No, but you sure as hell made it seem like that was the take you were going with. A take which sure as hell is contradicted by the scans.
"just that the cycle upon which the multiverse depends to be reborn is created and powered by their will"
Only the Norse Gods, not the multiverse. You conflate things which are wholly separate simply because they use similar terms.
"and said cycle is contained within a story they can consume at a moment's notice"
As evidenced by them failing to consume the story when Loki withheld it I guess.
"Thor ascended to the level of existence of the TWSAIS. Will we have to debunk this nonsense a thousand times before the point gets to your head? Holy shit."
Getting angry once again. You need to calm down.
And I don't care if Thor is on the same level as the Shadow Seat Boys, my point is that the scene you keep bringing up again and again and again and again is a feat for cosmic awareness and nothing else. Seeing beyond something is not the same as conceptually existing beyond something.
"GOTCHA!"ing people really is your specialty.
"They are the exact same thing. Ginnungagap is the Outside. Already posted the scan zillions of times."
Which scan.
Seriously, which friggin' scan. I haven't seen it. Which scan proves that Ginnungagap and The Outside are the same.
"It just shifts depending on who is viewing it. To the Norse, the void that spawned all things is Ginnungagap. To the Greeks, it is Chaos, and so on"
Bold claim to make. Do you have evidence for that? Or is that merely your headcanon. If you have no scans to support this we may as well throw this claim in the trash.
"The Tree is literally shown shriveling up and shrinking on-panel, before disappearing."
1. Another scan shown. Thank you once again for the effort. I appreciate it. Makes it easier to debate here.
2. Unfortunately, I don't think the scan is showing all you're saying. All we see is a big wound in the tree trunk, and the trunk around it shrivels and contracts around the wound. We don't get any confirmation that Thor destroyed all of Yggdrasil, which I personally seriously doubt because
3. Asgard and the other realms still exist in this story after Thor does this. Which would contradict the notion that Thor completely destroyed the entirety of the tree.
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> Have you just heard what you yourself are saying? "Every instance where Ragnarok isn't portrayed on the scale I'm saying it is doesn't matter". This is just extreme confirmation bias on a level I have hardly ever seen here.
Once again, stop twisting my words out of their context. Ragnarok's scale in a random story the TWSAIS have extremely minor presence in doesn't matter for the sake of this debate. The only thing that matters is that, in the only stories we have where the TWSAIS' power was directly demonstrated, it was multiversal. Simple as that. Other stories are irrelevant.
> Yes, he sees beyond. He isn't beyond. Big difference. Words mean things. Learn their meaning and don't infer beyond them.
Yet again, stop twisting my words. I don't care about what that statement means for Thor. I am talking about the TWSAIS. They are the ones who are being referred to as transcending quantum structure. Thor doesn't matter.
> Nope, all that means is that they exist outside of "all cosmic architecture and quantum structure", which in of itself doesn't mean much.
No one ever claimed it did. It means something when coupled with the other story the TWSAIS make a major appearance in, not by itself.
> A claim which you will later contradict...
Something you say multiple times, yet never elaborate on. Tough life.
> PROVE THAT GINNUNGAGAP IS THE OUTSIDE
The realm of the TWSAIS is the Outside:
The realm of the TWSAIS is Ginnungagap
> 1. Stop with the smug dismissal.
If you shit-talk others, don't be surprised if people do the exact same when it turns out you're talking nonsense. You dished it out, now take it.
Though I am glad that you're now trying to tone down your snarkiness.
> Unfortunately, I find this scan lacking. All it says is that They Who Sit In Shadow consume the stories of the gods (Specifically the Norse Gods) and their endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth. It isn't saying that they are consuming the entire multiverse (pure nonsense), or the story of the multiverse. It's saying that it is consuming the stories of the gods that Loki is currently withholding from them.
