Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I would really, really, really love it if we went back to the point: rational debate, instead of random fist-tossing.

 

[Hykuu]

"with the possible exception of Hykuu (someone who is not open-minded about anything that contradicts his views)"

Apparently me not seeing anything convincing in the other side while analyzing it objectively means I'm not open minded, and I don't even hold a stance on this RKT shit, but it's still apparently my fault for disagreeing, ƒÖä

Idk why petty jabs are replacing a actual productive debate (not the one currently taking place, but one which could). So yeah, as paradox said, its best to drop this shit and get back to debating a topic which will never conclude

 

[GrathOfLux]

I know I don't have any business getting involved with this thread (especially since I'm genuinely neutral on this; I have no idea which side is right from the arguments I've seen).

But I do want to confirm what Paradox has said on one point; I've interacted with Paradox on many occasions, and I can say with full confidence that there's nothing suspicious about him. I very highly doubt there's anything wrong going on here.

And this is something I'm directing towards literally almost everyone who has been involved with the debate thus far; Paradox, Matt, Kep, Ant, literally almost anyone who has actually been genuinely involved thus far. It's really time to chill out. I know it's easy to just say that, but I mean it. Everyone is completely overreacting to this situation, and there's no chance of ever resolving this thread one way or the other until everyone is reasonable enough to consider switching their point of view. I know from experience that a heated debate where neither side wants to back down will not end. And all they'll accomplish is stressing out everyone involved. I genuinely considered quitting this wiki once due to such a thread. So focus on keeping things civil, and only continue if you really think you can keep it civil. Otherwise, it's best to back away from this thread.

 

[The_Impress]

Wait a minute... You mean Discord can be used for more than shitposting and bullying Aeyu?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Kep

Replying to your last comment in our tiny debate (which is like half the thread ago now):

That isn't so, though. The pure black appeared as background for Loki conjuring the appearances of the gods, and each further time it appeared was still when he was in the act of storytelling to TWSAIS. To say that the background shifts to fit their theme is, imo, entering into headcanon territory when the only one there demonstrably turning the scene black is Loki.

"Arguing that it's not the same realm would be so weird as to require direct evidence, and an inconsistent background color for the void really doesn't qualify as such evidence at all."

I agree. And, as I've said many times so far, Loki's comment about TWSAIS leaving back where they came from is a fairly big gaping wound in the idea that the Outside and Ginnungagap are literally the same. The color shifting is merely supporting evidence.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only other staff member online ATM that I was able to get in contact with was WeeklyBattles, whom he said he was not touching this thread. Which I understand fully. That being said, DarkGrath is also absolutely right about the situation here. And Paradox isn't a bad guy; I've seen him on Vs Central and he's typically chill and not malicious at all.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies then.

 

[Kepekley23]

Loki stated that he had changed the set to 3000 years ago at the time of the Nordic Bronze Age, not the void. There is no particular reason for the void to turn black other than the artist saying so. Especially when it keeps changing colors mid speech.

Several storylines by Al Ewing, the same writer as Agent of Asgard, showcase a dark color scheme for the Outside - with Galactus even describing as "the great, dark nothing" in the Ultimates, released a mere year after this story.

Loki's statement can just as easily mean they fled to another part of the Outside, as I have told you. They aren't going anywhere that isn't 1-A. The concepts of space and time have ceased to exist.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

By the way, my post here with the rebuttals has yet to receive any responses.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

• "Loki..."

Loki's words when he first did the change made it clear that, because no time is left, they weren't going back in time, he just made their surrounding, as in, the Outside, look like what he wanted to show them. The pitch black background appeared as he raised his arms to show each god's archetype.

• "Ultimates..."

The Ultimates depicted the Outside as a blank white space, just like this story.

• "Loki's statement can just as easily mean they fled to another part of the Outside"

Only if you ignore the fact that their dimension is depicted differently within that story.

• "They aren't going anywhere that isn't 1-A. The concepts of space and time have ceased to exist."

This is dependent on your interpretation that they just fled to a different part of the Outside. Otherwise, as I see it, the only evidence for their dimension being 1-A is the statement about being beyond cosmic architecture. As I said before, I don't think that's nearly enough.

You may not know this, but I too have achieved sight beyond the bounds of cosmic architecture, so I'll tell you the future. We're going to keep having variations of these same two posts because, at the end of the day, your post and mine both depend on personal interpretation, and neither of us are likely to change our mind since there's so little material to go on regarding this conversation. I'll just say that, pending any magical developments in Matt's and Paradox's debate, which I don't see happening, I'm not convinced of the upgrade.

 

[The_Impress]

Gotta say, I disagree with the Low 1-A Yggdrasil, becuase given the scans, the only thing it proves is why we shouldn't be trying to tier Yggdrasil, since it legitimately goes from Tier 3 to Tier 1 in every single appearance, with each showcase contradicting the other.

This is akin to scaling characters to 4-B off the Wrecker. It is a horrendous idea for us to even consider Yggdrasil reliable inthe slightest.

