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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

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Antvasima

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Continued from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3890091

Overview:
This thread is meant to evaluate exactly how much of the Marvel multiverse Yggdrasil (otherwise known as The World Tree) encompasses. Yggdrasil is a central part of Marvel's Thor series, and many of the larger feats involving the Thor cast deal with someone damaging, affecting, or otherwise posing some level of threat to Yggdrasil. While the structure is traditionally portrayed as only supporting 9-10 realms (which have been confirmed to be entire universes), some concern has recently been raised that Yggdrasil may in fact encompass much more of the Marvel multiverse. There are more or less two perspectives on this.

  • 1. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to Eternity and Marvel's other abstract beings. That is to say, perhaps there is one massive Yggdrasil that encompasses the entire Low 1-A structure of Marvel while each individual Marvel reality also hosts a smaller Yggdrasil manifestation that only supports 9-10 universes. Any scans that seem to suggest Yggdrasil only has 9-10 universes are either statements made by a character who doesn't know any better or are only referring to a Yggdrasil manifestatio rather than the true World Tree.
  • 2. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to a standard Marvel structure. That is to say, perhaps one Yggdrasil exists in each Marvel reality, supporting 9-10 universes, but no such higher dimensional Yggdrasil exists. Any scans suggesting the existence of a Low 1-A Yggdrasil are either taken out of context or are a part of a recent revamp to the Marvel multiverse and therefore, cannot be back-scaled to upgrade any previous feats of characters affecting the structure.
Were Perspective #1 to be adopted, all previous threats to Yggdrasil would need to be reevaluated to determine whether the full structure was in danger or just a manifestation. Proponents of this theory currently suggest that the only long-reaching effects would be a Low 1-A upgrade to Rune King Thor and Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, but concerns have been raised about similar feats performed by Odi, Seth, Surtur , and several other Marvel characters currently rated as 2-C.

Were Perspective #2 to be adopted, nothing would change.

Below are some relevant arguments for both perspectives. Neither list is exhaustive, but I made a good faith effort to include talking points which have not been dropped or have not reached a unanimous conclusion yet. I encourage people to read the arguments and evaluate the reasoning on both sides without bias. If you have anything to add to either side, please do so in a comprehensive and polite manner, making it as easy to understand as possible. In the interest of full disclosure, I am against the upgrade right now. Please let us know your opinion in the replies. I am the original author for several of the "Against" arguments, so if that section seems more exhaustive, it is because I am more familiar with it. Don't let that sway your decision. If any argument in this opening post is not represented properly, understand that it is a result of my own shortcomings in recalling, comprehending, and/or communicating the argument. I am unconscious of any such errors, but if any are found to exist, I kindly request that these last few sentences be viewed as an apology in advance. It is my honest desire that this thread should find itself to the most accurate and representative conclusion within the scope of this wiki's abilities.

Arguments For Low 1-A Yggdrasil

Arguments Against Low 1-A Yggdrasil

An edit from Antvasima: Here is my attempt to summarise who supports what from the earlier discussion. If I misunderstood anything, please let me know about it, and I will try to fix it:

Disagree with the suggested upgrade: Antvasima, Matthew Schroeder, ClassicNESfan, PrinceOfTheMorning, DarkDragonMedeus, SomebodyData, Sera EX, Hykuu, C2 of Omegon

Agree with the suggested upgrade: Kepekley23, Ultima Reality, The real cal howard, ParadoxIndifferent, Alonik, Driger-God, Luck100, PhantomMistress, Overlord775, ZeedKrakenZilla, Adem Warlock69, ReshRech
 
> The two scans that you linked to do not remotely draw any explicit connection between TWSAIS and Ginnungap. They just explain that Thor has achieved a heightened level of perception that allows him to see reality for what it is, including the nature of TWSAIS.

The nature of the TWSAIS, who existed in Ginnungagap. This is super blatant. It doesn't need to be explicitly stated. Just look at the context of the scans. The Agent of Asgard story just further confirms it.
 
