Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

[AshenCrow777]

It doesn't seem like a Low 1-A or 1-A Thor will ever be agreed to be accepted, so a compromise solution is the best that you can aim for.

It will never be agreed on not because anyone doesn't agree with the rating... it's more about the fact that both sides keeps jumping at each other's throats, throwing pointless Jabs etc.

So a compromise is the only way to upgrade anything in this CRT without anyone wasting everyone's time with the needless hostility from one side and the pointless circle jerking from an other.

They brought this on themselves honestly. No one wants to upgrade RTK Thor above low 2-C and and the supporting side wants that one 1-A/low 1A but they can't seem to have it cuz opposing side rather die on that hill if it means stopping 1-A Thor.

So yeah 2-A and Low 1-C is the way to go.

 

[Antvasima]

@Malomtek

Permanently stop with the repeated personal attacks. It is not acceptable.

@Ashen

Again, I like Thor better than Hercules (Marvel Comics), and I had not problems with giving the latter a Low 1-A rating, since his feat was explicit. It is all vagueness and interpretation that I am uneasy with here.

Also, skip the crude language please.

 

[Overlord775]

It's not a personal attack Ant, Matt is very much acting pretentiously

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is at least a very hostile tone, and we need to heavily diminish that to get anywhere.

 

[Overlord775]

then don't commit a double standard and react the same way when Matt does it

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew has not gone nearly as far as the sum total of all the people who have attacked him here as far as I am aware.

Also, I have the impression that some members of this wiki have a tendency to overreact whenever he is involved.

Anyway, we only have 39 posts left in this thread to decide on a workable compromise solution, so we should focus on that instead.

 

[Malomtek]

Ant, have you actually looked at Matt's posts? They drip with condescending hostility. This sounds like more internet defense force role-playing.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Matthew is being rude and impatient at times, and would much prefer if he skips it, but he has also been provoked considerably more with direct attacks than the reverse.

Let's focus on applying a compromise solution instead though. We are running out of posts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

About compromises, I am absolutely, vehemently against anything resembling 1-A.

I could perhaps see 2-A or Low 1-C if I am being very generous and willing to overlook very obvious and egregious examples.

 

[Antvasima]

That is the kind of compromise that we are talking about.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2-A to Low 1-C is good. Also, I don't know what TWSAIS stood for again, but I agreed with Matt and Sera that it seemed iffy to abuse scaling like that.

And also, I'd appreciate not talking about the past or pointing the entire blame on Matt. Even Matt has apologized for his behavior and is really no where near as bad as people paint him as. Also, during instances in which he "Acted malicious" there's always at least one person who was even more malicious to him or one of his friends/people he supports than he ever was to anyone else. But even instances where he barely said anything offensive, people act like he committed some kind of serious crime just for "showing his face here" or something.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus. It is almost like gangs of people throw rocks at Matthew as soon as he shows his face, and then say that he is behaving worse than they do just because he angrily complains about it. The point being that he is being provoked a lot, and still usually only responds by getting impatient and annoyed in return.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to suggest how to formulate the compromise solution?

We also need somebody to restart the thread very soon, as we are almost out of posts. Are you willing to handle it Medeus?

 

[Alonik]

Kepekley on VSBDiscord asked to wait, he couldn't comment here the past days cuz of some things IRL.

And this compromise is only being proposed by the against side of the upgrade, so take into account that this is not a decision that most will want. No one on the support side has commented on it, so it is better to wait.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Tony_Stark69]

9 Members disagree and 12 Members agree, as stated by OP.

Majority Wins.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not really informed enough on the matter to restart the thread, but I suppose it might need to be restarted. Also, the number of voters isn't what matters, plus the most of the ones who are against it are Marvel/DC experts and staff. Kepekley and Ultima are the only staff members who agree with Tier 1.

Kepekley is welcome to comment later to defend his stance, but I still think the compromise is more reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't work like that. A majority of the staff and knowledgeable members disagree.

 

[Tony_Stark69]

• 1. The "Fates" referred to in The Infinity Revelatio are not The Norns from Thor's cosmology. We cannot assume that every time a writer makes an allegorical reference to "the fates," he is deliberately referring to The Norns, especially in a story that does not include The Norns or any other aspect of Thor's cosmology. Jim Starlin has never featured them in any of his stories nor did he include them in his multiversal heirarchy. The Living Tribunal also attributes the events of The Infinity Revelatio to "Destiny," "the stars and their creator," and "his master."

> This argument would make sense if there is/are something else called as "Fates" in Marvel. Absence of stuff relating to Thor has nothing to do here, because Thor wasn't mentioned here, but fates were. There presence in Jim's Multiversal heirarchy doesn't mean anything because even Death and TOAA were absent and both of them played important roles in his storylines, directly and/or indirectly. Attributing to events doesn't affect the argument for World Tree because as said by Eternity, the fates were just letting it to be realized, not happen or proceed.

