Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyone?

I have already said that I don't think it's a particular stretch to have a High 1-B or Low 1-A Yggdrasil based on the new Al Ewing / Agent of Asgard / God of Stories stuff. The problem is trying to apply that to Pre-Secret Wars Marvel cosmology. Or at least, hand-cherrypicking stuff from old comics to try and pretend this was always the case.

If the OP of the first thread had focused solely on more modern scans to make their case, I feel the end result would have been much stronger overall. Instead we got a rather disjointed mess that was heavily reminiscent of Seed's Marvel Threads.

 

[Alonik]

When you have over 10 scans talking one thing, then yes, it's always the same case.

And it's something much more reliable that consistency, than to say "it's inconsistent, because yes"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm sorry Alonik but both the OP, myself and others have looked into the various scans you presented and failed to agree with the case you're making. You can just dismiss every person who disagrees with you by pretending your position is objectively right. Specially when you make use of very tenuous scans that have differing interpretations.

 

[Alonik]

Well, many others looked and agreed, and since the case is appealing to several people and not for what is written in the scan in fact, most on the other thread agreed more than they opposed.

And I showed no ambiguous scans or anything like that, the interpretation of who quickly read the run with the intention of opposing the OP was this. Besides you can also pretend this and as was the case with the other OP.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You showed A LOT of ambiguous scans, ALonik. The mere fact that the OP was able to analyze and deconstruct virtually all of your scans proves that such a claim is objectively false. If they were unambiguous w e wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Alonik]

He couldn't, he just manipulated the scans. And I showed it clearly.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He couldn't, he just manipulated the scans. And I showed it clearly.

"You couldn't. You just manipulated the scans out of context. And he showed it clearly."

Do you see the problem with just making umbrella statements like that? The discussion gets reduced to "Nuh uh!" "No u!" non-statements.

 

[Alonik]

Well, you should give yourself the example of this, because whoever started this was you, so I would strongly recommend that you drop it.

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously agree with Matthew. Thank you for helping out.

Anyway, we need more input. Is somebody willing to ask the other members that I mentioned to comment here?

 

[Antvasima]

I restored Alonik's old reply.

 

[Antvasima]

I also asked all of the members that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, I am extremely tired of this argument, so that likely affects my sense of judgement. Anyway, alright then. I still find this very exaggerated and to use patchwork scaling, but I suppose that you can upgrade Rune King Thor and Those Who Sit Above In Shadow to Low 1-A, but then you need to write footnote explanations in the Thor, Odin, and Surtur pages regarding that other Yggdrasil feats that only affect the local 9 or 10 universes only scale to 2-C.

Yeah this scaling works for me. But at some point we're going to have to make clear seperations between older and newer concepts.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Agree with Qawsedf234.

Simply put, Marvel is changing a lot of things and I certainly don't mind all of them. But we are going to have to start some kind of seperation for certain things and characters. It's just kind of getting to the point that I feel like we're reaching critical mass. I feel like we're turning the verse and the characters upside down and reevaluating things like every few weeks.

 

[Elizio33]

Yeah this scaling works for me. But at some point we're going to have to make clear seperations between older and newer concepts.

I agree with Qawsedf234 and C2 of Omegon as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as the three of you seemed to agree with, I think that we are using far too much retroactive patchwork scaling for Marvel, even though it largely does not fit this type of very self-contradictory shared setting, which recurrently results in extremely exaggerated statistics, but I am not sure how we can solve the problem.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Essitently, in my opinion, we have sorta clarify when Marvel/DC began to change their views regarding this stuff. In the 70s and 80s the writers were using a different cosmology than what they're using now, which leads to issue with Low 1-A Skyfathers and such.

Similar to what we do with Carol, I just say use the first major story arc that introduced the change and use it as a separation point.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's already been explained why this would not scale to the Skyfathers, no matter what interpretation.

 

[Luck100]

Why this upgrade would scale skyfathers ? In the main page the upgrade was only for Thor and Yggdrasil (cosmology).