See the context of the entire storyline. Ragnarok in this story was explicitly referred to as interchangeable with the destruction of the entire Omniverse, and the TWSAIS themselves appeared before Odin to first announce the upcoming cosmic oblivion, by saying that they were going to be the final victors. It is explicitly talking about the entire multiverse. I have elaborated on this in-depth in the post that you ignored beforehand.
> Also, why would eating a story in this context be evidence for 1-A status? The gods aren't that powerful. There's nothing particularly significant about their demise and rebirth that hints at such a level.
That story was multiversal in scale, and the TWSAIS were going to consume it, like they have always done.
> And as Kepekley23 himself has admitted, the power of stories is primarily metaphorical. As evidenced by God of Stories Loki not being that special in any actual context that truly matters for a Vs Wiki.
Nonsense. That's not even what he meant. The stories are metaphorical because the entire omniverse is shaped by stories, to begin with, and God of Stories Loki, due to his abilities as the God of Stories, has hax that can easily shape said stories.
> No, but you sure as hell made it seem like that was the take you were going with. A take which sure as hell is contradicted by the scans.
Irrelevant. I didn't say that and it was just you misinterpreting it. What I actually said has already been outlined; the TWSAIS can consume the multiversal stories and the cycle by which those stories are even created is powered by them.
> Only the Norse Gods, not the multiverse. You conflate things which are wholly separate simply because they use similar terms.
Already debunked. Ragnarok in this story was a Low 1-A event and the TWSAIS came in to announce the end of the multiverse to Odin, reinforcing that the entire multiverse's death would benefit them and only them. Only reason why Loki even bothered them at all to begin with was because he was using his powers as the God of Stories to protect the story of the Last Battle, thus shielding it from being automatically consumed by the TWSAIS, who were offended by it.
> As evidenced by them failing to consume the story when Loki withheld it I guess.
Debunked above.
> Bold claim to make. Do you have evidence for that? Or is that merely your headcanon. If you have no scans to support this we may as well throw this claim in the trash.
House of Ideas storyline. Nyx is the embodiment of the darkness before reality and in her full state she is 1-A. Not like it is particularly relevant other than backing up the fact that multiple pantheons have 1-A interpretations of their own void(s).
> And I don't care if Thor is on the same level as the Shadow Seat Boys, my point is that the scene you keep bringing up again and again and again and again is a feat for cosmic awareness and nothing else. Seeing beyond something is not the same as conceptually existing beyond something.
I don't care about what that statement means for Thor. I am using it to back up the TWSAIS, not Thor (even though it also applies to Thor, since we see him going to Ginnungagap to match the TWSAIS, having ascended to their level). Already said this millions of times.
> Unfortunately, I don't think the scan is showing all you're saying. All we see is a big wound in the tree trunk, and the trunk around it shrivels and contracts around the wound. We don't get any confirmation that Thor destroyed all of Yggdrasil, which I personally seriously doubt because Asgard and the other realms still exist in this story after Thor does this. Which would contradict the notion that Thor completely destroyed the entirety of the tree.
The other realms still existing after Thor frees them from the Great Cycle is irrelevant to the events prior that. It is clearly shown that he destroyed the Full Tree. He even stated that he'd bring Ragnarok by his own hand. The Norns are established to create and weave the Stories for everything in the Norse Realms, even across all space and time and across all dimensions in the multiverse, and we see in the Agent of Asgard storyline that the Stories encompass the World Tree; the story of the Last Battle was going to be the "ultimate death of the World Tree and the rest of the omniverse", so for Thor to destroy their tapestry, he'd need to destroy the Yggdrasil, and the representation of the Tree shriveling up and fading away clearly shows just that.
Once again, stop twisting my words out of their context. Ragnarok's scale in a random story the TWSAIS have extremely minor presence in doesn't matter for the sake of this debate. The only thing that matters is that, in the only stories we have where the TWSAIS' power was directly demonstrated, it was multiversal. Simple as that. Other stories are irrelevant.
> Yes, he sees beyond. He isn't beyond. Big difference. Words mean things. Learn their meaning and don't infer beyond them.
