Magic the Gathering: It's 1-A Time

[StrymULTRA]

This is a continuation of this thread made from @ActuallySpaceMan42 (so if you have doubts ask to him).

Basically everything is in this blog, which in short will be explained here:

• Baseline World: Each world has its own dimensionality, with multiple statements of it being infinitely beyond places which are inferior about dimensionality, with said amount of dimensions being basically countless (1-B)
• Powestones: Geometrically perfect objects, that contain within them, unreachable infinite spaces. This infinite space can contain entire dimensional realities and worlds, and those worlds can be further nested into one another (1-B)
• Planes: Worlds that are infinite in size, separated by walls of reality, and that have their own dimensionality. They are capable of having impossible angles, spaces extending into infinity through fractal mathematics, and extra-planar geometry, such as Niz-Mizzet's Seven-Dimensional Geometry. (1-B)
• Multiverse: A collection of planes is described as a jumble of infinities, while the Multiverse is an infinite array. As such the Multiverse is described as being a greater infinity, with planes being infinite fractions of this infinity. (1-B)
• Blind Eternity: It exists beyond space and time, having no concepts of distance, is all-encompassing, can't be filled, and views the multiverse as a dream and illusion (1-A)
• Time Streams: There are infinite time streams, always splitting and branching, with each one having its own multiverse. (Infinite 1-A structures)

As most of the MTG profiles are outdated, only the following ones will be changed:

• Emrakul
• Kozilek
• Ulamog
• Nicol Bolas
• The Planeswalker

"Eh but isn't this Low 1-A at best?"

I mean that thread still isn't complete yet so it'll be 1-A until that is completed.

Now let's go.

 

[Deagonx]

Reading the blog, I see valid statements for infinite size, and greater infinities, and infinite timelines. What I don't see is any statements of infinite layers of higher infinity, so that is an issue for me. I don't see how we get to 1-B, let alone 1-A.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Infinite layers is not exactly necessary, as the Blind Eternities can't be filled even from stacking dimensionality and is beyond the concept of space.

 

[Deagonx]

Which quote from the blog addresses that?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which quote from the blog addresses that?

These ones.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also can you close this?

This is a continuation of this thread

It was agreed that we'd continue here as previous one was too long.

 

[Deagonx]

Those quotes are sufficient to say they're beyond concepts like direction, but "can't be filled even from stacking dimensionality" seems absent from those quotes and we had a big thing recently about being beyond dimensionality as a concept not being sufficient to extrapolate infinitely beyond what the cosmology has been shown to have.

 

[BoastJr]

following for now

 

[StrymULTRA]

but "can't be filled even from stacking dimensionality" seems absent from those quotes

The thing is that the lesser planes are essentially layers that stack onto each other, such as the Powerstones, with higher realms like the Multiverse holding infinite Powerstones and so on.

What I mean that it can't be filled is that it means that even stacking planes won't be enough to fill it given it's beyond the concepts of space, time and direction entirely.

we had a big thing recently about being beyond dimensionality as a concept not being sufficient to extrapolate infinitely beyond what the cosmology has been shown to have.

That's gonna be just Low 1-A if the thread goes through iirc. But if this is like High 1-B maybe is fine too.

I called Ultima here to clarify my doubts but if he does not come, too bad.

 

[Deagonx]

The thing is that the lesser planes are essentially layers that stack onto each other, such as the Powerstones, with higher realms like the Multiverse holding infinite Powerstones and so on.

It would be more helpful if you references the specific quotes for stuff like this, because I did read the blog, it's fairly short, and I did not get this impression at all.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It would be more helpful if you references the specific quotes for stuff like this, because I did read the blog, it's fairly short, and I did not get this impression at all.

I'm not on the pc rn.

Besides can you ping @ActuallySpaceMan42 and @WeeklyBattles, they're the ones which made the OG thread after all, so if they answer before me it would be better.

