Madoka Kaname (PMMM) VS Asriel Dreemurr (Undertale)

[Aurasuke]

• Ah, okay.
• Yes, but countless x infinity is infinity.
• Yes but this doesn't really give us much go on. If you've ever studied calclus this is kind of what we call the interminant form. For instance if X approaches infinity and F(x)=x/x then we can say F(x)=1
• But if x=inifnity and F(x)=x/x^2 F(x)=0
• Basically we don't know who has a greater coefficent or degree in infinity since both are infinity.
• Madoka has shown feats for her level of infinity but Asriel is more power scaling from Chara.
• I've commented on this multiple times, actually. If someone with 99/99 can destroy countless timelines, whereas someone with 25/26 is city level, I think it's safe to say infinite is infinite. Stats not being linear makes it even more impressive. He also didn't let Frisk win. He stopped fighting.
• Lol well yeah sure you can interpret it that way, or you could think of it as the creators never realy put all that much thought into the power levels and decided they wanted to make a game where you can actually beat it rather than fightning someone with 1 000 0000 Att and 1 000 000 Def.
• It is. Check their durability.
• Okay, I've checked. Still I have doubts that he could really take on a magic god. They showed feats that were much more tangible rather than power scaling.

Basically you believe that the abilty to (not defeat because apparently he couldn't) fight Chara and overpower him, is more impressive than rewriting infinite timelines.

On the other hand, we can't actually tell who is stronger with these facts because there is almost no way to quantify this. It's like saying

6infinity is greater than infinity, but that isn't always true because we don't know the degree of either infinities. We don't know it's function.

 

[Aurasuke]

So a High 2-A character was able to kill a 2-B character repeatedly but somehow the 2-B character suvives because the player himself loaded a save or something?

Well Asriel hasn't manipulated reality as freely as the magic gods have. He's only been powered scaled to Chara. Othinius alone could rewrite reality as many times as she wanted, and the other Magic gods are infinitely stronger than her. When they use magic they can literally do anything that doesn't affect higher dimensions such as 13. (because the author never actually uses higher dimensions and follows string theory for 11 dimensional calculations)

No, because the 2-B character has High 2-A durability.

Well if to turn the chessboard around, he only has High 2-A durability because he survived attacks from Asriel lol. It's kind of a circular argument in a way.

Characters far below Asriel have destructive feats far beyond Othinius, so I don't see how that matters.

The Magic Gods can't affect dimensions above 5. You can ask DontTalk about this. He's explained it many, many times.

Well index is a bit different. They don't have parrallel universes but they have different ones. There's the hidden world, and the world where the world rejecter sends you, it's a bit different than most other fictions so I'm not sure if they're dimensions are like regular dimensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

• Yes but this doesn't really give us much go on. If you've ever studied calclus this is kind of what we call the interminant form. For instance if X approaches infinity and F(x)=x/x then we can say F(x)=1
• But if x=inifnity and F(x)=x/x^2 F(x)=0
• Basically we don't know who has a greater coefficent or degree in infinity since both are infinity.
• Madoka has shown feats for her level of infinity but Asriel is more power scaling from Chara.
• Lol well yeah sure you can interpret it that way, or you could think of it as the creators never realy put all that much thought into the power levels and decided they wanted to make a game where you can actually beat it rather than fightning someone with 1 000 0000 Att and 1 000 000 Def.
• Okay, I've checked. Still I have doubts that he could really take on a magic god. They showed feats that were much more tangible rather than power scaling.

Basically you believe that the abilty to (not defeat because apparently he couldn't) fight Chara and overpower him, is more impressive than rewriting infinite timelines.

On the other hand, we can't actually tell who is stronger with these facts because there is almost no way to quantify this. It's like saying

6infinity is greater than infinity, but that isn't always true because we don't know the degree of either infinities. We don't know it's function.

• Irrelevant. I simply said multiplying a positive number by infinity is infinity.

• Like I said, Madoka's feats are not as impressive as you're making them out to be. Yes, they could be High 2-A, but they're not the same as destroying infinite universes.

• Except that's not how Undertale works. Canon CHECK stats and internal stats are separate for a reason, and Asriel's CHECK stats are Infinity/Infinity.

• I never said Frisk could kill a Magic God. I said they couldn't just poof away Determination as you implied they could.

• Asriel never fought Chara. Where are you getting this?

