Marvel Negative Zone

[Deagonx]

Given that the Marvel Cosmology Downgrade thread has become somewhat mucked up with a cacophony of various discussions, it seemed prudent to create a new thread to focus on one of those discussions that seems simple enough for people to form their opinions about somewhat quickly.

The subject is the "Negative Zone" and it's spatial dimensionality: What kind of dimensionality it has and what implications that has on the greater Marvel cosmology.

@Ultima_Reality advocated for infinite dimensionality of the Negative Zone based on a few pieces of key evidence. The discussion revolves around the "Crossroads to Infinity" scan that mentions limitless dimensions. I will lay out the auxiliary information that is pertinent to interpreting that scan.

In these scans that lead up to the Crossroads, it is explicitly stated that the spatial dimensionality of the characters is shifting upwards and downwards based on which realm they are in. "This is where we go from four-dimensional space back to our own three dimensions." This is expanded upon further in these scans where the characters literally appear flat a character says "All of a sudden we're two-dimensional" and Reed responds "One moment we exist in three dimensions, then two -- a second from now it could be six!" This is prudent because the distortion area where this occurs is explicitly described as being "the barrier between our universe and the Negative Zone."

Further evidence describes controlling the power of the Negative Zone as "controlling dimensionality itself." In Ultima's view, this is supportive of his interpretation of this scan in which Reed enters the Crossroads of Infinity that he describes as "a world of limitless dimensions." as referring to the Negative Zone having infinite spatial dimensions.

-----------------------------

The opposing view, which I share along with Ant, is that this is not necessarily the best way to interpret the scan. It is worth noting that the Crossroads of Infinity is an access point to the various universes and realms in Marvel, so it could be said that the phrase "world of limitless dimensions" refers to the access point concept, rather than spatial dimensionality. Ultima has argued that the shifting dimensionality of the characters more strongly supports a spatial interpretation of that scan.

In other comics, however, the Negative Zone has been described as three-dimensional and has been described as an anti-matter opposite to the main universe. Such as in this scan which reads "We encounter other universes -- which may still have three spatial dimensions, but where natural laws may be somewhat different. The Negative Zone and the universe of Arkon's Pole-Machus are among only two of many of these."

So, by my assessment, I do not think the evidence for infinite dimensionality is strong enough to warrant such a change, as the language could be interpreted in the context of another piece of information about the Crossroads which has already been confirmed (that it is an access point to other worlds). If, however, we are to interpret the realm as infinite dimensional, given that it is sometimes portrayed as a parallel reality to the main universe, does that mean we should interpret all of the universes in Marvel as infinite dimensional? And if so, do we interpret universe-busters in Marvel as 1-B? (Or whatever tier this would indicate.) As Ant notes, this would be a somewhat extreme upgrade.

I hope I have presented the evidence and arguments on both sides fairly, but I welcome input from Ultima and Ant and of course any other users on the subject.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that the Negative Zone has prominently been established as being a regular-sized universe within Marvel Comics, as you can all, for example, see within the following comic books from the extremely prominent original "Annihilation" event:

read comic online.li/Comic/Thanos/Issue-7?id=55153

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation/Issue-1?id=39409

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Prologue/Full?id=75093

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Heralds-Of-Galactus/Issue-2?id=78094

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-The-Nova-Corps-Files/Full?id=83445

Also, the scans that are the main foundation for our current Marvel Comics cosmology scaling explicitly state that it is a 3-dimensional universe, so if anybody wants to throw away this evidence, they have to throw away the best evidence for an infinite-dimensional Marvel multiverse as well.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

In addition, movement within the Negative Zone, along with all of its inhabitants, has also been consistently portrayed as 3-dimensional since the 1960s.

As far as I am aware, mathematics allow higher-dimensional structures, such as nexuses, to intersect with lower-dimensional ones, and this fits with that these nexuses all allow transportation across the entire multiverse, rather than being confined to a single universe.

And given that the Negative Zone and all other regular Marvel universes have been established to be of comparative size, and all of our tier 2 Marvel Comics characters (including many regular superheroes and supervillains) are scaled from universe-destroying or creating-feats, all such tier 2 characters would have to be upgraded to tier High 1-B as a consequence, which would not be remotely reliable to say the least.