Yet again, stop twisting my words. I don't care about what that statement means for Thor. I am talking about the TWSAIS. They are the ones who are being referred to as transcending quantum structure. Thor doesn't matter.
> Nope, all that means is that they exist outside of "all cosmic architecture and quantum structure", which in of itself doesn't mean much.
No one ever claimed it did. It means something when coupled with the other story the TWSAIS make a major appearance in, not by itself.
> A claim which you will later contradict...
Something you say multiple times, yet never elaborate on. Tough life.
> PROVE THAT GINNUNGAGAP IS THE OUTSIDE
The realm of the TWSAIS is the Outside:
The realm of the TWSAIS is Ginnungagap
> 1. Stop with the smug dismissal.
If you shit-talk others, don't be surprised if people do the exact same when it turns out you're talking nonsense. You dished it out, now take it.
Though I am glad that you're now trying to tone down your snarkiness.
> Unfortunately, I find this scan lacking. All it says is that They Who Sit In Shadow consume the stories of the gods (Specifically the Norse Gods) and their endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth. It isn't saying that they are consuming the entire multiverse (pure nonsense), or the story of the multiverse. It's saying that it is consuming the stories of the gods that Loki is currently withholding from them.
See the context of the entire storyline. Ragnarok in this story was explicitly referred to as interchangeable with the destruction of the entire Omniverse, and the TWSAIS themselves appeared before Odin to first announce the upcoming cosmic oblivion, by saying that they were going to be the final victors. It is explicitly talking about the entire multiverse. I have elaborated on this in-depth in the post that you ignored beforehand.
> Also, why would eating a story in this context be evidence for 1-A status? The gods aren't that powerful. There's nothing particularly significant about their demise and rebirth that hints at such a level.
That story was multiversal in scale, and the TWSAIS were going to consume it, like they have always done.
> And as Kepekley23 himself has admitted, the power of stories is primarily metaphorical. As evidenced by God of Stories Loki not being that special in any actual context that truly matters for a Vs Wiki.
Nonsense. That's not even what he meant. The stories are metaphorical because the entire omniverse is shaped by stories, to begin with, and God of Stories Loki, due to his abilities as the God of Stories, has hax that can easily shape said stories.
> No, but you sure as hell made it seem like that was the take you were going with. A take which sure as hell is contradicted by the scans.
Irrelevant. I didn't say that and it was just you misinterpreting it. What I actually said has already been outlined; the TWSAIS can consume the multiversal stories and the cycle by which those stories are even created is powered by them.
> Only the Norse Gods, not the multiverse. You conflate things which are wholly separate simply because they use similar terms.
Already debunked. Ragnarok in this story was a Low 1-A event and the TWSAIS came in to announce the end of the multiverse to Odin, reinforcing that the entire multiverse's death would benefit them and only them. Only reason why Loki even bothered them at all to begin with was because he was using his powers as the God of Stories to protect the story of the Last Battle, thus shielding it from being automatically consumed by the TWSAIS, who were offended by it.
> As evidenced by them failing to consume the story when Loki withheld it I guess.
Debunked above.
> Bold claim to make. Do you have evidence for that? Or is that merely your headcanon. If you have no scans to support this we may as well throw this claim in the trash.
House of Ideas storyline. Nyx is the embodiment of the darkness before reality and in her full state she is 1-A. Not like it is particularly relevant other than backing up the fact that multiple pantheons have 1-A interpretations of their own void(s).
> And I don't care if Thor is on the same level as the Shadow Seat Boys, my point is that the scene you keep bringing up again and again and again and again is a feat for cosmic awareness and nothing else. Seeing beyond something is not the same as conceptually existing beyond something.
I don't care about what that statement means for Thor. I am using it to back up the TWSAIS, not Thor (even though it also applies to Thor, since we see him going to Ginnungagap to match the TWSAIS, having ascended to their level). Already said this millions of times.
