Madoka Kaname (PMMM) VS Asriel Dreemurr (Undertale)

[Aurasuke]

Okay well if everyone says speed is equalized we're back at the caculus page of indeterminant forms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form

 

[NotEvenHuman]

#Not a real battle if speed is equalized
Flash vs Accelerator speed equalize go!

Lol anyway,

Why would it need to explicitly say "Chara is omnipresent"? Showing that they exist EVERYWHERE in and out of all possible timelines isn't enough?

So how exactly is it shown that she's everywhere though? Where does it say that she's everwhere in and out all possible timelines?

What do you mean, not a real battle?

Why did you even bring up Flash vs Accel? That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

You should stop debating on their speeds. It's just going to waste everyone's time and energy.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Immeasurable: Being able to move outside of linear time
Omniprescence: Being able to be everywhere through time and space

Correct me if I'm wrong with these definitions but LINEAR time is different

If you can move outside of linear time it's possible to travel to infinite multiverses in any amount of linear time, since Madoka is immortal she has time on a second dimension of time to perform these events, meaning she could travel to infinite universes if she wanted to, without necessarily being omnipresent, once again I'm not trying to say she isn't omnipresent, just that she has no feats of it besides being a concept present throughout the multiverse which Chara also has
She isn't a omnipresnt because she's a concept, she's omnipresent because she's a Goddess. She isn't immortal, she killed her future self as a witch. She did everything instantly not gradually, no one even notices her, she isn't even detectable by the Kyuubi. No one even knows of her existence. If you watched the last episode it's obvious. She's also been shown to dissapear and reappear in conceptual dimensions.

Sorry, but why would being a goddess make one omnipresent, could you go into a bit more detail what you meant there? Also, fading into and out of existence could be something as low key as teleportation. She exists on higher dimensional time so everything she did would seem instant to lower dimensional time, nothing listed has been concrete proof of her being omnipresent, besides her being a concept. I've even seen admins explaining when asked that she's listed as omnipresent because she exists as an abstract concept across all of the multiverse.

 

[Tzula]

mah brain.

 

[Blahblah9755]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

Lol totally missed that

 

[Aurasuke]

What do you mean, not a real battle?

Why did you even bring up Flash vs Accel? That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

You should stop debating on their speeds. It's just going to waste everyone's time and energy.

I thought it would be obvious. Flash has only his speed advantage against accel. If they're speeds are equal to let's say both regular human level, then Accel would easily defeat the slash because he's fightning a regular human with vector manipulation. This is what I mean.

 

[SomebodyData]

mah brain.

can you not leave random comments?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

I feel really akward right now...

 

[Promestein]

Aura, can you please stay on topic and stop talking about Accelerator everywhere?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Aura, can you please stay on topic and stop talking about Accelerator everywhere?

Prom you have slain me.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry, but why would being a goddess make one omnipresent, could you go into a bit more detail what you meant there? Also, fading into and out of existence could be something as low key as teleportation. She exists on higher dimensional time so everything she did would seem instant to lower dimensional time, nothing listed has been concrete proof of her being omnipresent, besides her being a concept. I've even seen admins explaining when asked that she's listed as omnipresent because she exists as an abstract concept across all of the multiverse.

Now that their multiverse is infinite, doesn't that mean that shes now omniprescent.....

 

[Aurasuke]

So how exactly is it shown that she's everywhere though? Where does it say that she's everwhere in and out all possible timelines?

Chara is shown to exist in all timelines. Following a genocide run, the player will be able to see there's no escape from them. Chara is always there, and Chara is even there in the empty void when everything is gone. Chara is everywhere, regardless of if it's the past, present, or future, even in the empty void beyond time and space. Seems like evidence for Nigh-omnipresence to omnipresence, to me.

If we turn the tables on that though, when we play as Chara, she has a lot less than infinite speed albeit immesurable speed when she faces Flowley. My point is even though they may appear and dissapear in all places does that really mean they are omnipresent? If they simply teleport from one place to another, you can't tell the difference. That's why I asked for an explicit statement about them being omnipresent or everywhere at the very least.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

What do you mean, not a real battle?

