Magic the Gathering: It's 1-A Time

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Where does that come from? The tiering system page doesn't say that. 1-B is up to "eight to any finite amount."

https://vsbattles.com/threads/countless.153385/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/question-about-countless-in-tiering.128546/

 

[StrymULTRA]

Where does that come from? The tiering system page doesn't say that. 1-B is up to "eight to any finite amount."

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up)

And countless is finite lol.

 

[Deagonx]

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up)

And countless is finite lol.

Okay, I mean I would've granted more than 8 simply for it being said to be "many" but I don't agree that the statement made could be extrapolated to some extremely high number.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, I mean I would've granted more than 8 simply for it being said to be "many" but I don't agree that the statement made could be extrapolated to some extremely high number.

Issue it's that 2-B is given for "countless" amount of universes.

It's how stuff works here. If countless universes are 2-B, then countless dimensions are 1-B too in a similar logic.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Okay, I mean I would've granted more than 8 simply for it being said to be "many" but I don't agree that the statement made could be extrapolated to some extremely high number.

Idk why we treat it that way, but Anyway, it was stated she was looking at all the dimensions for some time, but she doesn't know how long.

All she knew were the multitudinous dimensions. They were no longer phantom, no longer variables in an equation. They were real. And there were so many.

Rashmi felt so small, and yet her essence had the sensation of enormity.

She must have hung there, suspended, overwhelmed by awe and wonder, for some length of time, but how long, she had no conception. Time was not.

 

[Deagonx]

It's how stuff works here. If countless universes are 2-B, then countless dimensions are 1-B too in a similar logic.

Okay. For my part, I can potentially see 1-B, but not anything higher than that for the Blind Eternity.

@Ultima_Reality Is it generally the case that we require proof that spatial dimensions have QS before tiering a verse higher for having more of them? Or is it the default assumption.

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Ultima_Reality Is it generally the case that we require proof that spatial dimensions have QS before tiering a verse higher for having more of them? Or is it the default assumption.

Iirc is the default assumption given that dimensionality in itself does not affect you anymore.

But said dimensions are indeed superior given the whole higher infinity stuff.

 

[Deagonx]

But said dimensions are indeed superior given the whole higher infinity stuff.

I see the cases of higher infinities, but it is not clear to me that the basis for them is increased spatial dimensionality.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I see the cases of higher infinities, but it is not clear to me that the basis for them is increased spatial dimensionality.

Honestly, I think that them being described as infinite should be enough, given that those dimensions inside the multiverse are even described as an "infinite fraction of a greater infinity", with the powerstones even working similairly to branes given that they contain worlds within worlds.

TTGL is accepted as fully High 1-C right because of a similar logic after all, and higher dimensions are accepted generally as superior as long as they're infinite in size.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Okay. For my part, I can potentially see 1-B, but not anything higher than that for the Blind Eternity.

Well, I wasn't done, just wanted to clarify the dimensions stuff, now we can talk about Powerstones.

"There's just one catch," Yawgmoth said with a gentle laugh.

"There's no way to get into or out of one of these planes - infinite spaces that can never be reached."

Even a fragment of a powerstone contains within it not just energy, but space-vast dimensions trapped in fragile crystal.

So, Powerstones have infinite spaces inside of them, one's that can't be reached from both the inside or the outside. And this is supported by the fact even a fragment of one of them contains space and entire dimensions.

Glacian had even mapped the organizational principles of spaces within various stones. If a stone is spherical, the space within would be organized in concentric spheres - nested stacks of matter with the locus of energy at the precise center. Elaborate sketches showed the sort of nested spheres that could be built within even a small powerstone.

This matters because it's been stated that the space inside of a Powestone can be organized into concentric spheres, nested spheres, and nested stacks of matter, within even a small Powerstone.

Now he knew that any matter introduced would bring its own compacted space with it. Therefore, a large powerstone contains a huge empty space into which items and persons could be introduced. Whole new worlds could be created inside powerstones.

In this model, the physical and temporal dimensions of reality are warped by energetic bombardment. When reality becomes deeply convoluted, it traps energy so that it travels in circles instead of straight line. Thus, the warping of reality by energy slows and solidifies that same energy. Eventually, energy and dimensional reality are compacted enough to form matter.

And it has further been stated that matter brings with it its own space and create a world. This is literal, since dimensional reality, which refers to physical and temporal dimensions is what needs to be compacted to create matter in the first place.

So yes, in a single Powerstone there can contain a World with Countless Dimensions, inside a World with Countless Dimensions, and so on and so forth.

