- 6,021
- 253
I agree, no changes to AP and removal of PPKGiffoni said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Major Grappler Baki Powers and Abilities Revisions
- Thread starter Amlad22
- Start date
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #283
Yeah I agree with precog being replaced with simply enhanced senses. Everything else seems good too. Power mimicry and AP are extremely fast but not instantaneous like IA. It's something small but important to note for sure.
I do disagree with removal of durability negation for Benda Whip. The move is directly stated to be capable of killing people through the pain of the attack alone. Now obviously this is only durability negation on those with a human anatomy and those who are susceptible to pain, hence why it's limited durability negation and why I think it's fine. Only thing I personally disagree with here.
I do disagree with removal of durability negation for Benda Whip. The move is directly stated to be capable of killing people through the pain of the attack alone. Now obviously this is only durability negation on those with a human anatomy and those who are susceptible to pain, hence why it's limited durability negation and why I think it's fine. Only thing I personally disagree with here.
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #284
Also I have a question for anyone who can answer. I know there is a calc on the wiki that has the minimum durability required to be completely bulletproof and it uses the biggest bullet size and the yield is City Block Level.
In Baki Gaiden Scarface, Hanayama's durability is put to the test and a group of 3 thugs shoot him with rounds "like a magnum" because smaller rounds don't work on him. So my question is how much does the yield decrease if we assume he is only bulletproof up to magnum rounds? I'm assuming somewhere in building level given that magnum rounds can be pretty big still.
In Baki Gaiden Scarface, Hanayama's durability is put to the test and a group of 3 thugs shoot him with rounds "like a magnum" because smaller rounds don't work on him. So my question is how much does the yield decrease if we assume he is only bulletproof up to magnum rounds? I'm assuming somewhere in building level given that magnum rounds can be pretty big still.
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #288
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ability_Required_to_be_Completely_Bulletproof
This is the calc. Far past 9-B because it's simply addressing how powerful one needs to be completely bulletproof. The piercing power of a bullet is far above the AP most of the time.
This is the calc. Far past 9-B because it's simply addressing how powerful one needs to be completely bulletproof. The piercing power of a bullet is far above the AP most of the time.
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #290
Honestly I can probably follow the same method myself just use different numbers. Hanayama has a much larger surface area than a normal human and the bullet area will also change if I'm using a magnum bullet. Does anyone know what the best caliber round to use would be? Perhaps a 7.62mm?
- 2,616
- 166
Alright well I'm fine with any of the other revisions.
I really don't know enough about the Banda whip and such but I'll have to see the feats for myself later on. I'm 50/50 on it either way since it can argue that the impact itself could be negated by having a higher AP thus you don't even feel the pain. At the same time if it's aimed for the nerves, it seems like it's a durabilty negation.
I really don't know enough about the Banda whip and such but I'll have to see the feats for myself later on. I'm 50/50 on it either way since it can argue that the impact itself could be negated by having a higher AP thus you don't even feel the pain. At the same time if it's aimed for the nerves, it seems like it's a durabilty negation.
- 6,021
- 253
Ah, gotcha. Alright, that's thatAmlad22 said:
On to the matter of the bullet
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #296
@Ciruno
Both times it was used it was used on stronger opponents and worked fine. Yanagi used it against Post Powerup Baki who was vastly stronger and then in SOO Baki used it against Yujiro and it worked there too. Yujiro only didn't show pain because he has ridiculous pain tolerance, but it was stated to still make him feel pain.
As for the bullet, there is no info online about the length of bullet tips, only the rest of the bullet. After looking I'd say the best bullet to use would be either a .357 magnum round as they are relatively common and is a handgun rather than a rifle. If anyone could pixel scale to see the diameter of the bullet tip of one of those that would be all we need. In case it's needed the diameter of the base of a .357 magnum round is usually 8.89mm.
Both times it was used it was used on stronger opponents and worked fine. Yanagi used it against Post Powerup Baki who was vastly stronger and then in SOO Baki used it against Yujiro and it worked there too. Yujiro only didn't show pain because he has ridiculous pain tolerance, but it was stated to still make him feel pain.
As for the bullet, there is no info online about the length of bullet tips, only the rest of the bullet. After looking I'd say the best bullet to use would be either a .357 magnum round as they are relatively common and is a handgun rather than a rifle. If anyone could pixel scale to see the diameter of the bullet tip of one of those that would be all we need. In case it's needed the diameter of the base of a .357 magnum round is usually 8.89mm.
- 2,616
- 166
Which chapters were those? Just want to check it out. I'm not aiming to argue on that though I trust your knowledge on it
Also Amlad, do you think Kaku is strictly Tier 10 most of the time and even in combat? Because he's performed Tier 7 feats without using his skill or techniques. Typically I'd chalk it up to outliers but there are an abundant amount of them and he did go fist to fist with Yujiro, and still took numerous hits from Yujiro without his technique.