Why did you even bring up Flash vs Accel? That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

You should stop debating on their speeds. It's just going to waste everyone's time and energy.

I thought it would be obvious. Flash has only his speed advantage against accel. If they're speeds are equal to let's say both regular human level, then Accel would easily defeat the slash because he's fightning a regular human with vector manipulation. This is what I mean.

Still nothing to do with the thread, unless you are saying that Madoka loses with speed equalized.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Now that their multiverse is infinite, doesn't that mean that shes now omniprescent.....

But that feat should still be achievable by someone outside of linear time, who has infinite higher D time via killing their future self, shouldn't it?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If we turn the tables on that though, when we play as Chara, she has a lot less than infinite speed albeit immesurable speed when she faces Flowley. My point is even though they may appear and dissapear in all places does that really mean they are omnipresent? If they simply teleport from one place to another, you can't tell the difference. That's why I asked for an explicit statement about them being omnipresent or everywhere at the very least.

Dude.

You never.

Play.

As.

Chara.

You always play as Frisk. Chara simply hijacks control from Frisk (and eventually you) during a genocide run.

You really, really need to at least watch a playthrough of the game before making these statements, because as I said before, you're arguing from ignorance and it's getting you nowhere.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, uh, Chara is a bit a concept, a feeling if you will, it is powered by a single entity yes but it is still a concept. I cannot picture a conceptual being not being Omnipresent.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Still nothing to do with the thread, unless you are saying that Madoka loses with speed equalized.

He's using an analogy to show how the result changes with speed equalized, so it is sort of related

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, uh, Chara is a bit a concept, a feeling if you will, it is powered by a single entity yes but it is still a concept. I cannot picture a conceptual being not being Omnipresent.

Chara's actually powered by everyone who can feel them, but in the genocide run they specifically suck Determination from you (the player/Frisk) so...yeah.

 

[Aurasuke]

Still nothing to do with the thread, unless you are saying that Madoka loses with speed equalized.

I'm saying that if speed is unequalized, Madoka would more likely win due to a higher speed tier.

If speed equalized, the battle will result in two infinities each one just as likely as large as the other resulting in this.

Basically there's two unknown functions where X=infnity and F(x) exists for both Madoka and Asriel. Thus we cannot determine for sure a winner.

In terms of feats Azothoth proposes that badly overpowering a tier 2-B with High 2-A durability (because he's scaled from Asriel so it's a bit of a circular argument) means that he's stronger in terms of feats.

In terms of power scaling, he's has infinite stats, and his higher form is greater than his lower one but still of the same tier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form

Madoka on the other hand rewrote all universes infinite of them, and exists in a space higher than normal space time much like Asriel.

The problem is that we don't know who has the larger infinite value, you could slay 100 Tier High 2-A in your own universe but you could still be 1000 times weaker than another Tier High 2-A in another series. There's no way to know as they never fight.

t's like saying if a character never fights, they can never prove their power against another in a different verse

 

[SomebodyData]

Chara's actually powered by everyone who can feel them, but in the genocide run they specifically suck Determination from you (the player/Frisk) so...yeah.

Madoka erases concept. Chara is concept. Madoka wins

(I'm joking... I think)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Madoka on the other hand rewrote all universes infinite of them, and exists in a space higher than normal space time much like Asriel.

Madoka didn't rewrite infinite universes. She changed one concept in all universes. There is a very, very big difference.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Madoka on the other hand rewrote all universes infinite of them, and exists in a space higher than normal space time much like Asriel.

Madoka didn't rewrite infinite universes. She changed one concept in all universes. There is a very, very big difference.

^^This.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Chara's actually powered by everyone who can feel them, but in the genocide run they specifically suck Determination from you (the player/Frisk) so...yeah.

Madoka erases concept. Chara is concept. Madoka wins
(I'm joking... I think)

Chara is a concept that can exists outside the Multiverse, where Madoka is bound. So yeah no she's not deleting them.

 

[Aurasuke]

Dude.

You never.

Play.

As.

Chara.

You always play as Frisk. Chara simply hijacks control from Frisk (and eventually you) during a genocide run.