• I've already talked about this. If you genuinely believe we can't compare these feats, you have no reason to say Madoka wins other than saying "I like Madoka, more".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well index is a bit different. They don't have parrallel universes but they have different ones. There's the hidden world, and the world where the world rejecter sends you, it's a bit different than most other fictions so I'm not sure if they're dimensions are like regular dimensions.

I'm moderately familiar with how the To Aru verse works, but DontTalk is an expert, which is why I said you could ask him.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, I read the series as well, all of the books except side stories.^

I've already talked about this. If you genuinely believe we can't compare these feats, you have no reason to say Madoka wins other than saying "I like Madoka, more".

Actually I consider them to be same for both rounds (as silly as that may seem, it's the only way that seems fair if we're comparing diferent series. (Because they are from different verses, I assume the tiers are the same level of power as they wil never fight. Sure you could be a tier High 2-A who defeated 100 other tier High 2-A but unless you really defeat your opponent who is High 2-A who could potentially be 1000 times stronger than you, you won't ever know that you can beat them).

The only reason I think that Madoka has an advantage is because she is Nigh-Omniscient while Asriel is immsurable in speed. They are both the same tier so it's not like Madoka is facing a tier 1-C or anything.

That's the only reasonable assumption I believe that Madoka has an advantage. Other than that it's all about interpretations and whether or not one feat is better than the other, and power scaling from others because there was no actual feats for that level of AP.

Anyway, basically Madoka is faster which is why I think she'll win. I'm reffering to the profiles, if Asriel is supposedly Omniscient as well then there's no way to tell.

However as far as I know speed gives Madoka the win.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually I consider them to be same for both rounds (as silly as that may seem, it's the only way that seems fair if we're comparing diferent series. (Because they are from different verses, I assume the tiers are the same level of power as they wil never fight. Sure you could be a tier High 2-A who defeated 100 other tier High 2-A but unless you really defeat your opponent who is High 2-A who could potentially be 1000 times stronger than you, you won't ever know that you can beat them).

The only reason I think that Madoka has an advantage is because she is Nigh-Omniscient while Asriel is immsurable in speed. They are both the same tier so it's not like Madoka is facing a tier 1-C or anything.

That's the only reasonable assumption I believe that Madoka has an advantage. Other than that it's all about interpretations and whether or not one feat is better than the other, and power scaling from others because there was no actual feats for that level of AP.

Anyway, basically Madoka is faster which is why I think she'll win. I'm reffering to the profiles, if Asriel is supposedly Omniscient as well then there's no way to tell.

However as far as I know speed gives Madoka the win.

Been over this, too. Madoka's likely not faster, as her reasons for being Nigh-omnipresent can all be applied to Chara, who Asriel is superior to. In fact, Asriel likely exists everywhere within the game, as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

Been over this, too. Madoka's likely not faster, as her reasons for being Nigh-omnipresent can all be applied to Chara, who Asriel is superior to. In fact, Asriel likely exists everywhere within the game, as well.

yet, something is keeping chara as immeasureable, which brings out the arguement, why isn't he nigh omnipresent? Until the page changes, the battle should strictly be by whats on the page. Also, chara's a concept? didn't know that, and where did you get omniprescent asriel?

 

[Aurasuke]

Been over this, too. Madoka's likely not faster, as her reasons for being Nigh-omnipresent can all be applied to Chara, who Asriel is superior to. In fact, Asriel likely exists everywhere within the game, as well.

Not sure what you mean by applied to Chara. She's omniscient as in she can be present in the past, present, and future, for all timelines, and even conceptual space (basically where she takes all those witches she erased). Basically she isn't just omnpresent in the now, but also the before, and after, in all universes. It's a omnipresence on a different level than most others that I know in the same dimensions at least.

Anyway, I'm just going with what either profile has stated, and took their stats to compare there. He could be likely omnispresent, but unless there's proof we won't really know that. Just like how the magic gods are immeasurable even though they likely are omniscpresent at least until they were weakened by Aleister.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

yet, something is keeping chara as immeasureable, which brings out the arguement, why isn't he nigh omnipresent? Until the page changes, the battle should strictly be by whats on the page. Also, chara's a concept? didn't know that, and where did you get omniprescent asriel?