 

[Deagonx]

So, Powerstones have infinite spaces inside of them, one's that can't be reached from both the inside or the outside. And this is supported by the fact even a fragment of one of them contains space and entire dimensions.
This matters because it's been stated that the space inside of a Powestone can be organized into concentric spheres, nested spheres, and nested stacks of matter, within even a small Powerstone.

I'm fine with Powerstones containing infinite spaces, but a small object containing an infinite space is pretty common in fiction and doesn't generally speaking have serious implications for the cosmology. Like, destroying a power stone isn't automatically tantamount to destroying an infinite sized universe, as it depends on how the verse treats it. The verse could very feasibly treat powerstones as fragile objects. Not saying that's true for MTG, just establishing that it isn't a guarantee.

And it has further been stated that matter brings with it its own space and create a world. This is literal, since dimensional reality, which refers to physical and temporal dimensions is what needs to be compacted to create matter in the first place.

So yes, in a single Powerstone there can contain a World with Countless Dimensions, inside a World with Countless Dimensions, and so on and so forth.

I don't agree with them having "countless" dimensions, just many. But it doesn't appear to be the case that these nested worlds are qualitatively superior to the ones below them.

Honestly, I think that them being described as infinite should be enough, given that those dimensions inside the multiverse are even described as an "infinite fraction of a greater infinity", with the powerstones even working similairly to branes given that they contain worlds within worlds.

That was about planes though, not powerstones.

TTGL is accepted as fully High 1-C right because of a similar logic after all

I don't know anything about TTGL, I am not sure what the acronym stands for, but saying "this verse was accepted based on similar logic" isn't a valid argument. If the argument is wrong, it's wrong for TTGL too.

and higher dimensions are accepted generally as superior as long as they're infinite in size.

They shouldn't be, if they aren't established as having qualitatively superiority. Having infinite size doesn't really mean anything for that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't know anything about TTGL, I am not sure what the acronym stands for, but saying "this verse was accepted based on similar logic" isn't a valid argument. If the argument is wrong, it's wrong for TTGL too.
They shouldn't be, if they aren't established as having qualitatively superiority. Having infinite size doesn't really mean anything for that.

Then you're arguing against the standards themselves dude.

 

[Deagonx]

Then you're arguing against the standards themselves dude.

Can you link the wiki page that asserts that standard? Many users tend to say "this is wiki standard" when it actually isn't, or when it's just some kind of pseudo-standard along the lines of "people generally agree with this and this tends to get enacted in CRTs" rather than an actual official standard.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't agree with them having "countless" dimensions, just many. But it doesn't appear to be the case that these nested worlds are qualitatively superior to the ones below them.

Either way, an infinitely large world, containing an infinitely large world, recursively has been High 1-B for a while. I can link you to the threads that state that if you want.

 

[Deagonx]

Either way, an infinitely large world, containing an infinitely large world, recursively has been High 1-B for a while. I can link you to the threads that state that if you want.

Are they stated by admins or in an official wiki page? Because the last thread you linked was just a QnA thread by an FC/OC Content Mod that had no input from VSBW staff.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Are they stated by admins or in an official wiki page? Because the last thread you linked was just a QnA thread by an FC/OC Content Mod that had no input from VSBW staff.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-b-and-countless-revision.145054/#post-5240908

https://vsbattles.com/members/elizhaa.2060/page-4#profile-post-38458

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I think it makes sense but I'm also not a tier guru. So I'll just say I agree since it makes sense to me but I'm open to being convinced.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also because "worlds within worlds" is already grounds for qualitative superior, given the lower worlds are literally encompassed within the higher ones like layers in a hierarchy, I dunno how more blatant it can get.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Are they stated by admins

I believe DDM describes it pretty well here

edit: (in regards to the countless thing that is)

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

It's not even complete though? I believed that those verses would be Low 1-A instead if that CRT gets even accepted.

DT is cruel and so am I.

They will be downgraded to the number of dimensions shown in the verse.

 

[Deagonx]

Also because "worlds within worlds" is already grounds for qualitative superior, given the lower worlds are literally encompassed within the higher ones like layers in a hierarchy, I dunno how more blatant it can get.

It very much depends on the nature of that containment. If I have a marble which contains a world, am I qualitatively superior to the marble? I might be able to destroy the marble, but in my world it could be as easy as destroying any other marble. So I could destroy it even though I'm a normal person.

