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- #41
Sorry, i will hopefully elaborate when i am free.
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DC Comics: Mandrakk Plot Manipulation addition
- Thread starter NHTkenshin2
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Mandrakk existing “at the end of all stories” to “devour the last traces of story” effectively creating a bad ending, is sufficient evidence that he’s interacting with the story, as Mandrakk would need to be able to interact with the story to devour its last traces. Furthermore, now that we know Mandrakk was interacting with the plot to create a bad ending to the story and that Superman had to overwrite Mandrakks manipulation by wishing for a happy ending, makes this 100% grounds for plot manipulation.
Read above ^
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You've just repeated yourself, so I'll do the same.
First, it is not sufficient evidence of that. Second, it is not enough that he merely "interact" with the plot. He must be able to willfully dictate what occurs. He should be able to literally decide what characters do, say, and think.
First, it is not sufficient evidence of that. Second, it is not enough that he merely "interact" with the plot. He must be able to willfully dictate what occurs. He should be able to literally decide what characters do, say, and think.
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I have doubts that literally eating the energy of the concept of story to make a bad ending counts as manipulating the plot.
I ate an entire reality, therefore I get Reality Manipulation?
I ate an entire reality, therefore I get Reality Manipulation?
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I didn’t repeat myself.
I get your analogy but it’s not what I’m saying. Mandrakk didn’t eat the narrative. What Mandrakk did was comparable to taking a narrative and set its progression to end how he wanted it to. That’s why Mandrakk existed where the story ends to devour the last traces of the story. By devouring the last traces of story, he’s effectively closing the book on the narrative/plot on his own record. The only reason this didn’t work was because Superman had reactivated the miracle machine which he used previously to wish for a happy ending, overwriting the bad ending Mandrakk was creating. Meaning it has to be plot manipulation since if it wasn’t, Superman wouldn’t have needed to reactivate the miracle machine.
Also I just wanted to point this out. A similar type of thing involving closing the narrative, occurs later in Multiversity. Specifically with Nix Uotan, the Gentry, and Ultracomics. And if Nix Uotan has plot manipulation, Mandrakk should have it by default.
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This has nothing to do with him altering the plot. He was just trying to kill everyone and consume the multiverse.
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Earth-33 is the Cubetime, it is the real world and it dictates the realities of all universes in the multiverse.
If The Bleed is interpreted as The Ink of story, then Earth-33s inhabitants are the ones who subconsciously send The Bleed to these universes, and give them characters, life and stories. Which is again, consistent with Grant Morrisons view on the Orrery and Hypertime
When using Morrisons cosmology or scaling his characters, we cant simply skim over these arguments when this is obviously what Grant Morrison is reaching for.
In Justice League Incarnatum for example (which isnt inconsistent with Grant Morrisons works) we know that Darkseid is an editor of DC Comics in Earth-33, thus is capable of editing DC narratives at will.
Mandrakk owning The Bleed means he can do the same.
By literally consuming story out of the Multiverse
Through the use of bleed, again, it is described as the life of stories, it gives them characters and narratives
Mandrakk was going to suck the bleed out of the Multiverse, thus sucking all life out of the story
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What should we classify it as? Some variation of higher dimensional energy Absorption?
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If Mandrakk was only trying to kill everyone, he would just talk about how he’s going to kill everyone. Which he doesn’t. Instead Mandrakk references how he’s interacting with the plot. Suggesting there’s more happening at play.
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It does qualify as plot manipulation. He’s literally altering the plot of Final Crisis. That’s the most basic example of plot manipulation. It doesn’t make any sense for Superman to reactivate the Miracle Machine which he previously used to wish for a happy ending, unless Mandrakk was messing with the plot.
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There's no evidence Mandrakk did that nor that Superman did with the Miracle Machine.
He used the Miracle Machine to prevent Mandrakk from winning, not to alter the plot.
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Symbolism combined with consumption of the fabric of reality perhaps?