Also, such an enormously extreme change in Marvel Comics' cosmology must be extremely consistently adapted and officially endorsed by Marvel's editorial department, given how completely incoherent the setting as a whole is due to its around 84 years of history, several hundred independent writers, and around 100,000 comic book stories.

As I have mentioned repeatedly previously, including in our official rules for Marvel and DC Comics, we need a high degree of consistency for scaling these characters and settings, given how insanely inconsistent they inherently are, Marvel Comics in particular.

As such, I think that we should simply use Occam's razor, and consider the nexuses to simply intersect with lower 4-dimensional universes such as the Negative Zone; and definitely not that we should irresponsibly hand out enormous and massively destructive all-encompassing High 1-B upgrades to a large part of our featured Marvel Comics characters without taking into account that this verse is not remotely as consistent as ones penned by a single author across a single ongoing storyline.

I really hope that I can rely on our staff to try to be responsible in this regard.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Deagonx]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX

Your input would be appreciated here.

But I-

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am leaning towards agreeing with the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

But I-

My apologies. I was in a hurry.

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards agreeing with the downgrade.

Thank you, but I am not suggesting a downgrade. I am fine with scaling an infinite-dimensional nexus to the Marvel multiverse, if it is deemed reliable, just not to every single currently Low 2-C universe.

 

[Vasco]

Will reply later currently doing some work.

 

[Excellence616]

So, by my assessment, I do not think the evidence for infinite dimensionality is strong enough to warrant such a change, as the language could be interpreted in the context of another piece of information about the Crossroads which has already been confirmed (that it is an access point to other worlds). If, however, we are to interpret the realm as infinite dimensional, given that it is sometimes portrayed as a parallel reality to the main universe, does that mean we should interpret all of the universes in Marvel as infinite dimensional? And if so, do we interpret universe-busters in Marvel as 1-B? (Or whatever tier this would indicate.) As Ant notes, this would be a somewhat extreme upgrade.

If this gets accepted
1) Not all comics book appearance of the Negative Zone take it as infinite dimensional.
2) If this will later be an upgrade then like i said before
3) I hope this will not remove the other times where The Negative Zone is stated to be a Three Dimensional or Four Dimensional space
4) Would this make marvel 3d space be infinite dimensional?
5) This will call for a Marvel Cosmology Split

 

[Antvasima]

Will reply later currently doing some work.

No problem.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Alonik]

So apparently the 616 may have Low 1-C and accepted as such. The best solution is create a rule for characters not to scale the entirety of the 616 just because they are said to be capable of destroying the universe, each case has to be analyzed by case, and with much context and with great care. Otherwise we already have things that are part of the 616 that are seen as bigger than Low 2-C, because we have already accepted that not every character that claims to destroy the universe can actually destroy the above layers that scales higher than the Low 2-C that they have affected.

Because one thing is a fact, the Negative Zone and Subspace have justifications in several epochs for higher infinities and the idea of several different dimensionality from tier Low 1-C to High 1-B. The only problem here is accepting this as part of the Negative Zone even with the explicit demonstrations that it is, with the simple excuse that this will make herald level characters go to High 1-B, whereas in the infinite universe size thread it has already been decided that every quote about destroying the universe has to be shown to destroy beyond the observable universe to be considered at least High 3-A, and has to have solid evidence to reach even Low 2-C, and we know that no hero or herald has scales to the Negative Zone.

 

[Deagonx]

So apparently the 616 may have Low 1-C and accepted as such. The best solution is create a rule for characters not to scale the entirety of the 616 just because they are said to be capable of destroying the universe, each case has to be analyzed by case, and with much context and with great care.

The Dark Dimension isn't within Earth-616/a part of it. The Dark Dimension is an alternate realm alongside various universes such as Earth-616.