You really, really need to at least watch a playthrough of the game before making these statements, because as I said before, you're arguing from ignorance and it's getting you nowhere.

Maybe so but have you seen Madoka though? My time constraints are a bit tight to be playing every game like this.

You always play as Frisk. Chara simply hijacks control from Frisk (and eventually you) during a genocide run.

Yes, but that isn't really proof of omnipresence. Hacking can be done anywhere if you have dimensional control abilities. It's like a dimensional remote control.

It's true that I'm arguging from ignorance, but if we turn around the chessboard (Was watching Umineko the other day lol) Have you watched Madoka and rebellion (great movie you should totally see it, but only after watching the original series).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Maybe so but have you seen Madoka though? My time constraints are a bit tight to be playing every game like this.

Yes, but that isn't really proof of omnipresence. Hacking can be done anywhere if you have dimensional control abilities. It's like a dimensional remote control.

It's true that I'm arguging from ignorance, but if we turn around the chessboard (Was watching Umineko the other day lol) Have you watched Madoka and rebellion (great movie you should totally see it, but only after watching the original series)

Yes, I've already told you I've seen PMMM.

What...? I never said that was proof of omnipresence. I said you don't play as Chara. Chara simply hijacks you.

See first sentence.

 

[Aurasuke]

Madoka didn't rewrite infinite universes. She changed one concept in all universes. There is a very, very big difference.

Imagine what would happen if you took away the law of gravity from all universes? No stars would form, no life would be made, it would break the laws of casuality by just being there this in itself would affect reality in a way that cannot be determined naturally, yet Madoka was able to reshape the world where everything was pretty much normal the only difference being that she wasn't there.

If Kyuubi didn't exist or Magical girls/witches didn't exist people would still be living in caves, yet despite that, Madoka was able to reshape all the worlds into one that she desired. In a way it's pretty much negate concept, universe all falls apart, reshapes the universe in order to create a new one.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's not how it works, dude. As Alice said above, reality warping and direct AP are very, very different in some cases. Removing concepts is one of them.

 

[Aurasuke]

Maybe so but have you seen Madoka though? My time constraints are a bit tight to be playing every game like this.

Yes, but that isn't really proof of omnipresence. Hacking can be done anywhere if you have dimensional control abilities. It's like a dimensional remote control.

It's true that I'm arguging from ignorance, but if we turn around the chessboard (Was watching Umineko the other day lol) Have you watched Madoka and rebellion (great movie you should totally see it, but only after watching the original series)

Yes, I've already told you I've seen PMMM.

What...? I never said that was proof of omnipresence. I said you don't play as Chara. Chara simply hijacks you.

See first sentence.

Okay, then is there any explicit proof of omnipresence that involves an actual statement or at least "they are everywhere, space, time, even beyond it" something like that? Dissapearing and reappearing can simply be teleportating on a high scale.

 

[Aurasuke]

That's not how it works, dude. As Alice said above, reality warping and direct AP are very, very different in some cases. Removing concepts is one of them.

Well if you've watched Rebellion though, Homura has been shown to freely warp reality just like Madoka had except to how she sees fits.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Madoka didn't rewrite infinite universes. She changed one concept in all universes. There is a very, very big difference.
Imagine what would happen if you took away the law of gravity from all universes? No stars would form, no life would be made, it would break the laws of casuality by just being there this in itself would affect reality in a way that cannot be determined naturally, yet Madoka was able to reshape the world where everything was pretty much normal the only difference being that she wasn't there.

If Kyuubi didn't exist or Magical girls/witches didn't exist people would still be living in caves, yet despite that, Madoka was able to reshape all the worlds into one that she desired. In a way it's pretty much negate concept, universe all falls apart, reshapes the universe in order to create a new one.

By that logic, anyone with Star level AP is Solar System level, because destroying the Sun would result in our solar system falling apart. Also, Magical Girls and the Incubators still existed. Madoka only erased the Witches.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay, then is there any explicit proof of omnipresence that involves an actual statement or at least "they are everywhere, space, time, even beyond it" something like that? Dissapearing and reappearing can simply be teleportating on a high scale.

