Marvel Comics Herald Tiers Upgrade to 3-C

[Ocean7447]

?????

Click the spoiler block.

 

[Confluctor]

At that time Sentry's mental health was wayyy too bad to be used for any scaling - seeing as how it is Finch's art, it should be roughly around 2005 - early. So, yeah, no scaling there at all - if that's what you were trying to do.

Also, I don't think that's relevant to the thread over all.

 

[Ocean7447]

At that time Sentry's mental health was wayyy too bad to be used for any scaling - seeing as how it is Finch's art, it should be roughly around 2005 - early. So, yeah, no scaling there at all - if that's what you were trying to do.

Also, I don't think that's relevant to the thread over all.

Lindy? Is that you? Where are you getting Sentry's mental health being bad when we see no mention of this in the issue and Sentry is acting confident?

Spoiler

If you wanted to claim it was, you'd need to provide evidence of such.

But sure, we can drop this if you want and discuss it more when I make my Thing CRT.

 

[Eseseso]

Got scans?

Doom vs Sentry, from Mighty Avengers #9:

Doom vs Thor #1:

Doom loses, but tanks multiple blows without too much damage from a Thor who is in no mood to mess around.

Doom without forcefields takes a Hulk headbutt that only dents his armor: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RdRQrnQ_...z-ZjTIy8y_yhOzEL8lTjnkM4_kisNRqvn53tPAa=s1600

He even seems to somewhat hurt and even draw a bit of blood from Hulk during their fight: (Bottom left panel when he punches Hulk)

He then proceeds to knock out Hulk with an electric blast:

He also tanked a lot of blows from a robot Hulk amped by the Power Cosmic, and was clearly not badly damaged since he was taunting the robot Hulk:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/A0Dx-NVDAZZxS3pnFGHkrCMHjmVse832cpmezPdBbfn00T1OqZ3qpZBtZrCJOBC3H2wHkBxgay7f=s1600

But as you mentioned, even the Thing can badly damage Doom's armor at times, which is why IMO his durability should vary between Large Island and Galaxy Level.

 

[Ocean7447]

@Eseseso: That Hulk instance has context, mainly that Hulk had been separated by Banner and later in the same run was hurt by heroin needles and broken glass along with random space bears and a Russian cannibal. He wasn't operating anywhere near his normal level. When Hulk isn't weakened, he's restrained Doom with one hand.

 

[Confluctor]

Doom vs Sentry, from Mighty Avengers #9

Far from peak Sentry. Can't be used either.

Thor's one could potentially work as the peak of his durability, mainly because iirc, he was really badly hurt.

 

[The_Impress]

Would this feat be good to help support 5-B? Its Iron Man, Model 50, surviving the explosion of Sol's Hammer, which is calced at 5-B and nearing 5-A. I don't know how it would exactly fit into the scaling chain, but it seems good support. Maybe Carol ~ Model 51 > Model 50?

Nah, issue comes Model 50 is heavily variable depending on the forming compound added, so the standard Model 50 =/= Model 50 which did the Sol's Hammer feat, since if you'd note, he has WAYYY more forming compound there. In general if you read the issue there is some energy absorption/ redirection fuckery happening, so it's hella questionable how much did Model 50 tank to begin with.

Calc in general needs a redo, but yeah I can list it as a peak feat for the armor, scales to fuckall though

 

[The_Impress]

Doom loses, but tanks multiple blows without too much damage from a Thor who is in no mood to mess around.

I'm just going to say it, stop counting punches, start noting losses, Doom is getting blatantly overpowered there, contextually Thor wants Doom to give in, not Doom dead, it's a joke of a feat that honestly borders on anti-feat

Doom without forcefields takes a Hulk headbutt that only dents his armor: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RdRQrnQ_...z-ZjTIy8y_yhOzEL8lTjnkM4_kisNRqvn53tPAa=s1600

Hulk varies.

He then proceeds to knock out Hulk with an electric blast:

Irrelevant to current topic.