Nothing is keeping Chara at immeasurable. I simply didn't make them Nigh-omnipresent when I made the page. I made it, I should know. Yes, Chara's a concept. They're the embodiment of the will the perpetuate violence and kill for your own gain (i.e. killing for exp and gold in an RPG), and they are revealed to exist not only throughout the game but outside its confines.

 

[Talonmask]

Omniscient doesn't have anything to do with placement and where the person is, it's possessing all knowledge, so stop using it incorrectly

 

[SomebodyData]

Omniscient doesn't have anything to do with placement and where the person is, it's possessing all knowledge, so stop using it incorrectly

wrong word lol

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Madoka is omnipresent because she is a concept. Nothing less. That's why Azathoth is implying that if Madoka can be nigh omnipresent Chara should be aswell.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not sure what you mean by applied to Chara. She's omniscient as in she can be present in the past, present, and future, for all timelines, and even conceptual space (basically where she takes all those witches she erased). Basically she isn't just omnpresent in the now, but also the before, and after, in all universes. It's a omnipresence on a different level than most others that I know in the same dimensions at least.

Anyway, I'm just going with what either profile has stated, and took their stats to compare there. He could be likely omnispresent, but unless there's proof we won't really know that. Just like how the magic gods are immeasurable even though they likely are omniscpresent at least until they were weakened by Aleister.

All of that first paragraph applies to Chara, who Asriel is infinitely superior to.

There is proof. I should know, since I made the profile. I simply hardly ever use "nigh-omnipresent" since it usually doesn't matter, but if that's what you believe to be the deciding factor here, I'm simply pointing out it applies to the other side, as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Madoka is omnipresent because she is a concept. Nothing less. That's why Azathoth is implying that if Madoka can be nigh omnipresent Chara should be aswell.

Pretty much this.

 

[Talonmask]

Omniscient doesn't have anything to do with placement and where the person is, it's possessing all knowledge, so stop using it incorrectly

wrong word lol

I was using the right word? Read the comments.

 

[Aurasuke]

yet, something is keeping chara as immeasureable, which brings out the arguement, why isn't he nigh omnipresent? Until the page changes, the battle should strictly be by whats on the page. Also, chara's a concept? didn't know that, and where did you get omniprescent asriel?

Nothing is keeping Chara at immeasurable. I simply didn't make them Nigh-omnipresent when I made the page. I made it, I should know. Yes, Chara's a concept. They're the embodiment of the will the perpetuate violence and kill for your own gain (i.e. killing for exp and gold in an RPG), and they are revealed to exist not only throughout the game but outside its confines.

Yet did she show any feats of being omnipresent though? If not you cannot say with absolute certainty.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yet did she show any feats of being omnipresent though? If not you cannot say with absolute certainty.

Yes. Existing in all timelines in the game, everywhere, even in the void when said timelines stopped existing, as well as outside the game.

 

[SomebodyData]

Omniscient doesn't have anything to do with placement and where the person is, it's possessing all knowledge, so stop using it incorrectly

wrong word lol

I was using the right word? Read the comments.

Read them again, for the past few comments Azzy and Aura have been using the right word. If someone misspoke it then you should of said it when they first did it, not now

 

[SomebodyData]

Yet did she show any feats of being omnipresent though? If not you cannot say with absolute certainty.

Yes. Existing in all timelines in the game, everywhere, even in the void when said timelines stopped existing, as well as outside the game.

Last time I checked, chara never fought Asriel and have quite a few differences from where their power origins. Am I wrong?

 

[Talonmask]

Omniscient doesn't have anything to do with placement and where the person is, it's possessing all knowledge, so stop using it incorrectly

wrong word lol

I was using the right word? Read the comments.

Read them again, for the past few comments Azzy and Aura have been using the right word. If someone misspoke it then you should of said it when they first did it, not now

Omnipresent has been what they are using, Omniscience has nothing to do with it hence why I said that Aura needed to stop using it when talking about Omnipresence. Saying it now was perfectly reasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Last time I checked, chara never fought Asriel and have quite a few differences from where their power origins. Am I wrong?

Yes, they are different, but their powers come from the same origin (remember when they fused?). Also, remember when Asriel also existed everywhere in the void outside all timelines? He was also completely merged with existence, with only Frisk standing in his way.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Sorry but you keep asking for feats of Chara being nigh omnipresent when Madoka doesn't have any either, it even took time for her arrows to hit the other side of the world. She is only listed as such for being an abstract multiversal concept the same as what Chara is

 

[Aurasuke]

Last time I checked, chara never fought Asriel and have quite a few differences from where their power origins. Am I wrong?