It was two different scenes describing Thor's enhanced perceptions understanding the natures of two separate things. That is all. Anything else is speculation/conjecture as usual.
 
I reiterate my disagreement yet again. There is no valid argument that supports a valid upgrade to 1-A happening here and merely talking about "blatant context" isn't an argument. You're literally putting your opinion over factual evidence.
 
@Kepekley23

You are trying to fit together the intents of two separate storylines by different authors at least 11 years apart.
 
I've seen this scan dozens of times already, Kep. It proves nothing save that Odin met the Shadow Seat Boys outside all reality in a dream. It's not a feat for absolutely anything. You're just inferring guestwork that this should somehow correlate to AP.

In other thoughts, thank you for making a reasonable and effective thread, Ant. I think you summed up the issues we have and all of the major debunks pretty effectively.
 
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley23

You are trying to fit together the intents of two separate storylines by different authors at least 11 years apart.
Sorry, but I don't really care about that. Show evidence that those two stories contradict each other before using this argument. Otherwise it's your opinion vs. the scan.
 
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley23

You are trying to fit together the intents of two separate storylines by different authors at least 11 years apart.
This is also an issue. The upgrades often blatantly disregard our Marvel and DC rules and standards.
 
Kepekley23 said:
I don't care. Show evidence that those two stories contradict each other before using this argument. Otherwise it's your opinion vs. the scan.
Firstly there's no reason for you to get aggressive. Secondly, the 2003 Ragnarok storyline treated the event as limited to the Nine Realms of Norse Mythology. Nothing more. That in of itself is a contradiction. Likewise the scan isn't nearly as infallible as you say it is. Nothing of Odin's encounter with the Shadow Sitting guys indicate anything that supports a 1-A rating.
 
@Matthew

Thank ClassicNESfan. I just copy-pasted what he had written earlier.
 
> Firstly there's no reason for you to get aggressive.

I didn't. I treat bad arguments the way I view them. I don't attack those who make the arguments.

> Secondly, the 2003 Ragnarok storyline treated the event as limited to the Nine Realms of Norse Mythology. Nothing more

Cool, but the Thor story is from 1998.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley23

You are trying to fit together the intents of two separate storylines by different authors at least 11 years apart.
Didn't Lucifer got upgraded to 1-A with comics from vertigo to dc ?
Why 15 years of difference is so absurd ? There are consistent between comics.
 
Anyway...

> The point is that none of your so-called "proof" says what you claim that it does.

I have already told you that I don't deal with circular debates like this. Either provide scans for your point of view or simply back off and let other people argue.

> If I understood correctly it has been claimed that TWSAIS feeding on the local event of the Norse gods doing final battle when the last two universes collided was equivalent on them absorbing the story of the multiverse itself. That is not true. It was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept from them.

Because Loki prevented the multiverse from collapsing in its entirety, and thus they wanted to absorb that last story Loki kept from them with his powers. They explicitly state as much.

> Again, this was a case of the last two universes colliding triggering a local event, not the other way around.

Provide evidence. It is explicitly stated by multiple sources that "Ragnarok" was a multiversal event in the story, and I have provided the evidence for this. When the TWSAIS firstvisit Odin in his dreams to announce the upcoming end of reality, he interprets it as something multiversal in scale, and he is shown to be correct, and it is still encapsulated under the "Ragnarok" label.

> I already work at least 12 hours a day trying to make sure that this wiki keeps somewhat organised and does not collapse. There are limits to how much you can demand from me.

That's not my fault. If you can't provide scans, then drop the argument and let other people argue for you. I'm not interested in hearing you repeatedly claim that this was a local event just because that's the impression you got from the storline.

> If I remember correctly, it was explicitly stated that they wanted to feed on the essences that Loki kept safe from them.

Indeed. So what?

> Not necessarily, and at best this would just be about scaling to Yggdrasil, not to the entity Oblivion itself.