> Unfortunately, I don't think the scan is showing all you're saying. All we see is a big wound in the tree trunk, and the trunk around it shrivels and contracts around the wound. We don't get any confirmation that Thor destroyed all of Yggdrasil, which I personally seriously doubt because Asgard and the other realms still exist in this story after Thor does this. Which would contradict the notion that Thor completely destroyed the entirety of the tree.
The other realms still existing after Thor frees them from the Great Cycle is irrelevant to the events prior that. It is clearly shown that he destroyed the Full Tree. He even stated that he'd bring Ragnarok by his own hand. The Norns are established to create and weave the Stories for everything in the Norse Realms, even across all space and time and across all dimensions in the multiverse, and we see in the Agent of Asgard storyline that the Stories encompass the World Tree; the story of the Last Battle was going to be the "ultimate death of the World Tree and the rest of the omniverse", so for Thor to destroy their tapestry, he'd need to destroy the Yggdrasil, and the representation of the Tree shriveling up and fading away clearly shows just that.
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A few things:
- Ragnarok was portrayed as a local event of the Norse gods in the Loki series before the Secret Wars event, that was occurring as a result of the multiversal collapse caused by the Beyonders, not the other way around. I.e. the collapse triggered Ragnarok, but Ragnarok did not trigger the collapse, much less encompass all of it.
- TWSAIS explicitly wanted to consume the essences of said Norse gods kept safe by Loki, not the entire story of the Marvel multiverse. To claim otherwise is a massive misrepresentation.
- Transcending an uncountably infinite-dimensional reality (for which higher dimensions are treated as higher infinities) is usually only one step higher in the hierarchy of infinity, i.e. still Low 1-A, not 1-A.
- Cosmic awareness still does not remotely automatically translate into raw power.
- All voids are a part of Oblivion, including the vacuum of space and Ginnungagap, but that does not remotely automatically make them comparable to his full scale of power.
- Loki, who is still the god of stories, has since consistently been depicted at a comparatively very low power level by our standards, and he had no problem surviving outside of the multiverse. Neither had his ghost friend. Neither had the Silver Surfer with his human girlfriend. Neither had Glorian.
- Nothing in the provided scans remotely states that the Norns weave the stories defining the entire multiverse. They are consistently treated as local deities responsible for the nine realms/universes, and in fact were said to be threatened by Malekith's armies in one of the provided scans. They do not remotely qualify as multiversal cosmic entities.
- Make an effort to keep a polite and respectful tone. A few users are veering this in a trolling/deliberately mocking direction toward Matthew.
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Wait why couldn't the whole thing about Raganork end the moment someone brought up TWSAIS literally saying that even though RAGANORK was stopped by RKT they still feed off WAR and STORIES as concepts, not just RAGANORK itself which is an extension of both of these concepts, literally the first scan loki meets them talks about that.
I think this is just getting desperate at this point, and as I said a dozen times before, if we are just going to keep going in circles then I don't see a reason this thread should be continued on second thought.
Also, why is the evidence for TWSAIS being in gingunnap literally just checking a completely black background, which could represent literally any Void we could see, and if the argument is contingent on backgrounds then it doesn't matter since the Outside was white in Loki Agent of Asgard, and the void there was specifically percieved by a Norse God and TWSAIS incase anyone tries pulling a "Lol perception" argument
I think this is just getting desperate at this point, and as I said a dozen times before, if we are just going to keep going in circles then I don't see a reason this thread should be continued on second thought.
Also, why is the evidence for TWSAIS being in gingunnap literally just checking a completely black background, which could represent literally any Void we could see, and if the argument is contingent on backgrounds then it doesn't matter since the Outside was white in Loki Agent of Asgard, and the void there was specifically percieved by a Norse God and TWSAIS incase anyone tries pulling a "Lol perception" argument
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> Loki doesn't have resistance to being in outside.
R. He doesn't need he's immortal and his girlfriend is already dead.
> Neither had the Silver Surfer with his human girlfriend. Neither had Glorian.