Yes, they are different, but their powers come from the same origin (remember when they fused?). Also, remember when Asriel also existed everywhere in the void outside all timelines? He was also completely merged with existence, with only Frisk standing in his way.

Wouldn't the fact that Frisk wasn't able to dodge any of Asriel's attacks make her non-omnipresent? Or if she could dodge all of his attacks then it's Asriel who isn't omnipresent. Basically the fact that there is movement suggests none of them are omnipresent at this level. The fact they can even fight brings questions to their speed tiers meaning it's not absolute.

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

The reason Madoka is nigh is because of the incubator's seal.

Sorry omniscient was a spelling error, I meant to say Omnipresent if I've ever said Omniscient in this debate.

 

[Tzula]

Are we on topic? idk anymore..

 

[Blahblah9755]

Are we on topic? idk anymore..

Pretty sure we are

 

[Tzula]

Okay then.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wouldn't the fact that Frisk wasn't able to dodge any of Asriel's attacks make her non-omnipresent? Or if she could dodge all of his attacks then it's Asriel who isn't omnipresent. Basically the fact that there is movement suggests none of them are omnipresent at this level. The fact they can even fight brings questions to their speed tiers meaning it's not absolute.

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

The reason Madoka is nigh is because of the incubator's seal.

Sorry omniscient was a spelling error, I meant to say Omnipresent if I've ever said Omniscient in this debate.

lol what even? So are you saying two Nigh-Omnipresent beings can't avoid each others' attack? Then Madoka really shouldn't be nigh-omnipresent, either. Also, there stops being movement as soon as Asriel goes 100%, so...

So Madoka actually has LESS omnipresent feats than Chara, then? Then I'm not seeing how any of this is more impressive and not just personal bias/arguing from ignorance, since as you've said yourself, you haven't played the game.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Last time I checked, chara never fought Asriel and have quite a few differences from where their power origins. Am I wrong?

Yes, they are different, but their powers come from the same origin (remember when they fused?). Also, remember when Asriel also existed everywhere in the void outside all timelines? He was also completely merged with existence, with only Frisk standing in his way.

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

Still. That would mean that her omnipresence is limited to space and does not apply to time at the very least. One can see Madoka scream and beg Homura to stop. So its obvious that she didn't expect that.

One could argue that Madoka couldn't simply realize what was going to happen because of the rupture in time. But even then wouldn't Madoka take action in that case? It is clear that Madoka doesn't have total awareness of time.

 

[Aurasuke]

lol what even? So are you saying two Nigh-Omnipresent beings can't avoid each others' attack? Then Madoka really shouldn't be nigh-omnipresent, either.

Omnipresence is the highest speed tier meaning you are everywhere at once. The only way you can be faster is if you are immeasurable in a higher dimension.

If two omnipresence exists at the same level, then both of them would be considered immeasurable as they clearly have a defined speed at that dimensional level.

So Madoka actually has LESS omnipresent feats than Chara, then? Then I'm not seeing how any of this is more impressive and not just personal bias/arguing from ignorance, since as you've said yourself, you haven't played the game.

Have you watched Madoka though? I don't see how you came to that conclusion by less Omnipresent feats. What feats do Chara have that are more impressive?

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry but you keep asking for feats of Chara being nigh omnipresent when Madoka doesn't have any either, it even took time for her arrows to hit the other side of the world. She is only listed as such for being an abstract multiversal concept the same as what Chara is

She *cough excuse me, you do know that the magical girls she saved were through

a-cinematic time (so you can't even say how long it took her)

b-from entirely different time periods (Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, etc)

c-after she rewrote the inifinite multiverse, she began doing the same thing through every multiverse and know consider that its an infinite multiverse (meaning that she has to the same thing several times at the same time which is a feat of nigh omniprescence)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Omnipresence is the highest speed tier meaning you are everywhere at once. The only way you can be faster is if you are immeasurable in a higher dimension.

If two omnipresence exists at the same level, then both of them would be considered immeasurable as they clearly have a defined speed at that dimensional level.

Have you watched Madoka though? I don't see how you came to that conclusion by less Omnipresent feats. What feats do Chara have that are more impressive?

I know. I'm the one who told you that.

Exactly, which is my point.

