Magic the Gathering: It's 1-A Time

[Georredannea15]

It's about the amount of said dimension though.

I don't see how this is relevant.

Dimensions' amount is of course important. But, if there is no direct reference to the spatial dimension in the statement, it should be known that there is a qualitative superiority between these dimensions. Otherwise it won't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll return to this soon.

"soon"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Anyhow, I'll give this a more thorough look later. Just stopping by to clarify this.

"later"

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Bump

 

[Gonzalo]

bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Baseline World: Each world has its own dimensionality, with multiple statements of it being infinitely beyond places which are inferior about dimensionality, with said amount of dimensions being basically countless (1-B)

I'm not 100% on this.

She would have screamed if she could have found her voice—if she could have identified the place within her being that a voice was supposed to come from. But she couldn't find her lips, nor her lungs, nor any other part of her body. All she knew were the multitudinous dimensions. They were no longer phantom, no longer variables in an equation. They were real. And there were so many.

Multitudinous just means "A lot". But "a lot" isn't a definable measurement. I feel like 1-C, likely 1-B would work better here

• Powestones: Geometrically perfect objects, that contain within them, unreachable infinite spaces. This infinite space can contain entire dimensional realities and worlds, and those worlds can be further nested into one another (1-B)

So I looked into this

In this model, the physical and temporal dimensions of reality are warped by energetic bombardment. When reality becomes deeply convoluted, it traps energy so that it travels in circles instead of straight lines. Thus, the warping of reality by energy slows and solidifies that same energy. Eventually, energy and dimensional reality are compacted enough to form matter. Conversely, to change matter back into energy—as happens in the charging of powerstones—is to unfold the dimensions of reality, to create space. The charging of power stones unleashes vast stores of energy by unfolding vast tracts of space. Originally, Glacian believed the introduction of any matter into that space would only cause it to collapse again. Now he knew that any new matter introduced. would bring its own compacted space with it. Therefore, a large powerstone contains a huge empty space into which items and persons could be introduced. Whole new worlds could be created inside powerstones.

“I know an architect for those new worlds.”

Glacian had even mapped the organizational principles of spaces within various stones. If a stone is spherical, the space within would be organized in concentric spheres—nested stacks of matter with the locus of energy at the precise center. Elaborate sketches showed the sort of nested spheres that could be built within even a small powerstone. They would be floating neighborhoods in which hundreds of people could live in bright beauty and safety. Rebbec could build another whole city within the powerstones of her temple. At last, those who ascended need never descend again.

Only one task remained—to discover a pathway into those vast spaces. Glacian had been working that insoluble problem for the last month. Thrice he had almost taken his discovery to Rebbec, but he wanted the revelation to be complete.

“—energy warps space and time, so drawing it off would flatten it, provide a momentary pathway past crystalline matter…no, the resultant explosion would destroy crystal and traveler and world, all—” Glacian muttered, wrinkling the much-marked sheet before him. He held it up in a shaking fist. “—How to get into that crumple of space and mass? How to open the gateway? How to win back the city from Yawgmoth? How to win back Rebbec…?”

A big power stone is needed to contain a space, it's just that a power stone of large enough size can contain a power stone that's not large enough to disrupt the energy chain. The example given in the text has a power stone only able to hold a city, a temple, or a neighborhood of a few hundred people.

You would need to provide an example of a giant power stone containing a entire world that also contains a power stone that contains a smaller world.

At the moment this passage is only saying a stone can hold another stone. Not that every stone holds a world that holds a smaller stone which in turn holds a world.

As before, 1-C, likely 1-B would work better here imo

• Planes: Worlds that are infinite in size, separated by walls of reality, and that have their own dimensionality. They are capable of having impossible angles, spaces extending into infinity through fractal mathematics, and extra-planar geometry, such as Niz-Mizzet's Seven-Dimensional Geometry. (1-B)

I'm fine with this.

• Multiverse: A collection of planes is described as a jumble of infinities, while the Multiverse is an infinite array. As such the Multiverse is described as being a greater infinity, with planes being infinite fractions of this infinity. (1-B)

I'm fine with this

• Blind Eternity: It exists beyond space and time, having no concepts of distance, is all-encompassing, can't be filled, and views the multiverse as a dream and illusion (1-A)

Alright I guess makes the inevitable D&D to MtG scaling easier

• Time Streams: There are infinite time streams, always splitting and branching, with each one having its own multiverse. (Infinite 1-A structures)

To me this isn't Infinite 1-A structures as much as time works on a multiversal level and you're capable of using the Time Streams to go to alternate times within the multiverse. At most it may warrant a High 1-B or Low 1-A rating.

To add, these per your own blog cannot contain the Blind Eternity which is 1-A. Since if the Blind Eternity is 1-A due to "existing beyond space and time" then, well, there's no way a Time Stream can hold them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

To me this isn't Infinite 1-A structures as much as time works on a multiversal level and you're capable of using the Time Streams to go to alternate times within the multiverse. At most it may warrant a High 1-B or Low 1-A rating.