Also Amlad, do you think Kaku is strictly Tier 10 most of the time and even in combat? Because he's performed Tier 7 feats without using his skill or techniques. Typically I'd chalk it up to outliers but there are an abundant amount of them and he did go fist to fist with Yujiro, and still took numerous hits from Yujiro without his technique.
- 2,616
- 166
No worries, also did a little edit on my msg
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #300
So you're gonna want to see Son of Ogre chapter 255 and New Grappler Baki chapter 134. I use the manga rock app so I can't link the chapters as easily sorry.
I would say that's just Xiao Lee at work. We know that Xiao Lee can absorb energy and hold onto it for prolonged periods of times. He's even capable of using the same energy for multiple attacks. There's no reason that Kaku can't hold onto the same energy he gets from yujiro during their fight and use it to amp his body. As long as he's continuously using defensive Xiao Lee to absorb more energy, which he was, it makes no sense that his only option with that energy is to release it offensively as a punch or kick. I'd argue that he can also augment his body with it. Itagaki is very inconsistent, but he very clearly wanted Kaku Kaioh to be weak without Xiao Lee. That was his whole point as a character, that skill can allow a weak fighter to compete with monsters like Yujiro.
I would say that's just Xiao Lee at work. We know that Xiao Lee can absorb energy and hold onto it for prolonged periods of times. He's even capable of using the same energy for multiple attacks. There's no reason that Kaku can't hold onto the same energy he gets from yujiro during their fight and use it to amp his body. As long as he's continuously using defensive Xiao Lee to absorb more energy, which he was, it makes no sense that his only option with that energy is to release it offensively as a punch or kick. I'd argue that he can also augment his body with it. Itagaki is very inconsistent, but he very clearly wanted Kaku Kaioh to be weak without Xiao Lee. That was his whole point as a character, that skill can allow a weak fighter to compete with monsters like Yujiro.
- 2,616
- 166
No worries, I use it too anyway lol
Hmm.. Honestly with the amount of hits he's absorbing and the cancellation of said techniques it feels like he really isn't. Since he still needs to be able to hold that energy and receive the hit in the first place. Isn't it possible that he's still durable enough since Yujiro's goal was to drag the actual fighting spirit/animal out of him? Gtg to work rn so will talk more later!
Though this can mean his tier varies in between those.
Hmm.. Honestly with the amount of hits he's absorbing and the cancellation of said techniques it feels like he really isn't. Since he still needs to be able to hold that energy and receive the hit in the first place. Isn't it possible that he's still durable enough since Yujiro's goal was to drag the actual fighting spirit/animal out of him? Gtg to work rn so will talk more later!
Though this can mean his tier varies in between those.
- 6,021
- 253
Agreed
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #303
The reason Kaku can take the first hits is due to defensive Xiao Lee negating the damage. The only direct hits he takes are mid way into the fight after he has shown to have absorbed Yujiro's energy. We also get the quote from Retsu that says Yujiro is slamming Kaku against the walls to disperse the energy gathered from Xiao Lee, meaning Kaku still had energy stored inside of him from earlier and Yujiro was forcing it out. That's how I saw the scene at least. I blame Itagaki's inconsistency for all of this lol.
As you say though he does vary greatly no matter what due to the nature of Xiao Lee. In the same way that Shibukawa's Aiki can vary. All we know is that Kaku's max energy input he can take before Xiao Lee fails is somewhere in 7-C
As you say though he does vary greatly no matter what due to the nature of Xiao Lee. In the same way that Shibukawa's Aiki can vary. All we know is that Kaku's max energy input he can take before Xiao Lee fails is somewhere in 7-C
- 2,616
- 166
Somehow I didn't get a notification for this.
Didn't he also crash into the wall numerous times with his disciples calling out "He can't use Xiao Lee" and such? And lol, yeah we wouldn't be arguing (well me and Baki) os much about this if if it was just more direct. I still feel that in order to be able to take in that amount of damage, your body should have a durability limit or some sort of haxx that isn't just physical.
Makes sense to me. Honestly? I think it's just too confusing and inconsistent to argue. I still strongly believe that the old man isn't Tier 10 though but I don't really wanna force a revision on that since the focus is on another topic.
In other cases...
KGiffoni, do you still think AP shouldn't be changed? On it being not instant and more of a long term ability?
Any other voters for here? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3809334
Bonus - Instinctive Reaction should only apply to Baki due to it seeming like it's only developed by Baki on his quote, and the existence of far too many Anti-feats for Yujiro.