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Yes, it seems like some form of reality warping, not plot manipulation as we define it.
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The crucial part is in bold. What seems to be misunderstood here is that we are not trying to determine if Mandrakk has an ability which -- in any possible context -- could plausibly be referred to as "manipulating the plot." It is whether or not he has the specific ability listed in the wiki as "plot manipulation" which he clearly doesn't have, and that absolutely none of the evidence thus far has even hinted at.
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- #56
This was far more controversial then what i thought it would be.
And i am honestly just repeating myself here, in Grant Morrisons cosmology, we know that these universes are narratives, we know non of it metaphorical or allegorical, we know the Bleed is the substance that makes up life, characters, the story and the meaning of a narrative, we also know Earth-33 can edit Narratives (using the Bleed, considering we have already established its importance to these narratives)
We have already established Mandrakk owns much more then a single drop of the Bleed, which literally gives you “ultimate power" in the context of all of the above. How is the assumption that Mandrakk can simply alter the plot to his will that contraversial?
How is claiming Mandrakk owns all stories that controversial?
This is just seems like downplaying in my opinion.
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Buddy, you can't say "we know" in front of a bunch of things simply because it was vaguely alluded to in an author statement with unclear implications.
Because he's never been shown to do that and there is explicit evidence against it, since he lost multiple times and never once used this mysterious power to try and win.
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You acknowledged that Mandrakk hasn't changed the events of an existing narrative.
Even the Power Listing Wiki gives the definition as "Users can control and manipulate the plot of the story as it goes, be it the setting of the story, whom the plot revolves around, how the plot progresses, or the reasoning of the user's world. They can control every decision the characters make and every consequence of those decisions and essentially control the whole timeline of their verse. You're manipulating the plot/narritive that the writer created."
This isn't downplay.
Mandrakk does not fit the definition of Plot Manipulation. We can't just assume he can due to his ability to use the energy of the concept of story.
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Yes. Mandrakk very clearly doesn't meet the requirements for having this ability.
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Okay. Since this topic pops up quite frequently, should we make an addition to our Discussion Rules page, or is this subject not sufficiently important for that?
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And yet, he owns the plot itself, where entities that are nowhere near that context can literally edit narratives
Anyways, it seems like people reject this, which honestly, in my opinion, doesn't make sense, as well as the disagreements arent really objective in the slightest, and moreso seem like different opinions getting more support
Mandrakk can eat plots, use plots and own plots, literally owning the ink of these narratives, there isnt any reason why he shouldn't at the very least have a “possibly Plot Manipulation".
These guys exist outside of the story itself, and use the ink of the story in many different ways, and at the end of the day, its a single hax, not really important for a whole rule
Anyways, it seems like people reject this, which honestly, in my opinion, doesn't make sense, as well as the disagreements arent really objective in the slightest, and moreso seem like different opinions getting more support
Mandrakk can eat plots, use plots and own plots, literally owning the ink of these narratives, there isnt any reason why he shouldn't at the very least have a “possibly Plot Manipulation".
I dont think its that important to the point of telling people not to bring it up like its Voldemort or something
These guys exist outside of the story itself, and use the ink of the story in many different ways, and at the end of the day, its a single hax, not really important for a whole rule
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Well, we can agree to disagree, but I do not see Mandrakk that way at all and I do not believe the information is a valid basis for such an interpretation. Ant and Firestorm have pretty definitively rejected this so I think it is best that we just move on, Mandrakk will not be given this ability in his profile.
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Not objective? We are using the definitions to classify his ability. It's straight forward.
You acknowledged that Mandrakk hasn't changed the events of an existing narrative.
You acknowledged that you're assuming Plot Manipulation based on the context of the Bleed.
Writing/editing a story on paper is different that straight up eating the paper with the words on it.
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With the recent revision to the ability page, I'll go ahead and add Limited Plot Manipulation to the profile.
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