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Major DBZ and DBS Upgrades (Since Nobody is Unlocking the 2-C Crt)

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Chariot190 said:
How do you not, literally everything regarding the ToP is a flat-out contradiction.
And I'm sure if you looked through episodes you'd find more examples of fights occurring over finite time or while non-infinite actions and events transpire.

Because characters with infinite speed fighting without break shouldn't have any time pass at all. Every fight that happens in the ToP should have, and would have, happened in 0 time at all, from start to finish, this is problematic, because there's multiple points where fights between alleged infinite characters transpire and nothing else, but time still goes down (Every episode at the end has a statement saying how much time passed).
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Dalesean027 said:
Not even just that, the "finite" speed character would still have to downscale the Infinite speed characters to percieve the fight and you can't downscale infinity so they'd literally all just be infinite which would throw the entire TOP timeframe and narrative out the window as it would've just occurred in 0 time.

You'd also have to assume that if combat only is infinite that they suddenly drop an actual infinite amount in speed the moment they start flying long distances all the way down to MFTL+ and no matter how fast a finite speed is you're saying they suddenly drop an actual infinite amount in speed from combat to flight in a UES that covers speed in its power systems
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We can just consider that a script error, but Akira toriyama wanted this to happen, let's not use these silly arguments to debunk something so obvious. It probably should work for everyone, since for that you would have to clear hundreds of proofs that the universe is not infinite, in BOG Goku and Beerus reacts to this wave that covered the entire macrocosm. If we use these same arguments we could use the same thing to refute other verses of having infinite speed, due to a certain character not running in time 0 and taking hours or days to go through that location. So for that reason one would probably be best, we even have more proof of that, what do you think?
 
Dalesean027 said:
This is especially considering they get stronger and faster from BoG onwards by hundrerds of thousands to millions of times easily by the TOP (lowballing) so that the level of infinity they'd be at by then would still just utterly fall apart the moment they start flying, like do I even need to explain why that's wrong.
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Btw, could you tag Damage here? I'm pretty sure he disagrees with infinite speed also so he might give his input
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
We can just consider that a script error, but Akira toriyama wanted this to happen, let's not use these silly arguments to debunk something so obvious. It probably should work for everyone, since for that you would have to clear hundreds of proofs that the universe is not infinite, in BOG Goku and Beerus reacts to this wave that covered the entire macrocosm. If we use these same arguments we could use the same thing to refute other verses of having infinite speed, due to a certain character not running in time 0 and taking hours or days to go through that location. So for that reason one would probably be best, we even have more proof of that, what do you think?
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You cannot prove that its " just a script error" or that our arguments against this are just "silly arguments to debunk something obvious" my guy battle of gods has been done how many times across how many mediums with the same big key points being hit across them all. If anything the unintended feat is the one infinite speed feat that's clearly contradicted by the rest of super be it manga or anime given the amount of time based feats and events we have in the series none of which involve 0 time movement. Well unless you actually just take Jiren surpassing time itself literally but even then that's supposed to be this impressive thing that is only reached in the TOP so it'd still contradict infinite speed BoG
 
omegabronic said:
well, another problem brought up was this


for some examples of some of people bringing up this problem, i am quite neutral myself tho
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Well like I said
Finite Travel Speed could explain those relativity easily
The move at MFLT speeds but fight at infinite speeds so any time when their not fighting, standing still like they always do occasionally, having motivation speeches, picking themselves up from having been smacked on the floor, etc that’s where the timeframe usage mainly stems from.

Given the counter arguments seem to stem from movement speed
Cause numerous times in the series we see characters displaying feats that could wipe out the Infinite Macrocosm in few shots to one shot. So I would save the Combat Speed should be fine more or less
Dalesean027 said:
You'd also have to assume that if combat only is infinite that they suddenly drop an actual infinite amount in speed the moment they start flying long distances all the way down to MFTL+ and no matter how fast a finite speed is you're saying they suddenly drop an actual infinite amount in speed from combat to flight in a UES that covers speed in its power systems
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We have DB character profiles of characters with Hypersonic Travel Speed and MFTL+ Combat Speed
I honestly don’t think it’s impossible

The Whis and Gas issue I’m not sure why you consider those issues. Infinite Speed is given to those who can cross infinite distances in finite time. So even crossing the universe in hours to even days would still warrant speed given they crossed and infinite distance in finite time

So if Whis and Gas take Finite time to move from Point A to Point B why is that an issue?
Is it assumed by default that if a character can cross infinite distance in finite then they can cross finite distance in Infinite/Zero Time?
Not that it matters much… cause that again is more or less a movement speed issue, Gas is manga only and Whis IIRC has feats of flying to other universes such as when he flew Goku and Beerus to Universe 10 so that’s another example of Whis Crossing Infinite Distances