Didn't he also crash into the wall numerous times with his disciples calling out "He can't use Xiao Lee" and such? And lol, yeah we wouldn't be arguing (well me and Baki) os much about this if if it was just more direct. I still feel that in order to be able to take in that amount of damage, your body should have a durability limit or some sort of haxx that isn't just physical.
Makes sense to me. Honestly? I think it's just too confusing and inconsistent to argue. I still strongly believe that the old man isn't Tier 10 though but I don't really wanna force a revision on that since the focus is on another topic.
In other cases...
KGiffoni, do you still think AP shouldn't be changed? On it being not instant and more of a long term ability?
Any other voters for here? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3809334
Bonus - Instinctive Reaction should only apply to Baki due to it seeming like it's only developed by Baki on his quote, and the existence of far too many Anti-feats for Yujiro.
- 6,021
- 253
Sorry to sidetrack, but I have a question for a current match: by how much does Sangan amp Doppo and would it be the same, higher, or lower for Yujiro if he was to use it?
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #306
Well there's no solid multiplier, all we know is that Doppo was able to react to and parry attack that he previously couldn't react to.
Yujiro 100% knows how to do it given his power mimicry is at an absurd level. But the fact that he chooses to use other stat amping abilities in his fights tells me that Sangan isn't something he considers to be one of his best abilities. He should still get an amp though likely at least comparable to what Doppo got.
Yujiro 100% knows how to do it given his power mimicry is at an absurd level. But the fact that he chooses to use other stat amping abilities in his fights tells me that Sangan isn't something he considers to be one of his best abilities. He should still get an amp though likely at least comparable to what Doppo got.
- 6,021
- 253
Thanks, I'll use this in the debate because honestly, I couldn't word it better if I triedAmlad22 said:
- 6,021
- 253
Making an Ali page, thinkin 3 keys, Boxing Prime, incomplete Ali style MMA, and Past Prime. What are we thinking for stats? I've got speed for all three keys (0.11 second punches based on the interview with that weird Japanese interviewer, scales to Yujiro, but slower than him, and in his past prime, same stats as his prime, but with 1 minute of stamina.)
What are we thinkin for speed and durability?
What are we thinkin for speed and durability?
- 6,021
- 253
Nevermind about 3 keys, I'm doing 2 keys: Prime and Past Prime. I'll treat Ali style MMA as a stat amp for being able to tag Yujiro. Is that okay?
EDIT: Actually, what would the speed for Prime Ali? I'm not sure of the conversion for 1 punch in 0.11 seconds
EDIT: Actually, what would the speed for Prime Ali? I'm not sure of the conversion for 1 punch in 0.11 seconds
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #310
Was actually thinking about this myself earlier.
Firstly the 0.11 seconds thing is nonsense and is Itagaki attempting to ground the verse. Like when he said Oliva could only deadlift half a ton.
His Ali style isn't as much of an amp, it's more he's just not holding back. He's using everything he knows. It honestly reminds me of Gaolong from Kengan when he started using Muay Thai against Agito. It's not him amping himself, he's just not holding back anymore.
Overall though Ali deserves an At least Supersonic likely Hypersonic rating in speed for his prime. Tagging Yujiro grants him that although we don't know to what degree yujiro was holding back hence the likely.
Power and durability wise I think 9-A is the only choice. Given his status as the best boxer of all time he should be above Iron Mike who should also be 9-A for many reasons. He also should be comparable to Joe Frazier's character who fought on equal ground with Retsu. Past prime scales to this ofc. Past prime also has the feat of being able to slightly bruise Baki with a surprise punch. This is post raitai Baki so he's far above the 9-A's and it's another supporting feat for 9-A Ali.
Firstly the 0.11 seconds thing is nonsense and is Itagaki attempting to ground the verse. Like when he said Oliva could only deadlift half a ton.
His Ali style isn't as much of an amp, it's more he's just not holding back. He's using everything he knows. It honestly reminds me of Gaolong from Kengan when he started using Muay Thai against Agito. It's not him amping himself, he's just not holding back anymore.
Overall though Ali deserves an At least Supersonic likely Hypersonic rating in speed for his prime. Tagging Yujiro grants him that although we don't know to what degree yujiro was holding back hence the likely.
Power and durability wise I think 9-A is the only choice. Given his status as the best boxer of all time he should be above Iron Mike who should also be 9-A for many reasons. He also should be comparable to Joe Frazier's character who fought on equal ground with Retsu. Past prime scales to this ofc. Past prime also has the feat of being able to slightly bruise Baki with a surprise punch. This is post raitai Baki so he's far above the 9-A's and it's another supporting feat for 9-A Ali.