1. Oblivion is irrelevant to this debate.

2. Yes, necessarily. Ginnungagap is (1) the void that existed before all creation (2) referred to as existing "beyond the veil of time; beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" (3) explicitly shown in the Loki storyline to be the same thing as the Outside, a 1-A void. I showed this to several people who are knowledgeable on the new Tiering System, and they agreed it sounded pretty damn 1-A.

> The point is that there doesn't seem to be any reliable proof that Ginnugagap refers to the void preceding all space and time of the entire multiverse.

Ant, the proof is as explicit as it can possibly get. Ginnungagap was the infinite nothingness that remained after the entire omniverse collapsed at the Incursions.

> They have never been referred to as existing beyond all dimensionality

"Beyond the veil of time, beyond all quantum structure and beyond cosmic architecture, into the primordial nothingness of Ginnungagap" is pretty close to such a statement for them.

> and much of your argument hinges on that it requires a Low 1-A or higher nature to survive outside of the multiverse. This has been proven blatantly false.

I have never used that argument.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
Yo Matt, you gonna respond to my post or are you gonna keep acting as if ClassicNESFan's copy-pasted write-up from 1 month ago is still relevant when he has dropped from the discussion to focus on what matters (his personal life)?
1. I thought we stopped being aggressive a while ago?

2. I'll do it when I deem relevant when I want.

3. I still think ClassicNESFan's post hasn't been "debunked" whatsoevr. You disagreeing doesn't oblige me to agreeing with your fallacious arguments.
 
Luck100 said:
.
Didn't Lucifer got upgraded to 1-A with comics from vertigo to dc ?
Why 15 years of difference is so absurd ? There are consistent between comics.
Also a bunch of other reasons.

And yes, 15 years of difference is a big thing in a verse as inconsistent as Marvel in an issue as inconsistent as this one.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Luck100 said:
.
Didn't Lucifer got upgraded to 1-A with comics from vertigo to dc ?
Why 15 years of difference is so absurd ? There are consistent between comics.
Also a bunch of other reasons.
And yes, 15 years of difference is a big thing in a verse as inconsistent as Marvel in an issue as inconsistent as this one.


> Inconsistence

Every verse have inconsistences but only Marvel is getting nerfed by it ?

And nerfed without reason it seems.
 
I have already told you that I don't deal with circular debates like this. Either provide scans for your point of view or simply back off and let other people argue.

You are the ones wishing to push through an enormous change, not me. I am just evaluating the scans that others have shown me, and they have not provided anything resembling conclusive evidence so far.

Because Loki prevented the multiverse from collapsing in its entirety, and thus they wanted to absorb that last story Loki kept from them with his powers. They explicitly state as much.

Show me the scan with this statement please.

Provide evidence. It is explicitly stated by multiple sources that "Ragnarok" was a multiversal event in the story, and I have provided the evidence for this. When the TWSAIS first visit Odin in his dreams to announce the upcoming end of reality, he interprets it as something multiversal in scale, and he is shown to be correct, and it is still encapsulated under the "Ragnarok" label.

The Beyonders started destroying the multiverse long before TWSAIS showed up and the Norse gods started their final battle. What multiple sources state anything about the Norse gods fighting against their traditional enemies causing a multiversal cataclysm?

That's not my fault. If you can't provide scans, then drop the argument and let other people argue for you. I'm not interested in hearing you repeatedly claim that this was a local event just because that's the impression you got from the storline.

It is your fault that you relentlessly waste my time and energy after your suggestion has been repeatedly rejected by plenty of staff members. In any case, all that was shown in the story was the Norse gods fighting against their enemies afrer the Beyonders triggered the end of time, Loki saving their essences, and TWSAIS wishing to feed on them. That is all.

Indeed. So what?

That is not remotely the same scale as wishing to feed on the story of the entire multiverse, as was claimed previously.

1. Oblivion is irrelevant to this debate.

People on your side of the argument have tried to scale Ginungagap and TWSAIS to him.