R. Glorian have the power cosmic from the shaper of Worlds and can make people survive in the outside as well.
To be a multiversal entity doesn't mean that this being need to 2-A or 1-A. He only need to work with one concept of that scale likethe norns. They can make the destiny of the realms but they can be killed by the army of malekith for example and this doesn't even scale to the upgrade that is RKT dstroing the yggdrasil.
@Hyuuu
And the color of the outside is the worst argument ever. The outside was both black and white in both Ewing run's (Loki agent of Asgard and The Ultimates) ad he still the same concept.
R. He doesn't need he's immortal and his girlfriend is already dead.
> Neither had the Silver Surfer with his human girlfriend. Neither had Glorian.
R. Glorian have the power cosmic from the shaper of Worlds and can make people survive in the outside as well.
To be a multiversal entity doesn't mean that this being need to 2-A or 1-A. He only need to work with one concept of that scale likethe norns. They can make the destiny of the realms but they can be killed by the army of malekith for example and this doesn't even scale to the upgrade that is RKT dstroing the yggdrasil.
@Hyuuu
And the color of the outside is the worst argument ever. The outside was both black and white in both Ewing run's (Loki agent of Asgard and The Ultimates) ad he still the same concept.
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You don't need to be 1-A to survive in the Outside. That's a non argument, and the very examples you bring show the evidence against your claim.
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Of course, this is getting rather desperate at this point and I would would agree with Antvasima and Hykuu. No upgrade is actually happening.
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It's getting harder and harder to debate meaningfully in this thread at this point.
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Literally not an ounce of evidence being provided after my posts. Just the same thing being repeated over and over again as if it meant anything
> Ragnarok was portrayed as a local event of the Norse gods in the Loki series before the Secret Wars event, that was occurring as a result of the multiversal collapse caused by the Beyonders, not the other way around. I.e. the collapse triggered Ragnarok, but Ragnarok did not trigger the collapse.
No one ever said Ragnarok triggered the collapse of the multiverse. Please pay close attention to the arguments.
> Much less encompass all of it
As my scans prove, this is hella incorrect. The term "Ragnarok" was being used several times to refer to the end of the entire multiverse in that story. The Story of the "Last Battle" of the Asgardians was stated to be the story that came in just moments prior to the end of the omniverse, and as we see in the chapter where Loki saves that story, it did happen.
I am not interested in arguing "no it didn't happen!" without scans, so if you're interested on engaging in a debate, bring scans to the table.
> TWSAIS explicitly wanted to consume the essences of said Norse gods kept safe by Loki, not the entire story of the Marvel multiverse. To claim otherwise is a massive misrepresentation.
The scans say otherwise. Sorry.
> Transcending an uncountably infinite-dimensional reality (for which higher dimensions are treated as higher infinities) is usually only one step higher in the hierarchy of infinity, i.e. still Low 1-A, not 1-A.
Incorrect. A void that predates all of existence and exists beyond the structure of a Low 1-A multiverse is always considered 1-A.
> Cosmic awareness still does not remotely automatically translate into raw power.
No one ever claimed it did. For the fifth time. I couldn't care less about what that statement means for Thor. I care about what it means for TWSAIS, who were the ones being referred to as "beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" in that scan.
> All voids are a part of Oblivion, including the vacuum of space and Ginnungagap, but that does not remotely automatically make them comparable to his full scale of power.
Doesn't matter, it has 1-A statements by itself without requiring powerscaling to Oblivion.
> Loki, who is still the god of stories, has since consistently been depicted at a comparatively very low power level by our standards, and he had no problem surviving outside of the multiverse. Neither had his ghost friend. Neither had the Silver Surfer with his human girlfriend. Neither had Glorian.
Irrelevant, no one is talking about Loki or his friends. We're talking about the TWSAIS, who are both referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality and natural inhabitants of the Outside.
> Nothing in the provided scans remotely states that the Norns weave the stories defining the entire multiverse. They are consistently treated as local deities responsible for the nine realms/universes, and in fact were said to be threatened by Malekith's armies in one of the provided scans. They do not remotely qualify as multiversal cosmic entities.