 

[Deagonx]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @WeeklyBattles @Ultima_Reality

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It would be more helpful if you references the specific quotes for stuff like this, because I did read the blog, it's fairly short, and I did not get this impression at all.

Powestones are stated to be unreachable infinite spaces, from the inside and out, but can also have their own dimensional realities and worlds (Matter alone creates universes, in MTG). Further more it was stated power stones can contain nested stacks of matter, and concentric circles.

 

[Deagonx]

Sure, but help me translate that information to the claim of infinite layers of higher infinities.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sure, but help me translate that information to the claim of infinite layers of higher infinities.

We never said that they exist.

The Blind Eternities simply are stated that they can't be filled due to them being beyond the concepts of direction, space etc, meaning that even infinite amount of dimensionality can't fill it.

It's more implied than directly stated.

Also can you close this?

It was agreed that we'd continue here as previous one was too long.

Also this, please.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Sure, but help me translate that information to the claim of infinite layers of higher infinities.

The best I can do is paint a picture;

A singular in general is infinite, whether it be geometrically, or through fractal mathematics. And on top of that they are composed of countless, spatial dimensions, more than you can ever know.

And sed world can further exist in another world, which is also infinite and encompasses that last world, having its own countless spatial dimensions.

And then another world would encompass that one, being encompassing it and also being infinite, with again, countless spatial dimensions.

Yet, all of these worlds will always exist within a Powerstone, since it's infinite spaces are unreachable from within.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And sed world can further exist in another world, which is also infinite and encompasses that last world, having its own countless spatial dimensions.

And then another world would encompass that one, being encompassing it and also being infinite, with again, countless spatial dimensions.

You mean that it's not only Countless+1, but Countless+Countless for each?

 

[Deagonx]

The Blind Eternities simply are stated that they can't be filled due to them being beyond the concepts of direction, space etc, meaning that even infinite amount of dimensionality can't fill it.

If this is the primary driving point, then unfortunately this is quite literally contrary to wiki standards. We had a very large Staff Discussion about this recently where it was decided that being conceptually beyond dimensionality does not extrapolate to being beyond any possible conception of dimensionality. So it's not a slingshot to High 1-B or 1-A or anything like that.

A singular in general is infinite, whether it be geometrically, or through fractal mathematics. And on top of that they are composed of countless, spatial dimensions, more than you can ever know.

And sed world can further exist in another world, which is also infinite and encompasses that last world, having its own countless spatial dimensions.

And then another world would encompass that one, being encompassing it and also being infinite, with again, countless spatial dimensions.

Yet, all of these worlds will always exist within a Powerstone, since it's infinite spaces are unreachable from within.

I hate to be a broken record, but again, I read the blog post and didn't get this impression. So we will need to more concretely discuss the evidence for these claims you are making. Particularly regarding the claim of infinite spatial dimensions and the one about worlds encompassed by other worlds which are encompassed... etc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If this is the primary driving point, then unfortunately this is quite literally contrary to wiki standards. We had a very large Staff Discussion about this recently where it was decided that being conceptually beyond dimensionality does not extrapolate to being beyond any possible conception of dimensionality. So it's not a slingshot to High 1-B or 1-A or anything like that.

It's not even complete though? I believed that those verses would be Low 1-A instead if that CRT gets even accepted.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I hate to be a broken record, but again, I read the blog post and didn't get this impression. So we will need to more concretely discuss the evidence for these claims you are making. Particularly regarding the claim of infinite spatial dimensions and the one about worlds encompassed by other worlds which are encompassed... etc.

Sure, I have no issues doing that, but I'll split it into parts, starting with dimensionality;

"What you're working with here is nonlinear transport, but you've been thinking in terms of linear laws this whole time. Consider this for a moment. In a multidimensional space, what happens to the friction?"

Calculations were streaming through Rashmi's mind. "We'll need more aether. At least twice as much to accommodate for the increased spatial dimensionality."

Fingers extended, Rashmi reached into the multidimensional aether projection within the modular core, feeling out the scaffolding, a one-to-one representation of the aether patterns of the Great Conduit.