Yes, I have. And I've come to that conclusion because I'd forgotten about the Homura thing, which does in fact make her seem less omnipresent by your own standards. I've also given you Chara's omnipresence feats, so I don't know if you just didn't read them or what.

 

[Tzula]

I Can't process this.

Cam I get a TLr.

 

[Aurasuke]

Last time I checked, chara never fought Asriel and have quite a few differences from where their power origins. Am I wrong?

Yes, they are different, but their powers come from the same origin (remember when they fused?). Also, remember when Asriel also existed everywhere in the void outside all timelines? He was also completely merged with existence, with only Frisk standing in his way.

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

Still. That would mean that her omnipresence is limited to space and does not apply to time at the very least. One can see Madoka scream and beg Homura to stop. So its obvious that she didn't expect that.
One could argue that Madoka couldn't simply realize what was going to happen because of the rupture in time. But even then wouldn't Madoka take action in that case? It is clear that Madoka doesn't have total awareness of time.

If you want the real answer, it's because the directors felt that we needed another sequel and decided to give Homura God powers for no reason. Other than that, I would theorize Madoka wanted her to take her. If you think about it does make sense in a way. Homura allowed all the magical girls a second chance at life as normal humans. Is that really so evil that madoka would reject it? Madoka was given the chance to live ordinarily. She may say that she didn't want Homura to do that but can you say that she really would reject her best friend? She clearly didn't do anything to stop her so we can only conclude that either Homura gained instant God Powers, or Madoka allowed her to use her powers to rewrite reality.

 

[SomebodyData]

I know. I'm the one who told you that.

Exactly, which is my point.

Yes, I have. And I've come to that conclusion because I'd forgotten about the Homura thing, which does in fact make her seem less omnipresent by your own standards. I've also given you Chara's omnipresence feats, so I don't know if you just didn't read them or what.

Actually can you post it for me, I can't find it sorry lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually can you post it for me, I can't find it sorry lol

"Existing in all timelines in the game, everywhere, even in the void when said timelines stopped existing, as well as outside the game."

Here ya go, mate.

 

[Aurasuke]

Still. That would mean that her omnipresence is limited to space and does not apply to time at the very least.
I think you're reffering to Homura, Madoka has already been stated and shown to exist in all timelines, everywhere even in conceptual space that doesn't actually exist (the space where she, Sayaka and Nagisa and all the erased witches went to after she carried them away and "saved' them).

Homura is scaled to Madoka and shown to be omnipresent in the new reality she made herself.

 

[Aurasuke]

Omnipresence is the highest speed tier meaning you are everywhere at once. The only way you can be faster is if you are immeasurable in a higher dimension.

If two omnipresence exists at the same level, then both of them would be considered immeasurable as they clearly have a defined speed at that dimensional level.

Have you watched Madoka though? I don't see how you came to that conclusion by less Omnipresent feats. What feats do Chara have that are more impressive?

I know. I'm the one who told you that.

Exactly, which is my point.

Yes, I have. And I've come to that conclusion because I'd forgotten about the Homura thing, which does in fact make her seem less omnipresent by your own standards. I've also given you Chara's omnipresence feats, so I don't know if you just didn't read them or what.

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

 

[SomebodyData]

"Existing in all timelines in the game, everywhere, even in the void when said timelines stopped existing, as well as outside the game."

Here ya go, mate.

Thanks, but now that brings a probelm, why didn't Chara (assuming this is chara) kill everyone in an instant?

If this is Asriel... well continue along your marry way lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you say that Madoka being tagged by Homura makes her less Omnipresent, it's because Madoka let her touch her. She consider Homura her best friend so there's no reason for her to dodge or avoid her. In fact all Homura actually did was hold her hands. Homura on the other hand had showed a lot more impressive feats of omnipresent when she was dealing with Sayaka.She was showed actual feats of Omniprescence and reality warping.

Which is still less impressive compared to Asriel, who Frisk could never even touch during battle.

 

[Aurasuke]

Actually can you post it for me, I can't find it sorry lol

"Existing in all timelines in the game, everywhere, even in the void when said timelines stopped existing, as well as outside the game."
Here ya go, mate.

This is my response for outside of the game: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

Is there any reason why you didn't write Omnipresent for both then when you made the profiles? You're kind of asking to contradict the profile that you made, by telling us that she's omnipresent.