2. Yes, necessarily. Ginnungagap is (1) the void that existed before all creation (2) referred to as existing "beyond the veil of time; beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" (3) explicitly shown in the Loki storyline to be the same thing as the Outside, a 1-A void. I showed this to several people who are knowledgeable on the new Tiering System, and they agreed it sounded pretty damn 1-A.

I am very tired, but would like to see evaluations from ClassicNESfan, PrinceOfTheMorning, Matthew, and Hykuu regarding this point.

Ant, the proof is as explicit as it can possibly get. Ginnungagap was the infinite nothingness that remained after the entire omniverse collapsed at the Incursions.

A scan would be appreciated here as well.

"Beyond the veil of time, beyond all quantum structure and beyond cosmic architecture, into the primordial nothingness of Ginnungagap" is pretty close to such a statement for them.

That was a reference about Thor's scale of cosmic awareness, not TWSAIS.

I have never used that argument.

"Your" here means your side of the argument. Others certainly have argued for this.
 
"I have already told you that I don't deal with circular debates like this. Either provide scans for your point of view or simply back off and let other people argue."

When I answer your faulty interpretations of scans I will point out that you're reading them wrong, yes. Whether you like it or not. Wanting me to just "back off" simply for disagreeing and pointing out that you're wrong is emotional fragility. Deal with it.

"Because Loki prevented the multiverse from collapsing in its entirety, and thus they wanted to absorb that last story Loki kept from them with his powers. They explicitly state as much."

No, they didn't explicitly say anything, actually. Other than the Shadow Seat Gods wanting to eat the stories of the Norse Gods' final battle and final death.

"Provide evidence. It is explicitly stated by multiple sources that "Ragnarok" was a multiversal event in the story"

No it wasn't. The events of Secret Wars were not Ragnarok, no matter how many times you insist. You can't turn an objective lie into reality as much as you'd like. Thank you.

"and I have provided the evidence for this."

You haven't.

"When the TWSAIS firstvisit Odin in his dreams to announce the upcoming end of reality, he interprets it as something multiversal in scale, and he is shown to be correct, and it is still encapsulated under the "Ragnarok" label."

Of course Odin refers to the events of Secret Wars as "Ragnarok", its the Norse Word for the end of the world. It doesn't mean that Secret Wars is the Ragnarok Prophecy.

If a character such as Ghost Rider referred to Secret Wars as "Armaggedon", would you interpret Secret Wars to be the literal Biblical Apocalypse? Of course not. The beautiful thing about language and words is that they can mean many things. And it's up to the reader to show basic reading comprehension and interpretative abilities.

"That's not my fault. If you can't provide scans, then drop the argument and let other people argue for you. I'm not interested in hearing you repeatedly claim that this was a local event just because that's the impression you got from the storline."

Ragnarok as presented in the Rune King Thor was objectively a local event. Such a thing is an unarguable fact as much as you wish to ignore the story proper to scaling from events 15 years down into the future.

"Oblivion is irrelevant to this debate."

Then stop bringing him up. You're the one who started this mess by equating shit with Oblivion with no evidence.

"Yes, necessarily. Ginnungagap is (1) the void that existed before all creation"

Prove it. You still haven't.

"(2) referred to as existing "beyond the veil of time; beyond all quantum structure and cosmic architecture" "

Big deal. That could be a description to give insight to a Tier 2 thing.

"explicitly shown in the Loki storyline to be the same thing as the Outside, a 1-A void."

No. It. Wasn't. How many times will we go through this.

"I showed this to several people who are knowledgeable on the new Tiering System, and they agreed it sounded pretty damn 1-A."

Appeal to Authority that is utterly meaningless. Stop doing this. And considering the veracity of the scans you keep using I'm sure as hell not going to trust you manipulating evidence to convince others to your cause.

"Ant, the proof is as explicit as it can possibly get. Ginnungagap was the infinite nothingness that remained after the entire omniverse collapsed at the Incursions."

