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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

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Didn't even see this.

> In regards to Ginnungagap being 1-A, there is more than enough evidence to the contrary. The realm there literally cannot be 1-A when it is physically in the middle of Muspellheim and Niflheim

This has already been refuted. Ginnungagan can't be "physically between" Niflheim and Muspellheim when it is the infinite void that exists before all the Nine Realms and the World Tree that contains them, which would include Niflheim and Muspellheim.

> which are situated north and south of the Gap respectively.

So what?

Oblivion called himself the void that existed as the "breadth" between life and death at one point. Breadth is, of course, the measurable physical gap that exists between two things. Is Oblivion not 1-A now, just because spatial analogies are used to describe what he is?

Or the Far Shore, which is a 1-A void beyond all levels of space and time yet is stated to be the "far reaches of the multiverse" and the "farthest point in all space". Is it not 1-A now because of those analogies?

And no, none of this disproves anything.

> And this here definitely proves that you don't have to be 1-A to survive in Ginnungagap because random normal ass fire and ice Giants can meet there just fine.

So what? The argument is not about going to Ginnungagap and surviving. It's about not only naturally residing in it, but being relative to its level of existence and transcending all dimensionality alongside the void itself.
 
It all matters because Ginnungagap isn't a 1-A Void. It predates the Nine Worlds, but two of these worlds that spawned from it are situated halfway between the two realms.

Again, another creation myth, this time from War of the Realms which is super recent. Once agai, South and North and only Ten Realms in the World Tree.

In another recent storyline, Volstagg destroyed Muspellheim and then he and Jane Foster ended up in the Yawning Void. Which is depicted exactly like this sca you people use so much (Which also uses the North and South statement), because both are issues from the same storyline by the same author.

Why is this important? Because then Volstagg and Jane start fighting and not only can we see their blows shaking and affecting the cloudy skies(!) of Ginnungagap, but also THEIR BATTLE CAN BE PHYSICALLY SEEN FROM HEVEN

Showing that indeed, absolutely definitively, Ginnungagap is a physical place situated between the realms which can be seen from the realms and accessed from the realms. Two realms in particular are directly North and South of it, for goodness sake.
 
"Oblivion called himself the void that existed as the "breadth" between life and death at one point. Breadth is, of course, the measurable physical gap that exists between two things. Is Oblivion not 1-A now, just because spatial analogies are used to describe what he is?"

Life and Death as concepts are abstract, there's no physical space between them, and again, this was just Oblivion's flowery speech regarding him being the nothingess between two states of existence, which is further shown by him saying he's also between heaven and hell. He even finishes the story with, "lies within lies, plans within plans, truths within truths" which already shows those statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

"Or the Far Shore, which is a 1-A void beyond all levels of space and time yet is stated to be the "far reaches of the multiverse" and the "farthest point in all space". Is it not 1-A now because of those analogies?"

You already tried using this analogy last time, I explained the far reaches of the multiverse aren't a limiter also the multiverse itself could be 1-A within the right cosmology, which doesn't even relate to the topic at hand here. And the "farthest point in all space" was just used interchangeably with "The farthest point in all the multiverse" as shown in the context, the difference here is of course the lack of context which supports Göönönönönönöguanp sharing the same nature, and no, old comics about it being beyond the cosmic architecture mean absolutely nothing in regards to far more recent comics which show it's location directly.

Also, why does a Void before all the realms mean the Void itself is outside of them aswell? It's literally stated the flames of muspelheim and the ice of niflheim met at the center of Gingunnap to create everything, this is the most consistent creation myth throughout all the scans.

"So what? The argument is not about going to Ginnungagap and surviving. It's about not only naturally residing in it, but being relative to its level of existence and transcending all dimensionality alongside the void itself."

Jesus, kep you realize the argument for them being relative to it's level of existence is them being "natural residents" in it, right? Unless you have something new to put on the table.
 
Going to respond to literally all of that in just a few moments. Busy with something on Discord right now.
 
Hello! Finally back home.