"Now to bring you through." She guided the insubstantial projection, winding it through the phantom dimensional scaffolding in the modular core, pulling it toward the anchor that represented the inception location.

Starting off, Rashmi is making a nonlinear transporter that moves things through multidimensional space. It is clarified that this is referring to spatial dimensionality and that phantom dimensions are just a way they refer to the dimensions they are viewing in their projection of the actual multidimensional space.

She would have screamed if she could have found her voice—if she could have identified the place within her being that a voice was supposed to come from. But she couldn't find her lips, nor her lungs, nor any other part of her body. All she knew were the multitudinous dimensions. They were no longer phantom, no longer variables in an equation. They were real. And there were so many.

Rashmi felt so small, and yet her essence had the sensation of enormity.

The images—impressions really—were coming faster now. One blended into the next, quiet hearths, vast deserts, bustling marketplaces filled with unfamiliar people and wares, the maw of a beast, a star-filled sky. More than she could count, more than she could ever know.

However through an incident with her transporter, she learns that these dimensions which seemed fake to her, were real, and there are so many it takes her feel small. More than she could count, and more than she could ever know.

"Kozilek can influence time and space, Tazri. This is true. This is its purpose. But time and space are merely two dimensions in all the panoply of what is."

Furthermore, it is stated that both time and space, are merely two dimensions in comparison to everything there is.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's not even complete though? I believed that those verses would be Low 1-A instead if that CRT gets even accepted.

In the end we decided to settle for a compromise of 1-A, in cases where we can know that the transcendental space or whatever is above even dimensions existing purely theoretically, and not just the dimensions physically existent in the verse. But on the whole, lacking dimensions and etc doesn't net you much, no.

Anyhow, I'll give this a more thorough look later. Just stopping by to clarify this.

 

[Deagonx]

Starting off, Rashmi is making a nonlinear transporter that moves things through multidimensional space. It is clarified that this is referring to spatial dimensionality and that phantom dimensions are just a way they refer to the dimensions they are viewing in their projection of the actual multidimensional space.

Sure, I'm tracking that this is about spatial dimensionality so far.

However through an incident with her transporter, she learns that these dimensions which seemed fake to her, were real, and there are so many it takes her feel small. More than she could count, and more than she could ever know.

All it says is that there were many. The statement about more than she could count appears to refer to images of scenery, not spatial dimensions.

Furthermore, it is stated that both time and space, are merely two dimensions in comparison to everything there is.

That fairly clearly isn't referring to spatial dimensions and probably just means "aspects."

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

All it says is that there were many. The statement about more than she could count appears to refer to images of scenery, not spatial dimensions.

She was seeing all the different phantom dimensions as flashing images. They're talking about the same thing.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

And before you ask, why would spatial dimensions look like random scenery, it's just how the MTG Universe works. Even in basic planes, impossible angles, and seventh-dimensional geometry can be shown through even the most basic things, such as maps and walls, and the like.

 

[StrymULTRA]

In the end we decided to settle for a compromise of 1-A, in cases where we can know that the transcendental space or whatever is above even dimensions existing purely theoretically, and not just the dimensions physically existent in the verse. But on the whole, lacking dimensions and etc doesn't net you much, no.

Anyhow, I'll give this a more thorough look later. Just stopping by to clarify this.

The argument was never lacking dimensionality, that's pretty much true.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Following

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Um yeah I agree with the 1-B stuff. Higher is where you lost me ngl

 

[StrymULTRA]

Um yeah I agree with the 1-B stuff. Higher is where you lost me ngl

The thing is that the lesser planes are essentially layers that stack onto each other, such as the Powerstones, with higher realms like the Multiverse holding infinite Powerstones and so on.

What I mean that it can't be filled is that it means that even stacking planes won't be enough to fill it given it's beyond the concepts of space, time and direction entirely.

This in short.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm not on the pc rn.

Besides can you ping @ActuallySpaceMan42 and @WeeklyBattles, they're the ones which made the OG thread after all, so if they answer before me it would be better.