To add, these per your own blog cannot contain the Blind Eternity which is 1-A. Since if the Blind Eternity is 1-A due to "existing beyond space and time" then, well, there's no way a Time Stream can hold them.

1-A space-time can perfectly exist though. Just like 1-A is not exactly truly beyond dimensionality but simply Aleph-2 amount of dimensions, 1-A time can perfectly be a thing too.

 

[Qawsedf234]

1-A space-time can perfectly exist though

The issue isn't the concept of 1-A space, but the idea that the Blind Eternity is outside of space and time, with the main multiverse being something akin to imagination which is why it should be 1-A.

That justification cannot work with the claim that Time Streams contains Blind Eternity. You can't have both without one justification being wrong.

Even then the Blind Eternity might not even be 1-A. To my knowledge one of the major arcs was a multiverse invasion that just involved drilling through the space to get to other planes.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not sold on the ideas of infinite levels of infinity for this cosmology at all yet, so my personal assessment here stops at 1-B.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

To me this isn't Infinite 1-A structures as much as time works on a multiversal level and you're capable of using the Time Streams to go to alternate times within the multiverse. At most it may warrant a High 1-B or Low 1-A rating.

To add, these per your own blog cannot contain the Blind Eternity which is 1-A. Since if the Blind Eternity is 1-A due to "existing beyond space and time" then, well, there's no way a Time Stream can hold them.

This was because of a disagreement in whether the Blind Eternities is apart of the Multiverse or not, but what you've said makes sense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This was because of a disagreement in whether the Blind Eternities is apart of the Multiverse or not, but what you've said makes sense.

It depends on how that "1-A through transcending dimensions themselves" thread ends tbh.

A big power stone is needed to contain a space, it's just that a power stone of large enough size can contain a power stone that's not large enough to disrupt the energy chain. The example given in the text has a power stone only able to hold a city, a temple, or a neighborhood of a few hundred people.

You would need to provide an example of a giant power stone containing a entire world that also contains a power stone that contains a smaller world.

At the moment this passage is only saying a stone can hold another stone. Not that every stone holds a world that holds a smaller stone which in turn holds a world.

As before, 1-C, likely 1-B would work better here imo

Issue here it's that multitudinous does not exactly contradict 1-B, as the character who made that statement is a researcher about cosmology if what @ActuallySpaceMan42 said is correct.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Issue here it's that multitudinous does not exactly contradict 1-B

I didn't say it did,. It's just that multitudinous is a fancy was of saying "multitude" or "many". It can be 1-B but it's not like "There's thousands of dimensions" where it gives a number to work off of. Which is why I was using "1-C, likely 1-B". Since it's at least 1-C (especially with the 7D quote) but likely to be over 13+ dimensions.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I didn't say it did,. It's just that multitudinous is a fancy was of saying "multitude" or "many". It can be 1-B but it's not like "There's thousands of dimensions" where it gives a number to work off of. Which is why I was using "1-C, likely 1-B". Since it's at least 1-C (especially with the 7D quote) but likely to be over 13+ dimensions.

Issue here is that it'd be 1-B regardless, because it would be above more than 8-D no matter how you look at it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Issue here is that it'd be 1-B regardless, because it would be above more than 8-D no matter how you look at it.

8D and 9D are still 1-C. Which is why it's at least that.

1-C: Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to three to five higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 7 and 9-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 7 to R ^ 9)

High 1-C: High Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to six to seven higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 10 and 11-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 10 to R ^ 11)

1-B: Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up)

 

[StrymULTRA]

8D and 9D are still 1-C. Which is why it's at least that.

...For some reason I remembered that 1-B is from 8D

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I didn't say it did,. It's just that multitudinous is a fancy was of saying "multitude" or "many". It can be 1-B but it's not like "There's thousands of dimensions" where it gives a number to work off of. Which is why I was using "1-C, likely 1-B". Since it's at least 1-C (especially with the 7D quote) but likely to be over 13+ dimensions.

1-B comes from this statement, not the multitudinous statement

More than she could count, more than she could ever know.

 

[Qawsedf234]

1-B comes from this statement, not the multitudinous statement

That's not a 1-B justification in my view

"Now to bring you through." She guided the insubstantial projection, winding it through the phantom dimensional scaffolding in the modular core, pulling it toward the anchor that represented the inception location. Once she connected the inception point with this target location, the transporter would be capable of moving Bhavin's automaton across the Inquirium. In truth, it was much less about actually moving anything and more about collapsing the spatial dimensions to make the two locations coexist. What a thrilling prospect!

Rashmi was gripped with emotion; this place, these places, she had always known they were out here. Throughout her years of experimentation with matter transport, she had felt them, dangling just beyond her reach. She had believed even though she had not had any evidence to support her theories. And now here she was. Something swelled deep inside, something that made her feel both more alive and more fragile than she had ever felt. It brought with it the sensation of tears, though she had no capacity to shed them.