> Again, another creation myth, this time from War of the Realms which is super recent. Once again, South and North and only Ten Realms in the World Tree.

Literally none of this matters, as I've already explained. The idea of two opposite points in the void being metaphorically referred to as "North" and "South" in no way serves as a valid argument against the void's nature.

The idea of metaphorical aspatiotemporal voids being referred to as "space beyond spaces" is rampant throughout stories where writers deal with cosmic Marvel:

All mentions and instances of concepts and words that usually refer to "distance" in the void are just metaphorical analogies, ways of referring to each individual point. If this weren't the case, writers would literally be unable to talk to 1-A voids, since every word used to describe both physical and non-physicals location in our language do so within the confines of space and time. Where, when, place, space, location, realm, boundaries, far away, north, south, east. All of those adjectives, verbs and terms pertain strictly to the concepts of space and time, yet several franchises use those exact same terms to describe their own Outerversal voids before creation. And even Marvel Comics itself:

I can quote from several other stories or go over the Far Shore and Oblivion again, but in summary, not a single shred of this is enough to prove anything, notwithstanding when weighed against the multitude of scans explicitly showing otherwise I have analyzed above.

> In another recent storyline, Volstagg destroyed Muspellheim and then he and Jane Foster ended up in the Yawning Void. Which is depicted exactly like this scan you people use so much (Which also uses the North and South statement), because both are issues from the same storyline by the same author.

Why is this important? Because then Volstagg and Jane start fighting and not only can we see their blows shaking and affecting the cloudy skies(!) of Ginnungagap, but also THEIR BATTLE CAN BE PHYSICALLY SEEN FROM HEVEN

Okay. First off, just about everything in this paragraph is either completely wrong or out of context. As a result, I'll need to tackle it all individually.

I. On Volstagg destroying Muspelheim and ending in Ginnungagap as a result: we head off to a good start; already wrong, because that's not what happened. Thor used his magic to transport the two to the realm.

And just to prevent people from yelling out "but the realm being accessed by Thor's magic proves it is not 1-A!!" right off the bat. So what?

So that potential argument collapses before it even begins.

II. On Ginnungagap having cloudy skies; there is so much that is wrong and out-of-context with this argument that I don't even know where to start, but amusingly I can do it from the very same scans you posted:

The very same scan you posted states that Ginnungagap is a void of "great, unending nothingness", which obviously means that any cloudy skies would be obviously non-literal and just the artist taking liberty with his designs.

But even more amusingly is what your "triumphal" scan that you even bolded for emphasis states:

Your very own creme-de-la-creme scan states that the cloudy storms in Ginnungagap are not a property of the void, but something borne out of the battle taking place in there.

So you pretty much shot yourself in the foot with your own scan. And even if the artist actually portrayed it as having cloudy skies, that would be irrelevant. The Below Place is 1-A yet it was portrayed as containing electrical storms and charged clouds (which Hykuu handwaved as "not the true form of the realm just an avatar", which, as I will explain below, only points to him shooting himself and his argument in the foot even further)

And no, once again, literally none of those 2 scans are enough to prove the multitude of scans I quoted in my original analysis of every argument and angle are all wrong. Not the least Jane Foster being capable of holding a battle in there. As I have already explained and proven, the Abstract Entities in Marvel, and even physical or non-physical locations, can shift their nature and appearance in order to become less metaphysical and more substantial for the benefit of entities with lower minds incapable of comprehending the full nature of what they entail, as Drax explained:

  • The universe we live in is wild and raw, but sometimes it gives itself a little structure and meaning, sometimes it simplifies itself so we can understand it. Entropy, Death, Eternity, Chaos. They weren't real people. They were just concepts. Avatars.Just like this place. The universe has simplified itself so that we can grasp its meaning for a moment.
The Outside, and thus Ginnungagap by proxy, itself has shown an instance of this principle. When Deadpool and Thanos leave the multiverse and go to the Outside in order to rescue the caged Death, it is stated:

Does this directly apply to Ginnungagap? Yes, it does.