Clearly it wasn't. Because so far you haven't been able to prove any of that.


" "Beyond the veil of time, beyond all quantum structure and beyond cosmic architecture, into the primordial nothingness of Ginnungagap" is pretty close to such a statement for them."

No it wasn't. There's nothing about spatial dimensions there. Stop putting Reed Richards to shame with your stretching.

"I have never used that argument."

You have many times over. One of the major arguments in the past threads, in fact, was that "People like Lifebringer Galactus can barely survive in the Outside and the Shadow Boys are native to it!!!111"

Don't lie. It's bad.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
> Inconsistent
> Both characters receiving this upgrade have only made two major appearances in two stories, the ones we're discussing right now
Considering that Rune King Thor is from a storyline that portrays Ragnarok as limited to the Nine Realms and that TWSAIS are 100% featless save for a handful of statements.

Your attempts to present false evidence are weak.
 
Kepekley23 said:
He was responding to Ant, the person who tried to counter him in the other thread, not you, Matt. Not sure why you're acting as if that post was addressed to you lol.
Because I wanted to respond to. That's how bad I found his arguments to be.

And speaking of bad arguments...

Kepekley23 said:
As if the chronological distance between the two stories matters in this case. They don't contradict each other in the slightest.
Yes. They actually matter a lot, son. Because there's objective contradictions with how both storylines portray Yggdrasil and the scale of Ragnarok. In fact, one of them isn't even about Ragnarok. It's a tie-in to Secret Wars. And the other story, the one about Ragnarok proper? It never once suggests that the Shadow Boys eat stories. Only that they drive power from the cycle of ragnarok. Which is as localized an event as you can get in the cosmic scale.
 
The mental gymnastics that need to be done to ignore the fact that Ginnungagap was being treated as the domain of the TWSAIS in the original story is immense.

Literally just see the context of the story. Upon gaining the ability to see into the void of Ginnungagap, he is described as realizing what the TWSAIS are - the truth behind the Grand Cycle. And then, when he meets the TWSAIS in a blank void, he confirms this. He's gained "sight beyond sight", and he now sees directly beyond the "shadows" of the TWSAIS.

The Agent of Asgard directly goes out of its way to confirm this, speaking of the realm of the TWSAIS as outside the omniverse.
 
Luck100 said:
Every verse have inconsistences but only Marvel is getting nerfed by it?

And nerfed without reason it seems.
I don't know any other verse that is anywhere near as inconsistent as Marvel. It has several hundreds of writers with tens of thousands of stories over 8 decades of continuity (or 6 decades if you only count the new era). All of whom have wildly different interpretations of both powerscaling and cosmology.
 
I literally never suggested that the Shadow Boys are not from Ginnungagap. What the hell are you talking about, my dude. I know it's easier to defeat straw opponents but stop it.

Secondly. Ginnungagap existing outside of the multiverse (Stop using the word "Omniverse" like it means something different. It's annoying) does not mean it's a OHMUHGAWD OUTERVERSAL REALM. You need actual factual hard evidence for that. Which the Pro-Upgrade Side doesn't possess. Only claims that remain unproven.

Thirdly. Again with the obsession with the handful of panels of Thor's Cosmic Awareness. Why do you act like it means so much more? Seriously.
 
@Antvasima

There are some verses like Dragon Ball or even DC/vertigo that include in marvel/dc power scalling rules.

The last one have more age than the Marvel universe and it's correctly managed in the wikia (different of Marvel that gets nerfed for nothing).

Even if with dozens of writers Marvel keep remmbering events of 80/60 years past.

In one of these cases the TWSAIS aparead in the recent event secret wars.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
Not sure which one of the two I should respond to. Kinda just the same post, though Ant's is calmer and more down to the earth. Anyway, I'm writing up a response.
Don't bother. I am constantly jumping back and forth between hundreds of different tasks. Given this, it is very hard for me to keep track of chopped up conversations like the one we just had.