The Phantom Dimensions are overlapping realties that can be made solid and manifest with the right science. From what I got she's not seeing the world but with more dimensions, viewing how the Phantom Dimensions overlap and effect the main dimension she's on.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Someone wanna ping ultima and mori?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The Phantom Dimensions are overlapping realties that can be made solid and manifest with the right science. From what I got she's not seeing the world but with more dimensions, viewing how the Phantom Dimensions overlap and effect the main dimension she's on.

Phantom Dimensions are real, they were always real, it's clarified as such.

They were no longer phantom, no longer variables in an equation. They were real. And there were so many.

Laughing at her. But why? "Oh, how amusing it is to see the way small minds work when confronted with things so much larger than they were meant to comprehend."

When working on her transporter, she stated she needed to upgrade it in order to deal with increased spatial, dimensionality. So, yes while she did see realities, she also saw dimensions, since the phantom dimensional scaffolding utilizes multidimensional space.

Calculations were streaming through Rashmi's mind. "We'll need more aether. At least twice as much to accommodate for the increased spatial dimensionality."

Fingers extended, Rashmi reached into the multidimensional aether projection within the modular core, feeling out the scaffolding, a one-to-one representation of the aether patterns of the Great Conduit.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Phantom Dimensions are real, they were always real, it's clarified as such.

I didn't say they weren't real. I said that they're overlapping realities, which isn't the same as seeing the same object from a higher dimensional viewpoint.

When working on her transporter, she stated she needed to upgrade it in order to deal with increased spatial, dimensionality. So, yes while she did see realities, she also saw dimensions, since the phantom dimensional scaffolding utilizes multidimensional space.

Which I'm not denying. What I'm saying is that the to see the Phantom Realities you just need to see in a higher dimensional perspective to the point where they overlap the base world.

A 2-Dimensional being is unable to see other 2-Dimensional places that are displaced from it's axis. But give that thing 3-Dimensional sight and it could see an infinite amount of 2-D planes. But that wouldn't make the 3D sight 1-B, but high enough to see other spaces.

The overall world is higher dimensional, I just don't think there's enough solid statements to give it a infinite 1-B rating.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I didn't say they weren't real. I said that they're overlapping realities, which isn't the same as seeing the same object from a higher dimensional viewpoint.

Which I'm not denying. What I'm saying is that the to see the Phantom Realities you just need to see in a higher dimensional perspective to the point where they overlap the base world.

A 2-Dimensional being is unable to see other 2-Dimensional places that are displaced from it's axis. But give that thing 3-Dimensional sight and it could see an infinite amount of 2-D planes. But that wouldn't make the 3D sight 1-B, but high enough to see other spaces.

The overall world is higher dimensional, I just don't think there's enough solid statements to give it a infinite 1-B rating.

Ah, I see your meaning, which is why you said it could be likely at most.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides, even if 1-A gets rejected, I think the cosmology would still be High 1-B at bare minimum, given that the Blind Eternities still can't be filled.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah, I see your meaning, which is why you said it could be likely at most.

Yeah. I think it's valid as a likely rating, I just don't know if it warrants a base rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah. I think it's valid as a likely rating, I just don't know if it warrants a base rating.

Tbh it wouldn't really matter, given the Blind Eternities and Timestreams are what matter the most here.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

MTG cosmology is already confusing as it is.

I'm fine with possibly.

 

[StrymULTRA]

MTG cosmology is already confusing as it is.

I'm fine with possibly.

Possibly what tho???

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Possibly what tho???

1-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

1-A

Oh.

So 1-B, likely 1-A then?

A bit weird though, I'd prefer a straight up rating for stuff like this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Bump

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

So 1-B, likely 1-A then?

Ya

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl but I think it should be straight up 1-A, giving that higher infinities stacking on each other are definitely a thing with planes transcending Powerstones etc.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Ngl but I think it should be straight up 1-A, giving that higher infinities stacking on each other are definitely a thing with planes transcending Powerstones etc.

That can change depending on the staff thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That can change depending on the staff thread.

Then let's wait that 1st.

If it goes through, then is 1-B, if not is 1-A.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bump

 

[Elizhaa]

1-B, likely 1-A seems fine, from Qawsedf234's points.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't the 1-A CRT be completed 1st?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Given the 1-A thing has apparentely completed (I think), bump?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Given the 1-A thing has apparentely completed (I think), bump?

DT is procrastinating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

DT is procrastinating.

I guess... But I think that 1-A should still be given as a full rating, because:

1. Having not a scaling but a whole cosmology be "likely" 1-A just stinks, given the whole gap between it and everything behind it.
2. The verse has clear statements about layered dimensions, so in conjunction with the "it can never be filled" thing it should be 1-A.