What if, once I'm inside the marble myself, suddenly I'm no different from any other person? That wouldn't be qualitative superiority.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It very much depends on the nature of that containment. If I have a marble which contains a world, am I qualitatively superior to the marble? I might be able to destroy the marble, but in my world it could be as easy as destroying any other marble. So I could destroy it even though I'm a normal person.

What if, once I'm inside the marble myself, suddenly I'm no different from any other person? That wouldn't be qualitative superiority.

Iirc they've made weapons out of Powerstones that directly channel the energy of the space within them, and Oldwalkers have survived being stabbed by them

 

[Deagonx]

To me that indicates that there isn't QS between them, not that there is. If the realm that contains them has QS to the power within, it shouldn't be an effective weapon at all.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Shrug

Like i said i dont know how we got here, im just along for the ride lol

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Lowkey wondering if Quandrix magic would be worth bringing up here, seeing as their entire thing is pulling Aether from the Blind Eternities to manipulate fractal spatial dimensions an metaphysical laws

 

[StrymULTRA]

DT is cruel and so am I.

They will be downgraded to the number of dimensions shown in the verse.

In the end we decided to settle for a compromise of 1-A, in cases where we can know that the transcendental space or whatever is above even dimensions existing purely theoretically, and not just the dimensions physically existent in the verse. But on the whole, lacking dimensions and etc doesn't net you much, no.

Anyhow, I'll give this a more thorough look later. Just stopping by to clarify this.

Just ******* decide.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It very much depends on the nature of that containment. If I have a marble which contains a world, am I qualitatively superior to the marble? I might be able to destroy the marble, but in my world it could be as easy as destroying any other marble. So I could destroy it even though I'm a normal person.

What if, once I'm inside the marble myself, suddenly I'm no different from any other person? That wouldn't be qualitative superiority.

Not many people can just, destroy a Powerstone. Geometrically they are perfect, they don't fail. More importantly, if the full power of an object that can contain recursively embedded worlds hurts you, then you simply scale to the recursively embedded worlds. IDK about you, but I couldn't handle getting hit with a High 1-B amount of energy and live to tell the tale without scaling to it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not many people can just, destroy a Powerstone. Geometrically they are perfect, they don't fail. More importantly, if the full power of an object that can contain recursively embedded worlds hurts you, then you simply scale to the recursively embedded worlds. IDK about you, but I couldn't handle getting hit with a High 1-B amount of energy and live to tell the tale without scaling to it.

Kinda this. Surviving an higher dimensional attack means you scale, not the opposite.

This is not Gravity Falls where 11D beings die from a 3D crash on Earth.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Just ******* decide.

Mofo doesn't even come to the thread.

Come on DT.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Yes, and as for why beings who scale to the Infinitely Sized Planes and the Countless Dimensions the Power stones are contained in, don't scale beyond sed power stones is simple.

The True Form of Oldwalkers is their infinite mind, the universe itself, and the bodies they fight with and people see are just avatars that channel their power.

This is stated in the Physiology Blog.

 

[Robo432343]

bro its so weird if something is stated to be beyond dimensions (qs wise) and then just ends up being +1 dimension up

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mofo doesn't even come to the thread.

Come on DT.

My plan is pretty simple: until that CRT is applied, MtG will become 1-A just like the rest.

Then you can downgrade it after it was applied.

Maybe you can add it as verse example in that CRT lol

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Maybe you can add it as verse example in that CRT lol

Bet

 

[StrymULTRA]

But yeah, the thing about the dimensions not being superior seems to be just a very annoying nitpick, especially when we have higher infinities described very well in the context of said dimensions.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

OP derailing his own thread with rakih

I do agree a recursive of infinite sized world inside another infinite-sized world would qualify for fully sized if they contained the other infinite sized world

 

[PrinceofPein]

I already said previously there is no statement or scan for infinitely recursive world in the verse, it is just trying to make something simple and turn it into something complicated as far as I see it

 

[StrymULTRA]

I already said previously there is no statement or scan for infinitely recursive world in the verse, it is just trying to make something simple and turn it into something complicated as far as I see it

Why would it matter here?

 

[Moritzva]

I'll return to this soon.

 

[Georredannea15]

Issue it's that 2-B is given for "countless" amount of universes.

It's how stuff works here. If countless universes are 2-B, then countless dimensions are 1-B too in a similar logic.

But between these dimensions, it is mandatory to have QS. If it doesn't, countless dimensions become 2-B, just like countless universes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But between these dimensions, it is mandatory to have QS. If it doesn't, countless dimensions become 2-B, just like countless universes.

It's about the amount of said dimension though.

I don't see how this is relevant.