• 2. The above analysis regarding Seth's invasion of Asgard misinterprets terminology used in that story, and it more likely means something quite different when taken in full context. Terms like "reality," "plane," "realm," "multiverse," "universe," "dimension," etc. mean different things, depending on the writer. In this story in particular, "plane" is used as a stand in for "realm," as indicated when Seth claims that the destruction of Asgard's Rainbow Bridge cut them off "from the mortal plane." In Thor's cosmology, the Rainbow Bridge connects Asgard to Midgard (Earth's realm). With this context in mind, we can see that Seth's only mention of "infinite planes" was when he boasted that nobody in "infinite planes" had ever assembled an army as large as his ow. This is just the same as saying "Nobody in infinite universes of the multiverse has ever had an army this big!" There's never any indication infinite planes are actually in danger in the story at all. The only time multiple planes are directly affected in this storyline, they specify that they are talking about the planes within that reality. So, knowing that "plane" likely means "realm" in this storyline, if we further reason that "reality" means "conventional Marvel universe," then this clears up all inconsistencies. By this interpretation, Seth was only threatening every realm within Marvel 616 (i.e. the 9 realms of Yggdrasil), and this also fits with how his battle against Odin caused shockwaves which "ripple across every plane of reality." If those "planes" were meant to be read as "realms" and "reality" was meant to be read as "Marvel 616," then this feat would be consistent with Odin's usual showings. If those "planes" were meant to be read as "every layer of Marvel's omniverse" and "reality" were meant to be read as "all of Marvel," then this would be a Low 1-A feat for both Odin and Seth, which severly contradicts their usual levels.

> Usage of Plane as Reality by a character, doesn't affect the usage of Planes by the narrator himself. Mortal Plane was just used as a substitute for 616 Reality by Seth and the 9 realms are not within 616, they are fully formed and sperate/discrete Universes as shown here . Sending ripples across planes of Reality =/= Destroying said planes. In Marvel Gods have shown the ability to travel and affect Planes of Reality, as shown here and here

• 3. Ginnungagap is a central concept from Norse mythology, which claims that reality sprang from an empty void, so the concept present in Thor's stories is not necessarily analogous to Oblivion. In fact, the creation stories that mention Ginnungagap often claim that only nine realms exist.

> Yes, in Mythology, not in fictions like Marvel. Ginnungagap could be the Asgardian way of saying "OBLIVION". Just like how they call Universes as Worlds/Realms. Also, it wasn't "ONLY", the story was about Asgardian Nine Realms not the entire Multiverse, that's why they were talking about Nine Realms.

• 4. We cannot be sure that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow naturally reside in The Outside, because while Odin's original vision of them may have happened "outside of all realities," there are actually many realms in Marvel that qualify as being "outside all realities" without literally being in the 1-A realm beyond everything. Like with The Norns, we cannot assume that every time a writer mentions something being "outside all realities" they are making an intentional reference to The Outside. Furthermore, at the time of Loki's confrontation with Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, the multiverse had just been destroyed. Anybody who had survived or escaped the death of the multiverse was in The Outside (including Loki). Loki was also in possession of the essence of the gods, which Those Who Sit Above In Shadow feed o. Thus, him encountering them in The Outside does not necessarily make The Outside their natural habitat. It just makes it the only place Loki could be at the time, and he had something they wanted. After he scares them off, he even claims they returned "back to wherever they came from," implying they do not naturally live in The Outside. In regards to the scaling specifically, while Lifebringer Galactus might have claimed to have trouble existing in The Outside in a much later story, that seems to have been something that was not yet established when Loki met Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, as fairly mundane beings were surviving just fine in The Outside during this storyline. Therefore, even if you can prove that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow naturally reside in The Outside, it does not really say much about their tiering or the tiering of Yggdrasil.

> The fact that TWAIS were fine after the destruction of the Multiverse shows that either they live outside the Multiverse (making them 1-A, by nature, not power) or have Multiversal durability. Also, the Outside/Oblivion is infinite nothingness, so that could possibly mean that they live in a part of Nothingness and after encountering Loki they went back to said part. It's also worth noticing how they could detect Loki and energies or whatever he had, in the 1-A Realm of infinite nothingness.

• Even Heimdall, who sees everything within the confines of Yggdrasil, only starts to freak out after the invaders from another realm cross over into the local nine universes. This implies that he could not see them before, which further suggests that they were not a part of Yggdrasil.

> He starts to freak out because he apparently saw the End. Anybody would freak out after seeing anything like that.

 

[Luck100]

Fortunately, it's only a matter of time before Thor has his 1-A key. There are already futher information about the nauture of the Gods that's scale to Yggdrasil (Axis mundi) and many more to come in this thread.

 

[Tony_Stark69]

BUMP

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Are you willing to restart this thread as soon as possible? We are running out of posts.

 

[Tony_Stark69]

@Medeus
Are you willing to restart this thread as soon as possible? We are running out of posts.

DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have copy/pasted the OP and restarted it here. Though, link to this thread in the new one.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I appreciate it. I will close this thread then.