He also tanked a lot of blows from a robot Hulk amped by the Power Cosmic, and was clearly not badly damaged since he was taunting the robot Hulk:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/A0Dx-NVDAZZxS3pnFGHkrCMHjmVse832cpmezPdBbfn00T1OqZ3qpZBtZrCJOBC3H2wHkBxgay7f=s1600

Isn't that Cosmic Hulk? That's a separate character with his own strength level, no? (Which iirc is funnily enough High 6-C)

 

[The_Impress]

Anyways I'm closing this thread, application is done, now you're all pushing separate revisions, which should be done in their own threads, so as to let them have relevant attention.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait with closing this thread please. I think that trying to get the 4-A/5-A/5-B scaling straight, rather than pushing it several months into the future, is important.

 

[Eseseso]

Me when I realize my revised Doctor Doom upgrade thread is now gonna still be on hold because this thread isn't over yet:

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait with closing this thread please. I think that trying to get the 4-A/5-A/5-B scaling straight, rather than pushing it several months into the future, is important.

So about this...

We cannot just leave all of these characters at 3-C or High 6-C, without any distinctions in-between, especially not Groot.

I would appreciate if everybody here help out with this.

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[LordTracer]

Well, like I’ve said before with the 5-B scaling, I don’t think any of those characters should get a holding back tier unless there’s actual evidence to support that.

And I’m currently working on something to rescale the High 6-Cs.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the "holding back" issue is mostly placed there in order to accommodate for Marvel's inherent inconsistency, so we do not chain-scale virtually all regular Marvel characters to 3-C or much higher.

 

[LordTracer]

But if the character doesn’t actually hold back or have a variable power level in universe… it’s basically a made-up statistic.

Anyways, my sandbox with the High 6-C + 5-B rescale is almost done. I have to go to bed now, but if Confluctor drops the scans for the 5-B stuff in here, I can finish my sandbox in the morning and we can properly discuss it.

 

[Confluctor]

Linking sucks on the forum but I will do so later - including scaling stuff ofc. The main one is Gilgamesh's 5-B. 5-A for Hype 13034 is the rogue planet one.

 

[Antvasima]

But if the character doesn’t actually hold back or have a variable power level in universe… it’s basically a made-up statistic.

It isn't a made-up statistic. It takes into account that the characters in question are generally handled at roughly this power level when limited to a "regular" planetary environment. We have to do this, or end up with massive chain-scaling.

Anyways, my sandbox with the High 6-C + 5-B rescale is almost done. I have to go to bed now, but if Confluctor drops the scans for the 5-B stuff in here, I can finish my sandbox in the morning and we can properly discuss it.

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Linking sucks on the forum but I will do so later - including scaling stuff ofc. The main one is Gilgamesh's 5-B. 5-A for Hype 13034 is the rogue planet one.

Okay. Thanks for helping out to you as well.

 

[LordTracer]

It isn't a made-up statistic. It takes into account that the characters in question are generally handled at roughly this power level when limited to a "regular" planetary environment. We have to do this, or end up with massive chain-scaling.

I’m not talking about the 3-C characters here (although some of them definitely have a High 6-C stat for no real reason), I’m talking about the characters that are going to be scaled to 5-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. Thank you for helping out.

Maybe we should call it "casual power level" rather than "holding back", just so we get some flexibility to work with?

 

[LordTracer]

Here’s the list. This should be every character that scales to the new 5-Bs, as well as my idea for a High 6-C rescale (although we should preferably discuss the 5-B stuff first).

 

[ObberGobb]

Seems good to me, but one question: how come the 5-B can't be used in place of 6-B? I mean, if Model 42 scales to Abomination and is therefore 5-B, wouldn't Doctor Doom scale to that, since his armor is portrayed as being very comparable to Iron Man's? And then wouldn't the Thing scale by extension? So like Captain Marvel --> Abomination --> Model 42 Iron Man --> Doctor Doom --> The Thing?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Here’s the list. This should be every character that scales to the new 5-Bs, as well as my idea for a High 6-C rescale (although we should preferably discuss the 5-B stuff first).

Endo Sym should be 5-B as it stomped Model 42

 

[LordTracer]

wouldn't Doctor Doom scale to that, since his armor is portrayed as being very comparable to Iron Man's?

Doom and the Model 42’s stalemate is just 42 not being able to get through Doom’s shields, and Doom not being able to get through 42’s shields. That’s not AP.