It seems that Dormammu is rated as Low 1-C primarily by scaling to Eternity, who is Low 1-C by way of interpreting Marvel's cosmology as having infinite dimensions. However the scans used to assert this are, in my assessment, somewhat poor. Only one of the six scans linked on Eternity's profile to suggest this actually mention infinite dimensions, and it's the Negative Zone scan which we are currently assessing. The rest say vague things like "observe the multiverse on infinite levels" which doesn't mean infinite spatial dimensions, and the following scan says that by seeing through this illusion it would collapse the wave function of all possible worlds into one actual one, which speaks more to a schrodinger esque quantum universe than anything spatial.

So really it comes down to: Is Eternity Low 1-C from the Negative Zone scan, and if not, what should he actually be and who will we update to reflect that?

 

[Excellence616]

2) If this will later be an upgrade then like i said before

That not all 2-C characters do actually deserve that 2-C. So there will be certain characters that will scale to the Negative Zone tier.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Dormammu mainly scales to being able to completely control or destroy the Dark Dimension, which has been stated to be a higher-dimensional universe than regular ones, but I may misremember the scaling issue.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence3.jpg

 

[Alonik]

The Dark Dimension isn't within Earth-616/a part of it. The Dark Dimension is an alternate realm alongside various universes such as Earth-616.

It seems that Dormammu is rated as Low 1-C primarily by scaling to Eternity, who is Low 1-C by way of interpreting Marvel's cosmology as having infinite dimensions. However the scans used to assert this are, in my assessment, somewhat poor. Only one of the six scans linked on Eternity's profile to suggest this actually mention infinite dimensions, and it's the Negative Zone scan which we are currently assessing. The rest say vague things like "observe the multiverse on infinite levels" which doesn't mean infinite spatial dimensions, and the following scan says that by seeing through this illusion it would collapse the wave function of all possible worlds into one actual one, which speaks more to a schrodinger esque quantum universe than anything spatial.

This part illusion was already debunk in the last thread, the case of Phygoras was brought out of context. About the Dark Dimension not being inside 616 here, fine. Tho, the proposal of the rule for scalling should still stand.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, universal Eternity is weirdly inconsistent. On the one hand he is sometimes portrayed as being comparable or superior to Low 1-C characters, and on the other he is usually portrayed as a sentient regular 4-dimensional universal space-time continuum, which other characters are rated as Low 2-C for being able to destroy.

 

[Deagonx]

This part illusion was already debunk in the last thread, the case of Phygoras was brought out of context.

Regardless, the phrase "observe the multiverse on infinite levels" doesn't necessitate spatial dimensions.

 

[Firestorm808]

Do we have the sources for the scans for me to catalogue?

 

[Antvasima]

Do we have the sources for the scans for me to catalogue?

See here:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Doctor_Strange,_Sorcerer_Supreme_Vol_1_21

https://imgur.io/gallery/cdaVekB

 

[Deagonx]

Do we have the sources for the scans for me to catalogue?

Yeah.

Fantastic Four Vol 1 #290

Fantastic Four Unlimited #3

Fantastic Four Unlimited #3

Fantastic Four Unlimited #3

FF Vol 2 #14 - 2014

Fantastic Four Vol 1 #319

Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #21

 

[LuciferX]

If reed actually said crossroads consists of infinite higher dimensions, why not upgrading him to High 1-B? You can't say there are "n" number of dimensions exist, if you can't preceive them.

 

[AKM sama]

Not really a fan of participating in comic high tier stuff because of how inconsistent they can be. But based on the information presented in the OP, I'd say it's safer to go with the latter interpretation.

 

[LuciferX]

This part illusion was already debunk in the last thread, the case of Phygoras was brought out of context. About the Dark Dimension not being inside 616 here, fine. Tho, the proposal of the rule for scalling should still stand.

No. they are still illusions. Amadeus's parents were dead before and he met his parents once in bubble realities. "quite real" mean fiction is real from inside but an illusion from outside. that's how reality> fiction works.

"None of these are real"

In the context "infinite level" meant anyone with a hypermind can perform infinite calcs of probablities. It's refering to bubble realities he stucked in, cuz it creates many possiblities in bubble realities when he observe possibiblities.

"but the whole panoply of possibilities in any situation, every possible quantum state and through that act of measurment that act of oberseving he can determine the state however unlikey, most favorable to him.