Anyway, there is far too strong staff opposition to this for it ever to be accepted. There is no point to you continuing to waste all of our time in this manner. The thread should be closed so I can focus on more important wiki tasks.
 
>Marvel Nerfed.

Luck. Maybe you're young on the wiki but we are not nerfing Marvel right now. We just had some major upgrades to the verse as a whole go through. And things used to be a lot, LOOOOOT more strict with how we handled powerscaling (Which is to say, we literally didn't do it).

DC meanwhile is getting a lot of revisions all the time as well. As we have to accomodate for different continuities and more.

And I can confidently say without a shadow of a doubt that most Marvel writers do not remember even 50% of past events in their continuity.
 
No, I doubt that most Marvel writers have more than a cursory knowledge of the continuity as a whole. Even the longtime editors such as Tom Brevoort have a very hard time keeping track. He did not know what Multi-Eternity was before I told him (This was before Al Ewing started using the character, which was originally created by Jeph Loeb).
 
Antvasima said:
Don't bother. I am constantly jumping back and forth between hundreds of different tasks. Given this, it is very hard for me to keep track of chopped up conversations like the one we just had.

Anyway, there is far too strong staff opposition to this for it ever to be accepted. There is no point to you continuing to waste all of our time in this manner. The thread should be closed so I can focus on more important wiki tasks.
Stop with that passive-aggresive behaviour, you're supposed to be one that acts with more decency as a Bureaucrat.

and, if you don't want to continue following this thread, you don't have to, people like Matthew or SomebodyData can defend the "No" side just fine even if you have to leave for other stuff.
 
Antvasima said:
No, I doubt that most Marvel writers have more than a cursory knowledge of the continuity as a whole. Even the longtime editors such as Tom Brevoort have a very hard time keeping track. He did not know what Multi-Eternity was before I told him (This was before Al Ewing started using the character, which was originally created by Jeph Loeb).
This is honestly true. The further back you go into the publication history the more likely is for Marvel Writers to forget and contradict themselves. Marvel unfortunately lacks a Grant Morrison in them. Though Al Ewing has been making a valiant effort.

Finally, I obviously agree with Antvasima's statement that this will obviously not go through. The staff rejection if too great.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
>Marvel Nerfed.
Luck. Maybe you're young on the wiki but we are not nerfing Marvel right now. We just had some major upgrades to the verse as a whole go through. And things used to be a lot, LOOOOOT more strict with how we handled powerscaling (Which is to say, we literally didn't do it).

DC meanwhile is getting a lot of revisions all the time as well. As we have to accomodate for different continuities and more.

And I can confidently say without a shadow of a doubt that most Marvel writers do not remember even 50% of past events in their continuity.


As most of the writers do.

But Ewing remembere that events and is that what matter for the post.
 
I am not being aggressive. I am just exhausted and mentally strained, which leads to annoyance as a natural reaction. Bureaucrats are not superhuman, even ones with very high work ethic such as myself.

I am also stating facts when I say that something with this high staff rejection of the fundamental premise is not ever going to go through, no matter how much you continue to argue about it. Read the again/for summary in the first post. The discussion should be closed and the arguing about the subject permanently stopped.
 
This topic is getting to be the Ragnarok of the wiki - pointless and cyclical.

Can someone explain something to me since most of you here are more well versed in all the Marvel Norse lore than I am? I haven't been able to keep up with every post so sorry if this is repeating stuff.

1. Ginnungagap is the Outside aka the void before creation, so it's 1-A - repeatedly asserted in the last thread, and in Paradox's comment above

2. TWSAIS are from Ginnungagap - Kep's comment above.

3. TWSAIS leave the Outside, back to wherever they came from - the Loki story being used as the linchpin of this upgrade.

Either my 80 hour work week has turned me into a brainlet, in which case I apologize in advance, or there's a contradiction here. Either Ginnungagap is a void outside the multiverse but is not the Outside, or Ginnungagap is the Outside but TWSAIS are not originally from there.
 
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