The Entire ToP issue I consider it a script error or just PIS or just Toriyama writing the story to fit his own grand vision rather than that of the Wiki given he’s not aware of the standards of the Wiki to begin with. Honestly I can’t make heads or tails of the ToP because the Time Limit to begin with seems like a huge Plot Convenient Device to make the narrative have more stakes involved and a huge middle finger (contradiction) to Infinite Speed standards. Treat the ToP as you will, either a huge PIS to make the narrative work or a huge contradiction to previously established rates of infinite speed
 
Dalesean027 said:
You cannot prove that its " just a script error" or that our arguments against this are just "silly arguments to debunk something obvious" my guy battle of gods has been done how many times across how many mediums with the same big key points being hit across them all. If anything the unintended feat is the one infinite speed feat that's clearly contradicted by the rest of super be it manga or anime given the amount of time based feats and events we have in the series none of which involve 0 time movement. Well unless you actually just take Jiren surpassing time itself literally but even then that's supposed to be this impressive thing that is only reached in the TOP so it'd still contradict infinite speed BoG
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Have to agree. Infinite speed just doesn't work with DBS when taking everything into account.
 
Ss3micah said:
We have DB character profiles of characters with Hypersonic Travel Speed and MFTL+ Combat Speed
I honestly don’t think it’s impossible
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That speed is quite literally less of a difference than an entire level of infinity separating them so that's not good at all as an example
 
omegabronic said:
if the ap upgrades make an actual speed downgrade it will be so funny fr
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Nah they still MFTL+ to all hell.
We can just consider that a script error,
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It happens once ok, nothing is ever perfect, it happens all the time, not ok. At that point the error becomes very consistent.
but Akira toriyama wanted this to happen,
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Isn't that just a way of saying he doesn't intend for them to be able to fight in literal 0 time?
let's not use these silly arguments to debunk something so obvious.
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My brother in christ, from my point of view, it's obvious they aren't infinite, I'm just explaining why, instead of saying it's obvious. There's too many contradictions that don't have actual explanations for them beyond just saying PIS, but if everything is PIS, is it truly PIS at that point?
It probably should work for everyone, since for that you would have to clear hundreds of proofs that the universe is not infinite,
Click to expand...
Not true, the universe can be infinite, and nobody is saying it can't be, it doesn't mean the byproducts regarding speed ain't contradicted enough times to be rendered sus as ****.
in BOG Goku and Beerus reacts to this wave that covered the entire macrocosm.
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This is true, that is, technically, an infinite speed feat, but I could also argue the infinite speed aspect of it is a completely unintentional consequence of the cosmology, and while that doesn't discredit the feat, after all, if the author ***** up and makes a good feat that doesn't mean the feat doesn't exist, but the opposite also applies, if an infinite feat happens and it's contradicted blatantly 50+ times after or whatever arbitrary number, we have an issue now.

To be honest, I get why Infinite speed is being argued, in a vacuum it makes sense, on paper it checks out, but taking everything together is when it gets a tad fishy.
If we use these same arguments we could use the same thing to refute other verses of having infinite speed,
Click to expand...
Yes.
due to a certain character not running in time 0 and taking hours or days to go through that location.
Click to expand...
Yes, we'd take what's more consistent or checks out.
So for that reason one would probably be best, we even have more proof of that, what do you think?
Click to expand...
I think I'm going to need to see quite a few more infinite speed feats before being willing to handwave the whole ToP, and probably a dozen other random scenes throughout Super's runtime.
Thank **** this doesn't include the manga btw, Gas getting memed on by an IT, a technique that IS effectively infinite speed in function, moving from Point A to B in 0 time, would make this even worse.
 
btw, the infinite speed feat is a consequence of the now mftl+ feat being upgraded due to the cosmology change, so if infinite is not valid someone would need to find a new value for them to scale to, which i assume would just be further multiplication for the dbz values
 
Chariot190 said:
Nah they still MFTL+ to all hell.

It happens once ok, nothing is ever perfect, it happens all the time, not ok. At that point the error becomes very consistent.

Isn't that just a way of saying he doesn't intend for them to be able to fight in literal 0 time?

My brother in christ, from my point of view, it's obvious they aren't infinite, I'm just explaining why, instead of saying it's obvious. There's too many contradictions that don't have actual explanations for them beyond just saying PIS, but if everything is PIS, is it truly PIS at that point?

Not true, the universe can be infinite, and nobody is saying it can't be, it doesn't mean the byproducts regarding speed ain't contradicted enough times to be rendered sus as ****.