"It's a synthetic reality depend on our REAL REALITY"

Infinite levels are basically Quantum Possibilites.

 

[Deagonx]

No. they are still illusions. Amadeus's parents were dead before and he met his parents once in bubble realities. "quite real" mean fiction is real from inside but an illusion from outside. that's how reality> fiction works.



in the context "infinite level" meant anyone with a hypermind can perform infinite calcs of probablities. It's refering to bubble realities he stucked in, cuz it creates many possiblities in bubble realities when he observe possibiblities.
"It's a synthetic reality depend on our REAL REALITY"


Infinite levels are basically Quantum Possibilites.

Just a tip, if you're posting on mobile or something, those full sized scans are a huuuuuuge eye sore. I'd suggest either making them smaller in the post, or just making them hyperlinks.

 

[LuciferX]

Just a tip, if you're posting on mobile or something, those full sized scans are a huuuuuuge eye sore. I'd suggest either making them smaller in the post, or just making them hyperlinks.

Okay.

 

[Vasco]

"controlling dimensionality itself.

The context of this scan saying controlling dimensionality isn't talking about higher dimensions but normal positive universes, the scan didn't even mention anything about extra-dimensional space, Annihilus the supposed ruler of the Negative Zone doesn't even know it contains other universes(yet we are using this scan to push High 1-B in believing it contains infinite higher space-time) then Doctor Doom then said perhaps it doesn't contain them but interfacing all of creation, The Negative Zone would then be a Negative space between all positive matter across all positive realities , A bridge to everywhere.

This scan clearly shows the Negative Zone doesn't contain universes but a junction to all positive universes, Newer info from 2019 support this of Negative Zone not being an extra-dimensional space with a builder calling the Negative Zone a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one.

Further evidence describes controlling the power of the Negative Zone as "controlling dimensionality itself." In Ultima's view, this is supportive of his interpretation of this scan in which Reed enters the Crossroads of Infinity that he describes as "a world of limitless dimensions." as referring to the Negative Zone having infinite spatial dimensions.

Ultima said new information overrides old in the previous thread and in new info it's talking about junction to all positive matter universes not about infinite higher spatial dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

The context of this scan saying controlling dimensionality isn't talking about higher dimensions but normal positive universes, the scan didn't even mention anything about extra-dimensional space, Annihilus the supposed ruler of the Negative Zone doesn't even know it contains other universes(yet we are using this scan to push High 1-B in believing it contains infinite higher space-time) then Doctor Doom then said perhaps it doesn't contain them but interfacing all of creation, The Negative Zone would then be a Negative space between all positive matter across all positive realities , A bridge to everywhere.

This scan clearly shows the Negative Zone doesn't contain universes but a junction to all positive universes, Newer info from 2019 support this of Negative Zone not being an extra-dimensional space with a builder calling the Negative Zone a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one.

Thank you very much for helping out, but can you provide scans and/or issue references please?

Ultima said new information overrides old in the previous thread and in new info it's talking about junction to all positive matter universes not about infinite higher spatial dimensions.

Well, if he wants to override the main and most explicit foundation for our current scaling, by turning Doctor Strange #21 from 1990 invalid, that will also cause High 1-B or higher Marvel Comics to have a far less stable ground to stand on.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

In other comics, however, the Negative Zone has been described as three-dimensional and has been described as an anti-matter opposite to the main universe. Such as in this scan which reads "We encounter other universes -- which may still have three spatial dimensions, but where natural laws may be somewhat different. The Negative Zone and the universe of Arkon's Pole-Machus are among only two of many of these."

Ok but this doesn't contradict Ultima's point. The Negative Zone has 3 spatial dimensions. It doesn't say it only has 3 spatial dimensions. Both statements can mutually exist and be true.

Also, the scans that are the main foundation for our current Marvel Comics cosmology scaling explicitly state that it is a 3-dimensional universe, so if anybody wants to throw away this evidence, they have to throw away the best evidence for an infinite-dimensional Marvel multiverse as well.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

I also think you're taking the scan out of context. It literally opens with an explanation on how the human mind cannot fathom the size of the multiverse and they had to explain it in 2 dimensional terms for us to understand. Clearly the entire explanation isn't about the limits of the multiverse, rather just a fraction of it.