 

[The_Impress]

This does seem unscalable I reckon for any character other than Thor, skyfathers should absolutely not scale to this.

I legitimately think we should use a reasonable time stamp or event use it to define "Classic" and "Modern" keys for all profiles, as there have been many soft reboots within Marvel, and these characters have evolved in significant ways, to the point some are unrecognizable in their strength, and it's getting harder to pretend these characters hold the same strength previously associated with them, case in point, characters such as Captain Marvel, Thor, Hulk and Spider-Man, who have clearly shown far greater capabilities than before.

 

[Antvasima]

It depends a bit from character to character when they started to get upgraded though.

 

[Luck100]

But classic and modern have failed to classified some heroes like Doctor Strange for example.

 

[Alonik]

I think the most responsible thing to do is see how the concepts are worked on the proper storyline, and not sort for times because irresponsibility of several writers among example: Strange pictured on his solo comic and then being misportrayed in avengers by another writer.

Thor comics, at each volume they firm establish the same storyline since Journey into Mystery #82, so much so that odin's plan of v1 is always remembered, and until recently in Loki Then and Now told Loki that Thor's storyline can only be contained within his comics and not in him as a character.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Marvel does have "ages" like it's counterpart DC. The golden age, which ran from 1938-1955, silver age of 1955-1969, the bronze age of 1970-1979, the copper age of 1984 -1991 and the modern age from 1992-present.

 

[Luck100]

Marvel does have "ages" like it's counterpart DC. The golden age, which ran from 1938-1955, silver age of 1955-1969, the bronze age of 1970-1979, the copper age of 1984 -1991 and the modern age from 1992-present.

Yes, but Marvel dont retconned events and the feats are not forgoten in most of the cases.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Marvel has never done any big Continuity Reboots (With the exception of Secret Wars), but it's very obvious that a lot of things change over time.

Hell, the character of The One Above All, for example, is a relatively recent creation, and a lot of his "earlier mentions and appearances" were just random things that have been retconned to be he.

 

[Alonik]

Now just try to show that the storyline of what was addressed has been changed, parallel cases are just parallel cases, do not justify for anything, after all storyline of what was debated is continually repeated making it consistent.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I read the last thread and I generally agree with Matt's sentiment about a lot of the scans, but I don't really have an issue with this upgrade as it currently stands (just Ygg, TWSAIS, RKT).

 

[Antvasima]

Do you have suggestions regarding how we should word the footnote explanation texts to avoid that others try to scale Surtur and Odin to the Yggdrasil?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Rough idea:

Notes:

• Due to Surtur stating that the full scope of Yggdrasil is beyond him in power, do not try scaling him, Odin, or the other Skyfathers to it.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, but I am concerned that any time Yggdrasil shows up in the future, and is portrayed as encompassing 9 or 10 universes as usual, we will still scale anybody who threatens it to Low 1-A.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Eh, strange did say this, not sure if that means anything.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Yeah, anyone trying to do that would need to be corrected, unless the story made it explicitly clear it was following the Ewing idea.

 

[Antvasima]

We preferably need to clarify this in footnotes in the Thor and possibly Odin and Surtur pages, as a precaution.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Eh, strange did say this, not sure if that means anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he was empowered by Yggdrasil, but I strongly doubt that he was Low 1-A.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I share my doubts as well, it's just that he commented that this is the most magic he's every had in his life, which sorta makes me think otherwise.

 

[Alonik]

i think that strange should not reach such high levels, he himself says he took a part of the power only, and it would be very weird Dr. Strange and Void scalling from him for low 1-A

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

You think he should stay where he currently is?

 

[Alonik]

Sorry it took a while, i was playing. About the level of strange I can not comment much on, I just understand the relationship between him and yggdrasil, because I read the context, the whole run I could not read because I had not had time.

For me it seems to be quite good to stay in this tier, besides that the power that he took, is just a part of it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I suppose so, but I am concerned that any time Yggdrasil shows up in the future, and is portrayed as encompassing 9 or 10 universes as usual, we will still scale anybody who threatens it to Low 1-A.

That obviously shouldn't be done.