This is true, that is, technically, an infinite speed feat, but I could also argue the infinite speed aspect of it is a completely unintentional consequence of the cosmology, and while that doesn't discredit the feat, after all, if the author ***** up and makes a good feat that doesn't mean the feat doesn't exist, but the opposite also applies, if an infinite feat happens and it's contradicted blatantly 50+ times after or whatever arbitrary number, we have an issue now.

To be honest, I get why Infinite speed is being argued, in a vacuum it makes sense, on paper it checks out, but taking everything together is when it gets a tad fishy.

Yes.

Yes, we'd take what's more consistent or checks out.

I think I'm going to need to see quite a few more infinite speed feats before being willing to handwave the whole ToP, and probably a dozen other random scenes throughout Super's runtime.
Thank **** this doesn't include the manga btw, Gas getting memed on by an IT, a technique that IS effectively infinite speed in function, moving from Point A to B in 0 time, would make this even worse.
Click to expand...
Literally this I'd say chariot is saying it better than myself, no one is discrediting the feat like its right there and it exist and I'm not arguing against it either. But after that feat there's just numerous antis that bring it into question
 
Dalesean027 said:
That speed is quite literally less of a difference than an entire level of infinity separating them so that's not good at all as an example
Click to expand...
Just a question, why do we consider other verses if this happens to us? Do they also take time to travel such a location and are several characters able to see them reaching these speeds? Why does this happen every time when it's with DB?
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Just a question, why do we consider other verses if this happens to us? Do they also take time to travel such a location and are several characters able to see them reaching these speeds? Why does this happen every time when it's with DB?
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My guy I hope you aren't insinuating I'm just downplaying db because its db like I genuinely hope you aren't considering my love for this series or how many times I've stood right by these upgrades as the series has been attacked to and from and been downplayed for forever.

Disrespectful as hell but im not gonna go further than that or I'll get reported but don't try that shit man, Ain't no one here got a agenda against dragon ball so don't stir up random shit by insinuating that
 
BlastX said:
Can't the Infinite feat instead become "Possibly Infinite" and we call it a day?
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Dalesean027 said:
Literally this I'd say chariot is saying it better than myself, no one is discrediting the feat like its right there and it exist and I'm not arguing against it either. But after that feat there's just numerous antis that bring it into question
Click to expand...
Chariot190 said:
Nah they still MFTL+ to all hell.

It happens once ok, nothing is ever perfect, it happens all the time, not ok. At that point the error becomes very consistent.

Isn't that just a way of saying he doesn't intend for them to be able to fight in literal 0 time?

My brother in christ, from my point of view, it's obvious they aren't infinite, I'm just explaining why, instead of saying it's obvious. There's too many contradictions that don't have actual explanations for them beyond just saying PIS, but if everything is PIS, is it truly PIS at that point?

Not true, the universe can be infinite, and nobody is saying it can't be, it doesn't mean the byproducts regarding speed ain't contradicted enough times to be rendered sus as ****.

This is true, that is, technically, an infinite speed feat, but I could also argue the infinite speed aspect of it is a completely unintentional consequence of the cosmology, and while that doesn't discredit the feat, after all, if the author ***** up and makes a good feat that doesn't mean the feat doesn't exist, but the opposite also applies, if an infinite feat happens and it's contradicted blatantly 50+ times after or whatever arbitrary number, we have an issue now.

To be honest, I get why Infinite speed is being argued, in a vacuum it makes sense, on paper it checks out, but taking everything together is when it gets a tad fishy.

Yes.

Yes, we'd take what's more consistent or checks out.

I think I'm going to need to see quite a few more infinite speed feats before being willing to handwave the whole ToP, and probably a dozen other random scenes throughout Super's runtime.
Thank **** this doesn't include the manga btw, Gas getting memed on by an IT, a technique that IS effectively infinite speed in function, moving from Point A to B in 0 time, would make this even worse.
Click to expand...
LordTracer said:
I think Infinite speed is incredibly sus and faulty too, that’s why I only gave agreement to 2-C for anime DBS.
Click to expand...
What do you think?
 
Dalesean027 said:
My guy I hope you aren't insinuating I'm just downplaying db because its db like I genuinely hope you aren't considering my love for this series or how many times I've stood right by these upgrades as the series has been attacked to and from and been downplayed for forever.