Also, such an enormously extreme change in Marvel Comics' cosmology must be extremely consistently adapted and officially endorsed by Marvel's editorial department, given how completely incoherent the setting as a whole is due to its around 84 years of history, several hundred independent writers, and around 100,000 comic book stories.

Ok but this doesn't mean anything. Things change over time and that includes the addtion of new information. That doesn't mean you have to toss away the old information or stick to it like gospel. If statements expand upon existing lore and don't hard contradict it, I don't see why we have to choose one or the other instead of just using both.

But take my words with a grain of salt. I'm just going off of what has been presented.

 

[Antvasima]

Ok but this doesn't contradict Ultima's point. The Negative Zone has 3 spatial dimensions. It doesn't say it only has 3 spatial dimensions. Both statements can mutually exist and be true.

The main points are that it has consistently only been shown to work in terms of regular 3-dimensional movement physics for 99.99% of its entire history, that the scans that are the main foundation for our Marvel Comics scaling explicitly state that it is 3-dimensional, that it was firmly established as being a regular-sized universe during the very prominent Annihilation event, that it makes much better sense that a nexus for multiversal transportation is not truly contained within it, just accessible from it, and that any changes to its scaling would automatically translate to insanely inflated and unreliable statistics for ALL higher-tiered regular superheroes and supervillains.

I also think you're taking the scan out of context. It literally opens with an explanation on how the human mind cannot fathom the size of the multiverse and they had to explain it in 2 dimensional terms for us to understand. Clearly the entire explanation isn't about the limits of the multiverse, rather just a fraction of it.

Yes, but they were talking about the multiverse in that context, not individual universes such as the Negative Zone. They were stated to be 3-dimensional.

Ok but this doesn't mean anything. Things change over time and that includes the addtion of new information. That doesn't mean you have to toss away the old information or stick to it like gospel. If statements expand upon existing lore and don't hard contradict it, I don't see why we have to choose one or the other instead of just using both.

My intended point was that Marvel Comics is insanely inconsistent to an as far as I am aware unmatched degree in prominent fictional settings, and as such even our rules state that we need to strive for a high degree of rational consistency when evaluating any scaling for it.

But take my words with a grain of salt. I'm just going off of what has been presented.

No problem. Thank you for trying to help out.

 

[Vasco]

Thank you very much for helping out, but can you provide scans and/or issue references please?

I replied based on the scan in the OP about "controlling dimensionality itself"
Deagonx drop the issue above FF Vol 2 #14 - 2014.

This scan clearly shows the Negative Zone doesn't contain universes but a junction to all positive universes, Newer info from 2019 support this of Negative Zone not being an extra-dimensional space with a builder calling the Negative Zone a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one.

●Here the Negative Zone is called a failed pocket universe resting inside an existing one: Avengers #21 (2013).
My bad this particular one is from (2013) not (2019)

These are the new info from 2019:
●It's called an alternate dimension here also: The Unbeatable Squirrel girl #43 (2019).
●Negative Zone is called an Anti-matter Underverse: Guardians of the galaxy #3 (2019).

As a matter of fact, the first appearance of Negative Zone supports my point, Annihilus called it a Universe of countless galaxies and an Anti-matter Universe in Fantastic Four Annual #6 (1961). I can read the book and send the scans if needed. And also the Doctor doom (2014) scan in the OP isn't talking of infinite higher spatial dimensions.

All recent mentions of Negative Zone dosen't make it sound like some extra-dimensional space containing Infinite Hierarchy of dimension and or even so is inconsistent.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Vasco.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The main points are that it has consistently only been shown to work in terms of regular 3-dimensional movement physics for 99.99% of its entire history, that the scans that are the main foundation for our Marvel Comics scaling explicitly state that it is 3-dimensional, that it was firmly established as being a regular-sized universe during the very prominent Annihilation event, that it makes much better sense that a nexus for multiversal transportation is not truly contained within it, just accessible from it, and that any changes to its scaling would automatically translate to insanely inflated and unreliable statistics for ALL higher-tiered regular superheroes and supervillains.