Endo Sym should be 5-B as it stomped Model 42

K

 

[Eseseso]

I support Doom and Model 42 scaling to 5-B

 

[Eficiente]

What are the 5-B feats?

 

[ObberGobb]

I strongly support all the Iron Man armors currently up for 5-B. Neutral on Doom because I don't know enough about him. However, if Doom is upgraded to 5-B, Extremis should as well. But again, neutral. I'm fine either way.

Also, for Bleeding Edge, while I don't think he fits into the 5-B scaling chain, I think he should be higher than 6-B. He can hurt Ulik, 3-C. Shields from Wonder-Man's attack, 5-B. Beat up by Mokk, but at least his suit is intact, 3-C. It's fine if you don't think this warrants a 3-C for Bleeding Edge, but I think "5-B with shields" should be added to its durability.

But yeah, strong support for the already existing proposals.

 

[LordTracer]

What are the 5-B feats?

Gilgamesh lifting the Earth. It’s on his profile.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Do we have a reference point to what Tier that would be? If not, we should try calcing that then.

 

[LordTracer]

It’s just baseline 5-B.

 

[The_Impress]

Here’s the list. This should be every character that scales to the new 5-Bs, as well as my idea for a High 6-C rescale (although we should preferably discuss the 5-B stuff first).

Do we not list the Carol holdbacc on the files? She has a statement where she holds back her strength unless it is a massive wartime scenario :V

 

[Confluctor]

Nah, she just has high 6c and higher with the blast thing

 

[The_Impress]

Nah, she just has high 6c and higher with the blast thing

Funky

Oh also, again, 6-B knocks out Doom for a good long while and he wakes up busted as all hell, it’s a PIS mechanic that he even survived, should scale to fuckall, I don’t know why you’re running with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Here’s the list. This should be every character that scales to the new 5-Bs, as well as my idea for a High 6-C rescale (although we should preferably discuss the 5-B stuff first).

Well, I think that the Mandarin and especially Fin Fang Foom need to be upgraded to 6-B with the others. Foom in particular has generally been treated as being powerful enough to fight (but lose to) the Hulk.

As for Wonder Man, he has been powered up a lot since he was overpowered by Hyperion, and easily defeated the Red Hulk, for example, so I think that he likely qualifies for 5-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Funky

Oh also, again, 6-B knocks out Doom for a good long while and he wakes up busted as all hell, it’s a PIS mechanic that he even survived, should scale to fuckall, I don’t know why you’re running with it.

Okay. We should probably stick to High 6-C then.

 

[The_Impress]

And in general the feats given for Thing harming Doom’s armor are wonky:


This scan is from the 60s, 6-B feat is modern day, we KNOW Doom upgrades his armors, so this scaling goes back 60 years for a character we know grows stronger and stronger. You can guess the issues



And maybe you posted the wrong scan here, because I just don’t see Doom’s armor warp in any significant way

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, is Ulik really currently listed as 3-C along with Groot? That seems way too high for them. They are nowhere near as powerful as other characters placed at this level. I could see the Thing defeating either of them, and Wonder Man definitely could.

 

[The_Impress]

Ulik just has the issue of jobbing, contextually he is supposed to be on par with Thor.

Same issue as Terrax, not much we can do about it except add a note, I guess

 

[The_Impress]

And in general the feats given for Thing harming Doom’s armor are wonky:


This scan is from the 60s, 6-B feat is modern day, we KNOW Doom upgrades his armors, so this scaling goes back 60 years for a character we know grows stronger and stronger. You can guess the issues



And maybe you posted the wrong scan here, because I just don’t see Doom’s armor warp in any significant way

Also as a continuation to this, damaging Doom’s armor alone, isn’t enough. You have to very significantly warp and wreck Doom’s armor when he is likely in the peak of his resources, post-2020, similiar to how the 6-B feat left him.

Hell Doom’s armor can have as low as High 8-C+ components given era, you can refer to the first Luke Cage vs. Doom issue back in the day.

 

[Antvasima]

But Mangog has effortlessly stomped Ulik with a single blow, She-Hulk also stomped him, and he consistently loses to everybody, with the handbooks stating that he is only as strong as pre-power-up Wonder Man. I think that tier 5-B seems more reasonable.

Also, Groot has no feats of anywhere near this scale.