Not like it matters considering it still proves my point that Yggdrasil was destroyed, but the Norns were explicitly stated to have woven the fates for all Thors across the "many dimensions of reality" in my scan.
> Ragnarok was portrayed as a local event of the Norse gods in the Loki series before the Secret Wars event, that was occurring as a result of the multiversal collapse caused by the Beyonders, not the other way around. I.e. the collapse triggered Ragnarok, but Ragnarok did not trigger the collapse.
No one ever said Ragnarok triggered the collapse of the multiverse. Please pay close attention to the arguments.
> Much less encompass all of it
As my scans prove, this is hella incorrect. The term "Ragnarok" was being used several times to refer to the end of the entire multiverse in that story. The Story of the "Last Battle" of the Asgardians was stated to be the story that came in just moments prior to the end of the omniverse, and as we see in the chapter where Loki saves that story, it did happen.
I am not interested in arguing "no it didn't happen!" without scans, so if you're interested on engaging in a debate, bring scans to the table.
> TWSAIS explicitly wanted to consume the essences of said Norse gods kept safe by Loki, not the entire story of the Marvel multiverse. To claim otherwise is a massive misrepresentation.
The scans say otherwise. Sorry.
> Transcending an uncountably infinite-dimensional reality (for which higher dimensions are treated as higher infinities) is usually only one step higher in the hierarchy of infinity, i.e. still Low 1-A, not 1-A.
Incorrect. A void that predates all of existence and exists beyond the structure of a Low 1-A multiverse is always considered 1-A.
> Cosmic awareness still does not remotely automatically translate into raw power.
No one ever claimed it did. For the fifth time. I couldn't care less about what that statement means for Thor. I care about what it means for TWSAIS, who were the ones being referred to as "beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" in that scan.
> All voids are a part of Oblivion, including the vacuum of space and Ginnungagap, but that does not remotely automatically make them comparable to his full scale of power.
Doesn't matter, it has 1-A statements by itself without requiring powerscaling to Oblivion.
> Loki, who is still the god of stories, has since consistently been depicted at a comparatively very low power level by our standards, and he had no problem surviving outside of the multiverse. Neither had his ghost friend. Neither had the Silver Surfer with his human girlfriend. Neither had Glorian.
Irrelevant, no one is talking about Loki or his friends. We're talking about the TWSAIS, who are both referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality and natural inhabitants of the Outside.
> Nothing in the provided scans remotely states that the Norns weave the stories defining the entire multiverse. They are consistently treated as local deities responsible for the nine realms/universes, and in fact were said to be threatened by Malekith's armies in one of the provided scans. They do not remotely qualify as multiversal cosmic entities.
Not like it matters considering it still proves my point that Yggdrasil was destroyed, but the Norns were explicitly stated to have woven the fates for all Thors across the "many dimensions of reality" in my scan.
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If anything, it appears as if the opposite side is the one getting "more desperate" as this thread goes along. More and more evidence is slowly getting brought to the table to support 1-A TWSAIS. But I don't dwell on personal rants:
> Wait why couldn't the whole thing about Raganork end the moment someone brought up TWSAIS literally saying that even though RAGANORK was stopped by RKT they still feed off WAR and STORIES as concepts, not just RAGANORK itself which is an extension of both of these concepts, literally the first scan loki meets them talks about that.
Okay, but what is your point with this? No offense, but you have a very bad way of punctuating and formulating your posts, and it makes your arguments harder to understand. Please make an effort to get better on that regard.
> Also, why is the evidence for TWSAIS being in gingunnap literally just checking a completely black background, which could represent literally any Void we could see, and if the argument is contingent on backgrounds then it doesn't matter since the Outside was white in Loki Agent of Asgard, and the void there was specifically percieved by a Norse God and TWSAIS incase anyone tries pulling a "Lol perception" argument
Anyone who reads the storyline can see why.
Thor finds out what lies beyond all time and space - the blank void of Ginnungagap - and the truth behind the Great Cycle, and knows what he must do to avert it.