Ok but who exactly would scale to this who isn't already cosmic level?

Yes, but they were talking about the multiverse in that context, not individual universes such as the Negative Zone. They were stated to be 3-dimensional

The context of the whole thing was dumbed down for human minds. Regadless, it doesn't contradict my point about the statements existing mutually.

My intended point was that Marvel Comics is insanely inconsistent to an as far as I am aware unmatched degree in prominent fictional settings, and as such even our rules state that we need to strive for a high degree of rational consistency when evaluating any scaling for it.

Ok but I feel like you're overcomplicating things. Didn't the cosmology reset between the 7th and 8th multiverse?

 

[Antvasima]

Ok but who exactly would scale to this who isn't already cosmic level?

I think that you should agree that upgrading a large part of our featured regular superheroes and supervillains from tier Low 2-C or 2-C to infinite degrees of infinity (High 1-B) seems extremely exaggerated, no?

Here are some examples:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima/DPL#Marvel_Tier_2

The context of the whole thing was dumbed down for human minds. Regadless, it doesn't contradict my point about the statements existing mutually.

The Negative Zone was explicitly stated outright to be 3-dimensional in that set of scans, whereas the entirety of the Marvel multiverse was stated to be infinite-dimensional in contrast, and unlike what the alternative interpretation hinges on, this was very straightforward and not dependent on speculation or interpretation.

Ok but I feel like you're overcomplicating things. Didn't the cosmology reset between the 7th and 8th multiverse?

To a degree, but the main changes were that Jonathan Hickman retconned the entire multiverse into just being a finite set of alternate 4-dimensional universes, as it was possible to destroy completely by colliding them into each other, and that Al Ewing introduced a few new higher realms qualitatively beyond that scale afterwards, so the retconned Marvel multiverse does not seem to exceed tier High 1-C as far as I am aware, whereas the old structure from before when Joe Quesada took charge of Marvel Comics' editorial department legitimately was infinite-dimensional, although I do not know for certain to which degree.

 

[LuciferX]

1. Four Elder Gods (Cthlon,Gaea,Set and Oshtue) created the crossroads. (actually don't know whether it's same one in negative zone)

2. Here a direct confirmation crossroads leads to infinite alternate/alien dimensions not spatial dimensions as shown here, we can clearly see there are alt dimensions which affected by the battle between hulk and U-foes

3. Negative Zone is a bad continuum, created by a imprefect big bang while other universes had perfect big bangs.

 

[Vasco]

1. Four Elder Gods (Cthlon,Gaea,Set and Oshtue) created the crossroads. (actually don't know whether it's same one in negative zone)

The one I saw iirc is 6th Multiverse created it or had something to deal with it in the Ultimates.

 

[LuciferX]

The one I saw iirc is 6th Multiverse created it or had something to deal with it in the Ultimates.

True. but we don't know whether this is about same crossroads or not. anyways, second scan definitely debunks infinite dimensional thing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The opposing view, which I share along with Ant, is that this is not necessarily the best way to interpret the scan. It is worth noting that the Crossroads of Infinity is an access point to the various universes and realms in Marvel, so it could be said that the phrase "world of limitless dimensions" refers to the access point concept, rather than spatial dimensionality. Ultima has argued that the shifting dimensionality of the characters more strongly supports a spatial interpretation of that scan.

I don't think this interpretation is necessarily much better. To provide some framing for the panel in question (Which is, of course, from Fantastic Four Vol 1, #51), I might point out that it is prefaced by Reed Richards leaving reality and stating that he's just entered a 4-dimensional realm. Afterwards, the space around him shifts in some way as he tumbles into the edge of Subspace, and he then finds himself in the "world of limitless dimensions." Given that he makes the statement right after commenting out loud that he is in a 4-dimensional realm (They're continuous), I believe the assertion that it's referring to spatial dimensions does hold weight, supported by the scans already shown in the OP (Like in Fantastic Four Unlimited #3, where they constantly shift in numbers of dimensions when traveling through the Crossroads later on)

It's also important to note that the Crossroads are one specific realm, but one that happens to lead into all other realms. In Fantastic Four Full Circle, for one, Reed states the Crossroads of Infinity are the Distortion Area, which are described as the space between realities elsewhere. Under the analogy that the comics use, the Crossroads of Infinity would be the junction point in the middle of an intersection (It's called the "junction to everywhere," so, yeah): It's one single realm, not a part of any space, specifically, but one that nevertheless links to all of them. This is confirmed by Reed saying that Subspace isn't actually part of any of the other realms that it leads to.