I have no idea what you're even talking about, now. I've already told you why they're omnipresent. The disappearing and reappearing thing has to do with MADOKA, not Chara. In fact, that was one of your points as to why she's omnipresent. Also, why would someone need to say "they are everywhere, space, time, and even beyond it" when said character has shown to be exactly that?

 

[Promestein]

Aura, what.

You can post this evidence for nigh-omnipresent Madoka and it's completely solid to you, and Azathoth uses the same reasoning and evidence to push nigh-omnipresent Chara and you need a explicit statement signed in Toby Fox's blood for you to take it seriously?

 

[Tzula]

I guess..

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

That's not how it works, dude. As Alice said above, reality warping and direct AP are very, very different in some cases. Removing concepts is one of them.

Well if you've watched Rebellion though, Homura has been shown to freely warp reality just like Madoka had except to how she sees fits.

Homura only warp reality the same way as Madoka did. No more. I think she couldn't even erase the world's curses.

 

[Aurasuke]

Okay, then is there any explicit proof of omnipresence that involves an actual statement or at least "they are everywhere, space, time, even beyond it" something like that? Dissapearing and reappearing can simply be teleportating on a high scale.

I have no idea what you're even talking about, now. I've already told you why they're omnipresent. The disappearing and reappearing thing has to do with MADOKA, not Chara. In fact, that was one of your points as to why she's omnipresent. Also, why would someone need to say "they are everywhere, space, time, and even beyond it" when said character has shown to be exactly that?

No, Madoka's confirmed omnipresence was because she told Homura that she would appear in the past, present and future, everywhere, even if she couldn't see, or touch her.

There was a statement involved that determined that she was everywhere.

If no such statement is involved then it is possible that they are simply teleporting really quickly. That's why I asked if there's any explicity evidence, not because Madoka appears and reappears.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, Madoka's confirmed omnipresence was because she told Homura that she would appear in the past, present and future, everywhere, even if she couldn't see, or touch her.

There was a statement involved that determined that she was everywhere.

If no such statement is involved then it is possible that they are simply teleporting really quickly. That's why I asked if there's any explicity evidence, not because Madoka appears and reappears.

You realize, by your own logic, that could also be teleportation, right?

Chara appears in all possible pasts, presents, and futures. Along with the void outside the game and within the player themself. How is this not enough?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Okay, then is there any explicit proof of omnipresence that involves an actual statement or at least "they are everywhere, space, time, even beyond it" something like that? Dissapearing and reappearing can simply be teleportating on a high scale.

I have no idea what you're even talking about, now. I've already told you why they're omnipresent. The disappearing and reappearing thing has to do with MADOKA, not Chara. In fact, that was one of your points as to why she's omnipresent. Also, why would someone need to say "they are everywhere, space, time, and even beyond it" when said character has shown to be exactly that?

No, Madoka's confirmed omnipresence was because she told Homura that she would appear in the past, present and future, everywhere, even if she couldn't see, or touch her.
There was a statement involved that determined that she was everywhere.

If no such statement is involved then it is possible that they are simply teleporting really quickly. That's why I asked if there's any explicity evidence, not because Madoka appears and reappears.

Obviously. She appears to prevent Puella Magi from transform into witches. But again. That's not omnipresence. Again. If she was in the future or if her omnipresence was unavoidable then Homura could never touch Madoka.

 

[Aurasuke]

You realize, by your own logic, that could also be teleportation, right?


Chara appears in all possible pasts, presents, and futures. Along with the void outside the game and within the player themself. How is this not enough?


No, Madoka's confirmed omnipresence was because she told Homura that she would appear in the past, present and future, everywhere, even if she couldn't see, or touch her.

Because Madoka explicitly told Homura she be everywhere.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

You realize, by your own logic, that could also be teleportation, right?


Chara appears in all possible pasts, presents, and futures. Along with the void outside the game and within the player themself. How is this not enough?


No, Madoka's confirmed omnipresence was because she told Homura that she would appear in the past, present and future, everywhere, even if she couldn't see, or touch her.

Because Madoka explicitly told Homura she be everywhere.

Statement that is contradicted in Rebellion.

 

[Aurasuke]

Statement that is contradicted in Rebellion.

hence the Nigh-.