The TWSAIS summon Thor to their realm (albeit Odin's spirit is the one carrying him to it, the TWSAIS state moment later that they were the ones to summon him to their realm), which is depicted as a blank, black void, and Thor states;
So yes, the TWSAIS' realm is Ginnugagap. To claim otherwise is to ignore the story.
Also, if you're seriously using the color of the Outside as an argument, the first scene where the TWSAIS are stated to exist "beyond all realities" specifically portrays it as black, just like it was in the original 1998 Thor story.
> Wait why couldn't the whole thing about Raganork end the moment someone brought up TWSAIS literally saying that even though RAGANORK was stopped by RKT they still feed off WAR and STORIES as concepts, not just RAGANORK itself which is an extension of both of these concepts, literally the first scan loki meets them talks about that.
Okay, but what is your point with this? No offense, but you have a very bad way of punctuating and formulating your posts, and it makes your arguments harder to understand. Please make an effort to get better on that regard.
> Also, why is the evidence for TWSAIS being in gingunnap literally just checking a completely black background, which could represent literally any Void we could see, and if the argument is contingent on backgrounds then it doesn't matter since the Outside was white in Loki Agent of Asgard, and the void there was specifically percieved by a Norse God and TWSAIS incase anyone tries pulling a "Lol perception" argument
Anyone who reads the storyline can see why.
Thor finds out what lies beyond all time and space - the blank void of Ginnungagap - and the truth behind the Great Cycle, and knows what he must do to avert it.
The TWSAIS summon Thor to their realm (albeit Odin's spirit is the one carrying him to it, the TWSAIS state moment later that they were the ones to summon him to their realm), which is depicted as a blank, black void, and Thor states;
So yes, the TWSAIS' realm is Ginnugagap. To claim otherwise is to ignore the story.
Also, if you're seriously using the color of the Outside as an argument, the first scene where the TWSAIS are stated to exist "beyond all realities" specifically portrays it as black, just like it was in the original 1998 Thor story.
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Also, a new thread should be made to continue this one soon, since it's about to hit 500 posts.
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Literally not an ounce of evidence being provided after my posts. Just the same thing being repeated over and over again as if it meant anything
The point is that none of your so-called "proof" says what you claim that it does.
No one ever said Ragnarok triggered the collapse of the multiverse. Please pay close attention to the arguments.
If I understood correctly it has been claimed that TWSAIS feeding on the local event of the Norse gods doing final battle when the last two universes collided was equivalent on them absorbing the story of the multiverse itself. That is not true. It was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept from them.
As my scans prove, this is hella incorrect. The term "Ragnarok" was being used several times to refer to the end of the entire multiverse in that story. The Story of the "Last Battle" of the Asgardians was stated to be the story that came in just moments prior to the end of the omniverse, and as we see in the chapter where Loki saves that story, it did happen.
Again, this was a case of the last two universes colliding triggering a local event, not the other way around.
I am not interested in arguing "no it didn't happen!" without scans, so if you're interested on engaging in a debate, bring scans to the table.
I already work at least 12 hours a day trying to make sure that this wiki keeps somewhat organised and does not collapse. There are limits to how much you can demand from me. I am perfectly capable of remembering stories that I read earlier and of reading and evaluating your own scans though.
The scans say otherwise. Sorry.
If I remember correctly, it was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept safe from them.
Incorrect. A void that predates all of existence and exists beyond the structure of a Low 1-A multiverse is always considered 1-A.
Not necessarily, and at best this would just be about scaling to Yggdrasil, not to the entity Oblivion itself.
No one ever claimed it did. For the fifth time. I couldn't care less about what that statement means for Thor. I care about what it means for TWSAIS, who were the ones being referred to as "beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" in that scan.
Please show a scan that explicitly states this in reference to TWSAIS, rather than Thor's ability to perceive reality.
Doesn't matter, it has 1-A statements by itself without requiring powerscaling to Oblivion.