This is to say: The Crossroads of Infinity connect to all realms, but they're also one single, specific place that forms the barrier between all the universes, so "limitless dimensions" being used as a descriptor of a property of this single realm already suggests it is being used in a spatial context (Especially since, as said, Subspace isn't really synonymous with the realms it leads to), and (Reiterating it) the fact that Reed makes this statement right after stating out loud that he's entered a 4-dimensional realm further strengthens it, as does him using the exact same verbiage ("Juncture of many dimensions") in the context of spatial dimensions in the FF Unlimited scans.

As for the 3-D Negative Zone stuff: I don't think it matters too much. The focus is on the Crossroads of Infinity, specifically, which we can perfectly treat as a separate realm from the Negative Zone itself. Using these statements to imply that the Crossroads are 3-D doesn't even make sense, anyway, since Reed first accesses them after reaching a 4-dimensional space, and in a later travel to it he comments that it contains 6-D spaces as well. Doesn't really compute.

I might also point out that Marvel has another infinite-dimensional statement that might well be used as support here, from Ghost Rider 2099, vol. 1, #25. Just putting it out there for now, though, since I'm going to read the comic myself to ascertain the context.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Four Elder Gods (Cthlon,Gaea,Set and Oshtue) created the crossroads. (actually don't know whether it's same one in negative zone)

Not the same, also. Given the Crossroads of Infinity were explicitly created by the Sixth Cosmos, as seen here. I assume the second scan you've posted refers to the same Crossroads as the first, although even if it didn't I wouldn't say it matters too much. The Crossroads of Infinity can be both an infinite-dimensional realm and a link to infinite alternate dimensions, those things are obviously not mutually exclusive, especially given that the focus here is on the one specific scan from FF #51, which is from a different comic than this one.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think that you should agree that upgrading a large part of our featured regular superheroes and supervillains from tier Low 2-C or 2-C to infinite degrees of infinity (High 1-B) seems extremely exaggerated, no?

Here are some examples:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima/DPL#Marvel_Tier_2

I'm gonna be real chief, I don't think literally everyone in that list will become High 1-B. Some of them only reach tier 2 through technology. Others are only tier 2 through specific means like Wolverine, whose claws have time and again been demonstrated as being capable of cutting things beyond his tier. I'm not a huge Marvel guy but from what little I understand, there is usually a logical explanation as to why certain characters suddenly jump tiers be it technology or amps. As long as characters consistently scale, where that scale is in regards to power should be meaningless.

The Negative Zone was explicitly stated outright to be 3-dimensional in that set of scans, whereas the entirety of the Marvel multiverse was stated to be infinite-dimensional in contrast, and unlike what the alternative interpretation hinges on, this was very straightforward and not dependent on speculation or interpretation.

No Ant, the Negative Zone was stated to possibly have three spatial dimensions. See below.

"We encounter other universes -- which may still have three spatial dimensions, but where natural laws may be somewhat different. The Negative Zone and the universe of Arkon's Pole-Machus are among only two of many of these."

It's not as set in stone as you're making it out to be. It's still speculative in context.

To a degree, but the main changes were that Jonathan Hickman retconned the entire multiverse into just being a finite set of alternate 4-dimensional universes, as it was possible to destroy completely by colliding them into each other, and that Al Ewing introduced a few new higher realms qualitatively beyond that scale afterwards, so the retconned Marvel multiverse does not seem to exceed tier High 1-C as far as I am aware, whereas the old structure from before when Joe Quesada took charge of Marvel Comics' editorial department legitimately was infinite-dimensional, although I do not know for certain to which degree.

Hmm. This seems like a separate topic. I will refrain from commenting further on this.