It is repeatedly reinforced that Thor obtained a "sight beyond all sight", and that his newfound ability to see beyond all levels of time and into the true form of Ginnungagap, herein defined as the void "beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture", is something "past the knowing of the gods". Which is further confirmed when Thor ascends to the void and faces the TWSAIS, who confirm that to them, the gods are nothing but toys and that their shadows, which Thor now sees past into Ginnungagap itself, cloaked the vision of all the Gods.

So yes, the true Ginnungagap is beyond what the Gods can comprehend and know, and thus that scan where Jane Foster and Valrog fight in the void is irrelevant to the discussion.

Oh, and just as an addendum/note to cap this, you linked a scan to this map of the Nine Realms and the World Tree. The funny thing is that this happens to be yet another part of the story you use as an argument, yet actually debunks the point you're trying to make when read inside its context. Notice how literally none of that map describes or points to Ginnungagap's alleged physical location, not the least between Niflheim and Muspelheim as you swear the void to be located at, even though this map is being superimposed over the narrator explaining the story of the Yawning Void, meaning it can't be handwaved as the artist having short attention span. And here, from the same story, another map of the World Tree and its realms, which also does not list Ginnungagap's appearance anywhere. Both going on to show even further that Ginnungagap is not physically connected to the Nine Realms in the slightest, aside from it being the Norse interpretation of how existence came to be.

Overall I suggest you attempt to take a more in-depth look at your scans before using them as an argument next time, lest you lead to your own point collapsing on itself.

> >mfw ignoring all the other major points that show Ginnungagap is a realm physically between two realms.

None of those points exist, as I have gone on above, so he is more than right to ignore them. And it makes literally no sense for Ginnungangap to be located physically between two realms when the very scans you preach repeatedly reinforce the notion that the Yawning Void is an infinite timeless abyss of cosmic nothingness from which all the Nine Realms, and even the World Tree that transcends and connects them, sprang from to begin with.

The idea that Ginnungagap is physically located between Muspelheim and Niflheim has been debunked, is contradicted by pretty much every single story, and makes no sense with the lore to begin with. That's how shady of an argument it is.

And now we tackle Hykuu's supposed rebuttals to my points. Do they hold true upon further inspection? Spoiler alert: no, they don't.

> Life and Death as concepts are abstract, there's no physical space between them, and again, this was just Oblivion's flowery speech regarding him being the nothingess between two states of existence, which is further shown by him saying he's also between heaven and hell. He even finishes the story with, "lies within lies, plans within plans, truths within truths" which already shows those statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

You colossally missed the entire conclusion of my argument. The whole point flew over your head. You speak of it being a metaphorical flowery way of speaking of the nothingness, when that was literally the point I was trying to make to begin with: that Ginnungagap's "North" and "South" are metaphorical analogies to talk about the space existing beyond space itself, and as I've proven above, it's hella right.

And that wasn't even the story I was talking about. I was talking about the original 1985 Iceman run. Oblivion's statement about lies within lies is a reference to the fact that every single person or entity who goes out of their way to craft a plan to end the Multiverse is acting as his agent/avatar, directly or indirectly, and thus Scrier's plan to end all reality is nothing more than his plan to end all reality. So once again you took something out of context to support your position.

> You already tried using this analogy last time, I explained the far reaches of the multiverse aren't a limiter also the multiverse itself could be 1-A within the right cosmology, which doesn't even relate to the topic at hand here. And the "farthest point in all space" was just used interchangeably with "The farthest point in all the multiverse" as shown in the context

No offense, but as I've already told you in the past, you're kinda just all over the place with your grammatical structure. Try to make your points a little bit easier to comprehend, otherwise you just come across as rambling without direction, even if that's not your intention.

1. Anyway, once again, my point flies over your head, and while you're at it you actually make points that support my side: namely, the fact that all "south", "north", "distance", "farthest/far away" statements that suggest the existence of literal, cardinal physicality are as just as metaphorical and analogous in nature to the Far Shore as they are to Ginnungagap. The context of which I've provided in both this post and the huge one I made above, which two debunked scans are not sufficient to refute.