The point is that there doesn't seem to be any reliable proof that Ginnugagap refers to the void preceding all space and time of the entire multiverse.
Irrelevant, no one is talking about Loki or his friends. We're talking about the TWSAIS, who are both referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality and natural inhabitants of the Outside.
They have never been referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality, and much of your argument hinges on that it requires a Low 1-A or higher nature to survive outside of the multiverse. This has been proven blatantly false.
Not like it matters considering it still proves my point that Yggdrasil was destroyed, but the Norns were explicitly stated to have woven the fates for all Thors across the "many dimensions of reality" in my scan.
Please link to your scan again, because I do not remember seeing anything noteworthy within them earlier. Much of this argument has also hinged on scaling from that the Norns supposedly transcend a countlessly infinite-dimensional multiverse, or at least control the fates of everybody and everything within it, regardless of scale. This is not true either.
The point is that none of your so-called "proof" says what you claim that it does.
No one ever said Ragnarok triggered the collapse of the multiverse. Please pay close attention to the arguments.
If I understood correctly it has been claimed that TWSAIS feeding on the local event of the Norse gods doing final battle when the last two universes collided was equivalent on them absorbing the story of the multiverse itself. That is not true. It was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept from them.
As my scans prove, this is hella incorrect. The term "Ragnarok" was being used several times to refer to the end of the entire multiverse in that story. The Story of the "Last Battle" of the Asgardians was stated to be the story that came in just moments prior to the end of the omniverse, and as we see in the chapter where Loki saves that story, it did happen.
Again, this was a case of the last two universes colliding triggering a local event, not the other way around.
I am not interested in arguing "no it didn't happen!" without scans, so if you're interested on engaging in a debate, bring scans to the table.
I already work at least 12 hours a day trying to make sure that this wiki keeps somewhat organised and does not collapse. There are limits to how much you can demand from me. I am perfectly capable of remembering stories that I read earlier and of reading and evaluating your own scans though.
The scans say otherwise. Sorry.
If I remember correctly, it was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept safe from them.
Incorrect. A void that predates all of existence and exists beyond the structure of a Low 1-A multiverse is always considered 1-A.
Not necessarily, and at best this would just be about scaling to Yggdrasil, not to the entity Oblivion itself.
No one ever claimed it did. For the fifth time. I couldn't care less about what that statement means for Thor. I care about what it means for TWSAIS, who were the ones being referred to as "beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" in that scan.
Please show a scan that explicitly states this in reference to TWSAIS, rather than Thor's ability to perceive reality.
Doesn't matter, it has 1-A statements by itself without requiring powerscaling to Oblivion.
The point is that there doesn't seem to be any reliable proof that Ginnugagap refers to the void preceding all space and time of the entire multiverse.
Irrelevant, no one is talking about Loki or his friends. We're talking about the TWSAIS, who are both referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality and natural inhabitants of the Outside.
They have never been referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality, and much of your argument hinges on that it requires a Low 1-A or higher nature to survive outside of the multiverse. This has been proven blatantly false.
Not like it matters considering it still proves my point that Yggdrasil was destroyed, but the Norns were explicitly stated to have woven the fates for all Thors across the "many dimensions of reality" in my scan.
Please link to your scan again, because I do not remember seeing anything noteworthy within them earlier. Much of this argument has also hinged on scaling from that the Norns supposedly transcend a countlessly infinite-dimensional multiverse, or at least control the fates of everybody and everything within it, regardless of scale. This is not true either.
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@Kepekley
The two scans that you linked to do not remotely draw any explicit connection between TWSAIS and Ginnungap. They just explain that Thor has achieved a heightened level of perception that allows him to see reality for what it is, including the nature of TWSAIS.
The two scans that you linked to do not remotely draw any explicit connection between TWSAIS and Ginnungap. They just explain that Thor has achieved a heightened level of perception that allows him to see reality for what it is, including the nature of TWSAIS.
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I have done so: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3942007Kepekley23 said:
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