I'm sorry for not contributing on these threads alot, as people on Discord may know, I had an increasingly hectic last week, and I am now considerably exhausted, emotionally and physically, so hopefully this'll be the only input I may have to give for the time being.

 

[Kepekley23]

What is your view on 1-A or Low 1-A TWSAIS? Neutral? Don't care? Disagree? Agree? The debate has mostly or entirely shifted from Yggdrasil's tier at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zark

No problem. These are exhausting threads to deal with when you are already very busy.

 

[The_Impress]

then it shouldn't be called Yggdrasil upgrades anymore then, mate

I couldn't care less, to be quite frank. I don't have the state of mind to read through 3 threads of arguments and scan hunting to formulate an argument to be twisted and mangled by others

 

[Kepekley23]

> Loki's words when he first did the change made it clear that, because no time is left, they weren't going back in time, he just made their surrounding, as in, the Outside, look like what he wanted to show them. The pitch black background appeared as he raised his arms to show each god's archetype.

The black background was not necessary for his story. This is shown moments later, when it shifts from white while he is telling his dramatic-set story again, and then shifts to black when he is facing the TWSAIS.

> The Ultimates depicted the Outside as a blank white space, just like this story.

No the color of the Outside is arbitrary

The Outside is a void beyond all dimensionality. It transcends the concept of color, to begin with. As I have already said, using the background color of a conceptual void as an argument for anything when the same storyline shows the TWSAIS in a black Outside is flawed.

> This is dependent on your interpretation that they just fled to a different part of the Outside. Otherwise, as I see it, the only evidence for their dimension being 1-A is the statement about being beyond cosmic architecture. As I said before, I don't think that's nearly enough.

Ginnungagap is the same thing as the Outside. It is the void before, and after existence. It's just the way the Norse view it. The Chaos War explicitly shows that all voids before existence are the same, and that each pantheon simply has a different name for it. Amatsu-Mikaboshi is stated by the Olympians to be the Chaos before all existence, despite being the Japanese aspect of it. It's no different with Ginnungagap, which, as we've argued multiple times, is simply the Norse view of the Outside.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, once again:

• I was on a desolate plain beneath a forgotten sky of stars. A void. Outside all realms, outside all realities

It is explicitly shown in this storyline that, when the TWSAIS summon Odin to the Outside in his dreams, the void is black. So the idea of using its color to prove anything is indeed super flawed.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

• We are outside. In the great, dark nothing.

From the story Al Ewing wrote literally four months after this one, Ultimates.

I can't believe we're now discussing the color of an adimensional void as if it mattered.

 

[Antvasima]

then it shouldn't be called Yggdrasil upgrades anymore then, mate

I couldn't care less, to be quite frank. I don't have the state of mind to read through 3 threads of arguments and scan hunting to formulate an argument to be twisted and mangled by others

Understandable. You can probably stick to reading the first post summary of this thread if you change your mind. It likely needs to be updated though.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zark

You could also simply read the entireties of the two stories that I linked to earlier and make up your own mind.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People need to understand that the mere usage of the word "outside" cannot be automatically interpreted to mean "The Outside". This is the same issue as with the word oblivion being misinterpreted.

 

[Kepekley23]

All instances and scans we've posted of the Outside were talking about the literal Outside of the Omniverse, so I have no idea why you're bothering to make that point. We know that.

 

[Alonik]

• People need to understand that the mere usage of the word "outside" cannot be automatically interpreted to mean "The Outside". This is the same issue as with the word oblivion being misinterpreted.

That could be true if you were different writers, but no, it's just Al Ewing. It's just the storyline of Al Ewing, the same creator of the outside concept, so if he said someone was on the outside and in the same story of it he says that a Nordic God escaped from a multiversal catastrophe to get to the outside, then yes, it's the outside.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Once again you start from the conclusion and search for supporting evidence, Kep. You say that it is obviously the outside, but obviously most of the time the only evidence of that is bthe usage of a descriptive word and not a literal statement.

It's the same issue as with Ginnungagap being the Outside, which is STILL unproven but you take for granted die to similar descriptions.

 

[Luck100]

People need to understand that the mere usage of the word "outside" cannot be automatically interpreted to mean "The Outside". This is the same issue as with the word oblivion being misinterpreted.

The outside in agent of asgard is the same outside in the ultimates (even th autor is the same) and silver surfer (2014).

 

[Kepekley23]

The omniverse literally collapsed and Loki and Verity were left as the survivors in the background void.

How can one even start to claim it's not the Outside with this context taken into account?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Surely you can present factual evidence of that just as you can present factual evidence of other claims. Such as you extrapolating from the Chaos War to say that every void is oblivion and or the outside.

 

[Kepekley23]

The factual evidence that has been presented to you about one million times by now , which you said dozens of times that "you never denied"., but are now denying, for some reason.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Surely you can present factual evidence of that just as you can present factual evidence of other claims. Such as you extrapolating from the Chaos War to say that every void is oblivion and or the outside.