Imma be real with ya man I dont even know how we got here lmao

 

[Deagonx]

She was seeing all the different phantom dimensions as flashing images. They're talking about the same thing.

It seems more like she's seeing the different worlds, but in the context "more than she can count" wouldn't mean infinite or uncountable, since we're talking about what is appearing in her vision it appears to just literally mean more than she can count in front of her in the moment (whereas if she saw three images, she would very easily realize it was 3) so I am not comfortable agreeing to it being more than a simple "many" but not infinite or millions or something like that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It seems more like she's seeing the different worlds, but in the context "more than she can count" wouldn't mean infinite or uncountable, since we're talking about what is appearing in her vision it appears to just literally mean more than she can count in front of her in the moment (whereas if she saw three images, she would very easily realize it was 3) so I am not comfortable agreeing to it being more than a simple "many" but not infinite or millions or something like that.

Tbh I don't really like this "it's just scenery" thing, almost every verse does something like this, otherwise you just can't describe it.

Besides, she is a knowledgeable researcher or something if @ActuallySpaceMan42 told me right, so that being literally uncountable shouldn't be wrong.

 

[Deagonx]

Besides, she is a knowledgeable researcher or something if @ActuallySpaceMan42 told me right, so that being literally uncountable shouldn't be wrong.

Being a knowledgeable researcher doesn't mean that her eyes work differently. If she were presenting an actual scientific thesis that the number was infinite or uncountably infinite that'd be one thing, but within the context it just says "she saw a bunch of sceneries, more than she could count" which all I can see that as being is too many images for her eyes to easily keep track of, rather than "uncountably infinite" which is an incredibly niche mathematical concept that isn't really being invoked here.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It seems more like she's seeing the different worlds, but in the context "more than she can count" wouldn't mean infinite or uncountable, since we're talking about what is appearing in her vision it appears to just literally mean more than she can count in front of her in the moment (whereas if she saw three images, she would very easily realize it was 3) so I am not comfortable agreeing to it being more than a simple "many" but not infinite or millions or something like that.

Well, I wasn't aiming for infinite anyway. More than you can count is just the definition of countless, and more than she could ever know, well I can know a lot of things in forever, so countless is a safe estimate.

 

[Deagonx]

More than you can count is just the definition of countless, and more than she could ever know, well I can know a lot of things in forever, so countless is a safe estimate.

What do you mean by countless if not infinite?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Being a knowledgeable researcher doesn't mean that her eyes work differently. If she were presenting an actual scientific thesis that the number was infinite or uncountably infinite that'd be one thing, but within the context it just says "she saw a bunch of sceneries, more than she could count" which all I can see that as being is too many images for her eyes to easily keep track of, rather than "uncountably infinite" which is an incredibly niche mathematical concept that isn't really being invoked here.

...but we never said that said dimensions are infinite, but just countless.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What do you mean by countless if not infinite?

Well on the wiki I thought we treat countless and infinite as too different things.

More than she could count, more than she could ever know.

More than you can count could mean countless, innumerable, etc. And more than you can ever know, is well, pretty self-explanatory. Either way, I would say countless spatial dimensions is not a stretch.

 

[Deagonx]

...but we never said that said dimensions are infinite, but just countless.

Well on the wiki I thought we treat countless and infinite as too different things.

More than you can count could mean countless, innumerable, etc. And more than you can ever know, is well, pretty self-explanatory. Either way, I would say countless spatial dimensions is not a stretch.

Okay, but again, what is the difference?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Okay, but again, what is the difference?

Countless Universes is 2-B, Infinite Universes is 2-A.

Countless Dimensions is 1-B, Infinite Dimensions is High 1-B.

 

[Deagonx]

Where does that come from? The tiering system page doesn't say that. 1-B is up to "eight to any finite amount."

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, but again, what is the difference?

Countless is simply a big big number that while is finite, you can't count.

Infinite is... infinite.