- 6,021
- 253
Got it, Ali style isn't really an amp, 9-A Prime and Past Prime,and at least Supersonic, likely Hypersonic. I'll add in his weaknesses that he's not likely to go all out from the get-go, relying on boxing more than Ali style unless entirely outclassed like against Yujiro
- 2,742
- 182
Shouldn't Hanayama have something in the lines of "limited animal manipulation" for taming a Tibetan Mastiff without resorting to violence? Like, literally the dog, one of the most aggressive races, was tamed by Hanayama after instinctively sensing his strength.
- 6,021
- 253
What about Ali's lifting strength?
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #314
Hanayama was just too strong. The dog sensed the massive gap in power and submitted rather than face certain death. It could be possible fear manipulation since he scared the shit out of him. Hanayama defiantly has an aura to him similar to Yujiro and Musashi just to a vastly less degree.
As for Ali. I mean, have we seen him lift anything? He's at least peak human but I don't think he has any feats to put him higher.
As for Ali. I mean, have we seen him lift anything? He's at least peak human but I don't think he has any feats to put him higher.
- 6,021
- 253
I'll mark it as such
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #317
From a first glance the ratings look good.
Also I have a quick change that I wanted to run by the people here. Hanayama's maximum tournament key deserves the likely higher rating imo. Either that or Filth should have his removed as Hanayama should be above him given his status and title as the strongest brawler. Filth did damage Doppo, but Doppo let all the hits land and didn't even put up any resistance. As soon as he got serious he one shot Filth as well. What do you guys think? Does Filth lose his likely higher rating or does Hanayama gain one.
Also I have a quick change that I wanted to run by the people here. Hanayama's maximum tournament key deserves the likely higher rating imo. Either that or Filth should have his removed as Hanayama should be above him given his status and title as the strongest brawler. Filth did damage Doppo, but Doppo let all the hits land and didn't even put up any resistance. As soon as he got serious he one shot Filth as well. What do you guys think? Does Filth lose his likely higher rating or does Hanayama gain one.
- 6,021
- 253
Is it possible that both should take place? Filth clearly wasn't a threat to Doppo, so the resistance was minor at best, and Hanayama is clearly one of the strongest fighters in the tournament.
- 2,138
- 243
- Thread starter
- #320
All the prisoners scale to 9-A, even Yanagi who is the weakest one. Majority of the maximum tourney cast can make 9-A honestly. Beginning of series Baki is bare minimum 9-B+ due to being superior to his 13yo self who was 4x stronger than 15yo Hanayama.
14yo Hanayama has the feat you calced for us at 1.24 million joules. Even if you assume Hanayama's power only doubled over the span of a year he'd be 2.48 million joules and Baki would be 9.92 million. Just barely under Wall Level+. Since beginning of series Baki is a good amount above his 13yo self, he's at least wall level+ likely small building level. This is important because Baki fights quite a few people at this point. Mainly Kosho, Mount Toba and Kureha. Mount Toba is shown to match Baki physically, only losing due to his bad knee. And Kureha is also a match for Baki being slightly weaker. At this point those two would also be 9-B+ to 9-A.
By the time of the maximum tournament, Kosho has increased his power to the point where he was confident he could defeat an even stronger Baki and also his brother. Which mean he should also by that point be approaching 9-A if not already there. Then Kosho gets even stronger after the maximum tourney due to his increase in training which causes Strydum to call him a different person. At this point there is no doubt he should be 9-A. And this is ofc when he fights Doyle. Who takes multiple of his blows with minimal damage.
This is only one way to prove 9-A Doyle, I could have also gone the route of proving Yanagi is 9-A and then scale Doyle to him. But this works as well.
14yo Hanayama has the feat you calced for us at 1.24 million joules. Even if you assume Hanayama's power only doubled over the span of a year he'd be 2.48 million joules and Baki would be 9.92 million. Just barely under Wall Level+. Since beginning of series Baki is a good amount above his 13yo self, he's at least wall level+ likely small building level. This is important because Baki fights quite a few people at this point. Mainly Kosho, Mount Toba and Kureha. Mount Toba is shown to match Baki physically, only losing due to his bad knee. And Kureha is also a match for Baki being slightly weaker. At this point those two would also be 9-B+ to 9-A.
By the time of the maximum tournament, Kosho has increased his power to the point where he was confident he could defeat an even stronger Baki and also his brother. Which mean he should also by that point be approaching 9-A if not already there. Then Kosho gets even stronger after the maximum tourney due to his increase in training which causes Strydum to call him a different person. At this point there is no doubt he should be 9-A. And this is ofc when he fights Doyle. Who takes multiple of his blows with minimal damage.
This is only one way to prove 9-A Doyle, I could have also gone the route of proving Yanagi is 9-A and then scale Doyle to him. But this works as well.
Similar threads