2. Yes, the Eighth Multiverse is 1-A and we rate it as such. None of which has any bearing on my argument, unless you were attempting to argue that the Far Shore statements do not fit my point because space is a 1-A concept in Marvel Comics, or something else that is equally irrelevant to the current debate as that.

> And the "farthest point in all space" was just used interchangeably with "The farthest point in all the multiverse"

So what? How does this in any way go against the basic fact that the Far Shore, despite its nature, is still metaphorically referred to in terms that would suggest it to be still physical from a first glance, which was my entire point? The Far Shore is not literally the "farthest point in the multiverse" because it is an aspatial void. Time and space do not exist as concepts in there. There is no notion of "distance" for the idea of it being "the farthest point in the multiverse". It is a metaphor.

> no, old comics about it being beyond the cosmic architecture mean absolutely nothing in regards to far more recent comics which show it's location directly.

So the comic run that defines Rune King Thor, the very character that we're debating in this thread, the one that defines his powers to begin with, is somehow irrelevant to the debate because of a bunch of out-of-context debunked scans from recent stories? Literally what, Hykuu?

> Also, why does a Void before all the realms mean the Void itself is outside of them aswell?

Because it is stated word-for-word that Ginnungagap is the "great, unending nothingness" and the primordial chaos that spawned all the Nine Realms and the World Tree that transcends and supports their existence. It is nonsensical to even begin to suggest that the very primeval void that spawned all the Realms is somehow not outside them. Even the very scans that you applied out of their context in the recent Mighty Thor run directly go out of their way to show that it is outside the Nine Realms.

> It's literally stated the flames of muspelheim and the ice of niflheim met at the center of Gingunnap to create everything, this is the most consistent creation myth throughout all the scans.

None of which matters nor proves anything in relation to the idea that the void is physically between Muspelheim and Niflheim, as I went in-depth about above. Those exact same realms you're describing were created from Ginnungagap after the event that started all things, and are part of the World Tree spawned from it. To the Norse, the primordial conceptual fire, representing life, and the ice, representing death, met to create everything in existence, with Niflheim and Muspelheim being symbolical representations of those concepts and thus being potential points through which you can access the void. But the void itself is in no way located between those realms. The very same stories you used as an argument demonstrate this.

> Jesus, kep you realize the argument for them being relative to it's level of existence is them being "natural residents" in it, right? Unless you have something new to put on the table.

I do, in fact, have something to put on the table. A massive analysis of all the arguments in this thread where I detail how exactly the TWSAIS are relative to Ginnungagap other than being natural residents of the void. To which you told me in private that there was a 90% chance you wouldn't respond to it because it was "bigger than all posts in the thread" and ultimately proved nothing because it was purposeful verbose on my part.

The more ya know...

To conclude this, the way I see it there is still absolutely nothing in the opposition's new arguments that can't be easily refuted upon a closer look into the stories, or that actually counters any of my major points & add anything new to the conversation.
 
Hykuu has stated on Discord that he still disagrees, but that he'd probably forget his initial anger over 1-A Thor within a week or so. So I don't think we will be seeing much more of him in this thread anymore, only Matt. Take from that what you will.
 
I literally still don't even know why RKT or TWSAIS would scale to 1-A if we grant 1-A Gungngngngnggunap or whatever, since 99% of the thread was arguing if the realms themselves are 1-A in the first place, I don't think we focused that much on how that actually affects them, if anyone could repeat the justification for them being 1-A DUE to scaling to Gungngapagprööööö, and not scaling for the realm itself, that would help the thread alot, thanks.

Btw, not asking for a debate here, but I think this is probably the best thing we can do rn
 
I already explained why that would be. The TWSAIS exist relative to the 1-A void, and are thus 1-A themselves.
 