Disrespectful as hell but im not gonna go further than that or I'll get reported but don't try that shit man, Ain't no one here got a agenda against dragon ball so don't stir up random shit by insinuating that
Click to expand...
I know that, but also other verses use the same idea, why don't we just use it as script inconsistency? It's okay, bro! I'm aware of how things are lol
 
Dalesean027 said:
That speed is quite literally less of a difference than an entire level of infinity separating them so that's not good at all as an example
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1. Why would Infinite speed be a contradiction to Whis? Just a question out of curiosity. He has feats of crossing infinite distances and he never fought in the ToP (heck all he did was sit in the peanut gallery) so the entire ToP time limits contradiction does not apply to him now would it?
2. DB characters can naturally have Combat Speed faster than travel speed so I’m not sure why having Infinite Combat speed would default mean they have infinite travel speed as well.
3. What about a possibly Infinite speed for Combat speed. It’s not like the evidence isn’t there. It is there and present and blatant but it’s just contradictory to the ToP which again may or may not be a huge PIS given the Time Limit to begin with was done to place emphasis on stakes which I’m surprised how a time limit can even exist in a place that is said to have no time.
 
I've only commented that the Infinite Speed isn't going to get applied for the DBS manga. It makes no sense and is unsupported.

I don't really know enough to comment on the particulars of the DBS anime; I'll let DDM handle that.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Just a question, why do we consider other verses if this happens to us? Do they also take time to travel such a location and are several characters able to see them reaching these speeds? Why does this happen every time when it's with DB?
Click to expand...
That's not it.

As popular as loved as Marvel comics, it took time for them to 2-C Heralds. And they might still be a downgrade from 2-C
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I disagree with that. Considering DBS only has 1 true instance of infinite speed, and even the top characters contradict this with an entire arc rendering null and void, it's simply not even possible.
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1. Goku and Beerus eclipsing the Macrocosm
2. Angels like Whis and Vados can travel across Macrocosms that are infinite in size
3. Kefla stating she could blow away an entire Universe in one shot

That’s 3 unless I’m missing smth
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I know that, but also other verses use the same idea, why don't we just use it as script inconsistency? It's okay, bro! I'm aware of how things are lol
Click to expand...
What other verses bro? You can't say that and not give any examples because idk the "other verses" you're talking about the only verse who ik who's had experiences remotely similar to db an several levels was Sonic and best believe we handled all that downplay and went through the half 2-C stuff together for years (sonic and db were the only two verses who had that half 2-C in place)
 
Ss3micah said:
1. Goku and Beerus eclipsing the Macrocosm
2. Angels like Whis and Vados can travel across Macrocosms that are infinite in size
3. Kefla stating she could blow away an entire Universe in one shot

That’s 3 unless I’m missing smth
Click to expand...
I fear Champa and Beerus' feat that would destroy both Universes, it would be the 4th proof of that.
 
Ss3micah said:
1. Goku and Beerus eclipsing the Macrocosm
2. Angels like Whis and Vados can travel across Macrocosms that are infinite in size
3. Kefla stating she could blow away an entire Universe in one shot

That’s 3 unless I’m missing smth
Click to expand...
The angels use an ability, being their Warp. Accepted in another thread to be dimensional travel. It does not scale to anyone but themselves.
 
I'll be the first to say though infinite speed was not the point of this thread to begin with and it was kinda just tacked on but given time and its own well constructed blog and if we get more supporting feats then I'd for sure be inclined to agree but for me personally and I'm not knocking anyone for it, just for me personally I don't see DB being infinite speed right now but in time I believe it could present more consistent supporting feats for it
 
Dalesean027 said:
What other verses bro? You can't say that and not give any examples because idk the "other verses" you're talking about the only verse who ik who's had experiences remotely similar to db an several levels was Sonic and best believe we handled all that downplay and went through the half 2-C stuff together for years (sonic and db were the only two verses who had that half 2-C in place)
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SS, we also have several others, but anyway we won't get in the way here lol
 
I only agree with 2-C, but hard disagree with infinite speed at this time. It shouldn't have even been attempted in this thread and should be dropped until the 2-C stuff was applied. This is just going to make this thread needlessly longer.
 
Deagonx said:
I see LordGriffin's switch to agree now. I definitely disagree with it given the various "expanding" scans but it is what it is.
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For reference, the comment: Here
I guess you can switch me to the agreeing side for right now. I was neutral because I was waiting for some solid counter points but until those show up I don't have any major issues at this time.
Click to expand...
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I only agree with 2-C, but hard disagree with infinite speed at this time. It shouldn't have even been attempted in this thread and should be dropped until the 2-C stuff was applied. This is just going to make this thread needlessly longer.
Click to expand...
In regards to "counter-points" to an infinite universe, I felt like the scans that described the universe as "expanding" were pretty solid counter-evidence to the notion of it actually being infinite. What are your thoughts on that?
 
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