Surely you can debunk the evidence already presented to you instead of playing coy: The Outside exists beyond the Omniverse, and Loki ended up in a void outside the Omniverse after the whole thing collapsed. Pray tell: Do you have any better ideas as to what it could possibly be? If you have them, we're all ready to hear them.

 

[Kepekley23]

Seeing just how all over the place the opposition is right now in terms of structural consistency just makes me believe this upgrade more and more. Not a single word and argument is being kept consistent. Everything changes in a heartbeat to suit the current post. That isn't a good sign. It doesn't hurt to keep an open mind, y'know.

Loki stated that he sensed the Silver Surfer was somewhere in the Outside with them, by the way. If we're now pretending that Loki and Verity never went to the Outside, we will also be inadvertently conceding to the idea that Silver Surfer and Glorian never went to the Outside, either. I am sure you realize what that means for your argument.

 

[Luck100]

There are the statement of the shaper of World's about the events of silver surfer's and how he fell into obvilion (by the same writer of loki agent of asgard).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nowhere does he say the Silver Surfer is in the outside, just that the Silver Surfer survived as well.

I have no idea what this has to do in relatio.

and this so called evidence doesn't say anythign either. It just says "In the nothing".

The more time passes the less I'm convinced of this upgrade due to the severe systemic issues in the supporting arguments.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, once again:

• I was on a desolate plain beneath a forgotten sky of stars. A void. Outside all realms, outside all realities

It is explicitly shown in this storyline that, when the TWSAIS summon Odin to the Outside in his dreams, the void is black. So the idea of using its color to prove anything is indeed super flawed.

You're literally misquoting your scan here. It says "Forgotten sky void of stars". All it means is that there were no stars there.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Nowhere does he say the Silver Surfer is in the outside, just that the Silver Surfer survived as well.

So the Surfer wasn't in the Outside with Glorian after the multiverse collapsed, is what you're saying?

> and this so called evidence doesn't say anythign either. It just says "In the nothing".

Matthew, the entire omniverse collapsed in the Incursions. They're in the nothingness after the end of the omniverse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Surely you can debunk the evidence already presented to you instead of playing coy: The Outside exists beyond the Omniverse, and Loki ended up in a void outside the Omniverse after the whole thing collapsed. Pray tell: Do you have any better ideas as to what it could possibly be? If you have them, we're all ready to hear them.

How about an unspecified dimension connected to Asgard, as was the definition of their realm. Which shows that the intent of the original storyline was never to definitely say they were in Ginnungagap.

I mean, for goodness sake, the Shadow Gods are literally sitting inside a mountain amidst a cloudy plain. This does not support your argument. And you can literally enter and leave their plane from a doorway portal.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"So the Surfer wasn't in the Outside with Glorian after the multiverse collapsed, is what you're saying?"

The Surfer storyline didn't use the term "The Outside" if that's what you're wondering. They call it The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be

"Matthew, the entire omniverse collapsed in the Incursions. They're in the nothingness after the end of the omniverse."

Yes, but that doesn't affect my point. My point is that the Shadow Gods reside in a realm outside the Marvel Multiverse, but said realm isn't the entirety of the Outside as you so insist. You need actual solid evidence of that.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nice attempt at a gotcha moment. All the scan says is that Silver Surfer is outside the multiverse as well. Which he was.

But this doesn't change my argument in the slightest. The problem at hand is that at no point is the realm the Shadow Gods are in is ever established to be the literal, full Outside, which as a concept was only explained in depth later in The Ultimates.

 

[Kepekley23]

> But this doesn't change my argument in the slightest. The problem at hand is that at no point is the realm the Shadow Gods are in is ever established to be the literal, full Outside, which as a concept was only explained in depth later in The Ultimates.

What red herring is this? It is the literal full Outside just by virtue of the fact that they are in the background void after the collapse of the omniverse. You're contradicting yourself with every post. First you say there's no evidence they're on the Outside, contradicting literally every single thing you said beforehand, and now you're saying they are on the Outside but it's not the "full Outside"? It's a dimensionless 1-A background void. There is no such thing as "a small slice" of it.

> Yes, but that doesn't affect my point. My point is that the Shadow Gods reside in a realm outside the Marvel Multiverse, but said realm isn't the entirety of the Outside as you so insist. You need actual solid evidence of that.

The Shadow Gods reside in the Outside. We've been over this. "The entirety of the Outside" is a redundant red-herring. It is an adimensional void. Distance and sizes as concepts are irrelevant and nonexistent.

 

[PhantomMistress]

Gotta love how still not a single ounce of this all-encompassing response dissecting every scan in the story has been refuted. Now people just took advantage of the nonsense to distance themselves from what matters.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, Marvel Comics doesn't exist in a damn vacuum with every comicbook released. Al Ewing wrote the first volume of the Ultimates before January 2016. Meanwhile the last issue of Agent of Asgard was being written in the last half of 2015, and published in August 2015. Chances are that the writing times overlapped with each other, but even if they hadn't: it doesn't matter. The concept is still clearly defined in the story. The nothing, the background void that underlies reality after the concepts of space and time themselves are destroyed.