Yes kep but you need to explain the reasoning for them existing relative to it again, and this isn't for me since as I said Idrc anymore but this is just generally the most important part of the thread tbf
 
From my original post:

Thor slowly starts to realize the futility that is Ragnarok. It is a never-ending cycle, cloaked in the shadows far beyond his comprehension. And that's when the Odinpower reveals to him what must happen for him to gain true enlightenment: he must experience death, cast his life aside, cease to be, and be remade, go a step beyond his father. And Thor does. And that's when we get the infamous quote:

From the nine days he hung at the Yggdrasil, Thor gained the ability to see through absolutely all things. He now sees beyond time itself, beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture, right into the primordial nothingness of the yawning void.

And he knows what he must do to end the Great Cycle now. He knows everything that will happen. But he is not quite done; for his ascension in power only comes after being reborn. And he is. With the help of Odin, Thor bests death, and is taken to a place far beyond space and time…

And now, he has been fully reborn and ascended. Both in power and in perception. This is the character we all know as "Rune King Thor".

Thor finds himself before Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow, in the cosmic void:

Thor, who had gained the ability to see right into the cosmic nothingness of the great void, is no longer fooled by them. He now sees past the shadows they had cloaked over creation. He sees past time, and past all the quantum structure of the multiverse, right into the great void - right into Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow. Which shows that it's not just the realm of Ginnungagap that transcends all space and time, but also its inhabitants, too.

Which is, of course, backed up by the already well-known Loki: Agent of Asgard scans, which I won't bother quoting.

But what Thor had gained in perception, he also gained just as much in power and stature. He had ascended to a level far beyond anything the Norse Gods could think of. He had become something beyond even what the TWSAIS could have foreseen.

He then proceeds to physically leave the void, transporting himself to Asgard. Showing that it was far from just his perception or even just a dream - he had really ascended to that level, to become on par with, if not greater than, the Shadows themselves.

 
Let's wait to see what Matthew thinks. He planned a long response when he found the time.
 
The problem is that all the arguments, whether for or against, have already run out. This should be resolved soon, the longer it stretches, the less healthy the discussion becomes.
 
That is a good pont, although I think that it started out with accusations thrown my way, and later heckling of Matthew, and has currently apparently calmed down from that.
 
Yes but there isn't a good way to end this due to both side's persistency, too many people disagree and too many people agree for the changes to be either applied or disregarded, if you have a way out of this, feel free to let us know

@Ant where did ClassicNESfan go btw? and POTM
 
I haven't seen ClassicNESfan in a while. He may take a break from the wiki. PrinceOfTheMorning seems to be overworked IRL and have limited available time for this type of lengthy argumentation and occasional toxicity.
 
Antvasima said:
I haven't seen ClassicNESfan in a while. He may take a break from the wiki. PrinceOfTheMorning seems to be overworked IRL and have limited available time for this type of lengthy argumentation and occasional toxicity.
Click to expand...
Fair
 
FuuHouHou said:
I hope it stays that way, accusations only make things more difficult. We need to help each other if we want to end this.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
That's not matt, that's someone on discord ik who stumbled across the thread and decided to try and ask Ewing aswell, pretty bold to assume it is matt though, didn't we say we would stop with the accusations?

And yes," I get "if" it is you," but there is seriously a dozen other people this could've been, so the original statement still stands.

Let's move on from this and wait for something actually worthwhile, thanks.
 
That wasn't an accusation, Hykuu. I didn't even treat it as something negative. I just said that if it were him, the Twitter question wouldn't really matter. I thought it might have been him because I noticed some Brazilian trending feed in the person's Twitter and all Brazilian people I knew and asked about it denied being the person in question, and the only other Brazilian interested in this discussion that I knew of was Matt, who happens to be a Lucifer fan.

Since it isn't Matt then according to you, we can drop this.
 
The term negative could mean alot of things here, either morally wrong, or logically wrong, so it still follows with the 2nd.

And Kep, I'll just be straight here, I don't think anyone cares about that lol. It's not Matt, and you could've waited for him to drop his comment so you can unleash that killer statement of him disagreeing with twitter WoG.

Again, since it wasn't who you think it is, it's best we just wait until Matt comments, please don't feel obligated to respond to this which would result in another useless conversation, thank you.
 
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