Madoka Kaname (PMMM) VS Asriel Dreemurr (Undertale)

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ahhh. I see.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

To be honest. Can we consider things like breaking the fourth wall and speaking to the audience in the first place? i mean. Yeah. Flowey seems aware of the player existance aswell as the fact that people "can" see a playthrough without playing the game. But that's not quantificable. I mean by that logic characters like Deadpool would be omnipresent.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Normally I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that the player DOES in fact have a significant role in the story beyond just playing the game and being the target of cheesy fourth wall breaks.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Well. In OFF for example. The player also play a significant ole in the story and the characters are aware of him. But still. I haven't read in this wiki that they are nigh-omnipresence

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, being aware of a higher form of existence doesn't equate to omnipresence anyways.

However, claiming the soul of one, or deliberately resisting the commands from one are another story altogether.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

To be honest any interaction with the player should be taken carefuly. I mean. I understeand what you are trying to say. But if we are going to bring up things like Chara stealing the player's soul then we should start creating a line between that entity (The player) and Us (And by us i mean us) Because. Well. I've finished the no-mercy run a couple of times and from what i know my soul is right in its place.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So Asriel wins, right? Based in what Azathoth said, I mean.

Meanwhile, imagine how cool it would be if Madoka replaced Frisk in Undertale True Pacifist route. She'll spare every single monster because they think Madoka is too adorable!....

Okay fine, that was pretty silly.. Back on topic. Who would really win?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So Asriel wins, right? Based in what Azathoth said, I mean.
Meanwhile, imagine how cool it would be if Madoka replaced Frisk in Undertale True Pacifist route. She'll spare every single monster because they think Madoka is too adorable!....

Okay fine, that was pretty silly.. Back on topic. Who would really win?

You don't have to follow my opinion. lol Your choice is all up to you.

Also, that is an amazing image.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So Asriel wins, right? Based in what Azathoth said, I mean.
Meanwhile, imagine how cool it would be if Madoka replaced Frisk in Undertale True Pacifist route. She'll spare every single monster because they think Madoka is too adorable!....

Okay fine, that was pretty silly.. Back on topic. Who would really win?

You don't have to follow my opinion. lol Your choice is all up to you.
Also, that is an amazing image.

Well okay. But I really don't know who win in Round 2.. They seem pretty equal.. So inconclusive maybe?

IKR? Madoka's SOUL gem would "refuse to die". And Madoka, unlike True Pacifist Frisk, would actually be able to fight back against Asriel! In Undertale, I couldn't help but see parallels to various anime, such as Gurren Lagann and Madoka Magica, (Which by the way, are both my favorites!)

 

[Drac32Drac]

To be honest any interaction with the player should be taken carefuly. I mean. I understeand what you are trying to say. But if we are going to bring up things like Chara stealing the player's soul then we should start creating a line between that entity (The player) and Us (And by us i mean us) Because. Well. I've finished the no-mercy run a couple of times and from what i know my soul is right in its place.

Yes... Undertale is good at blurring the lines between where the game ends and reality begins. It's no surprise that many people don't want to do the genocide run. It plays on real fears. I agree. What I said obviously applies to the 'game' concept of the player.

That said, I could easily envision a scenario where a writer could literally write Chara ascending from his verse as a game character to the Player's(also a story element) verse. I only mention that to illustrate the concepts involved. Now, back to the discussion with Asriel.

 

[Aurasuke]

I've already been over this. You said we should compare feats becaue one cannot determine how strong two High 2-A characters from across franchises are compared to each other.
I did exactly that, and said that in my personal opinion, Asriel's serious feats are far, far more impressive.

You can disagree, but if you truly believe there is no way to discern which of these feats is better, then you have no reason to say Madoka wins other than saying "I like Madoka, more".

Also, I kinda doubt now that Madoka has a speed advantage. Because if we're basing her nigh-omnipresence off the fact she's a concept present everywhere in the multiverse, so is Chara, and Asriel's vastly superior to them. In fact, Asriel is also likely omnipresent through the game.

Well actually now that I think about it, there is one feat that Madoka has that would make her a lot more impressive than Asriel. Asriel is infnitely stronger than God Flower, and apparently his serious mode is an unknown times stronger than that.

However Madoka had actually defeated her future self and continues to do so in a paradoxical nature. Most witches are much stronger in pretty much all stats after they end their life as a magical girl. Take Sayaka, or Homura for example, their witch forms are much stronger than their magical girl forms at least in terms of raw power.

Her profile states that her final witch form is at least planet level however that is an assumption based on the last parts of where we see her final witch form surround the entire earth. However doesn't it seem strange to you that Madoka's final witch form would be that much weaker than her Goddess form? Every other magical girl had a much more powerful witch in the end than their magical girl form. The reason that Madoka was able to defeat her witch form was because of her wish, to destroy all witches including herself because eventually she too will become a witch, but that hardly matters since she exists even after she's destroyed her future self.

She's fightning an endless battle with her future self basically, and continue to exist outside the realm of time as a result of this paradox.

Also when you destroy the concept of witches that itself violates casuality on quite a high level. If you think about it each event leads to the next, yet by erasing the concept of witches before they are even born, the people who were killed by witches would never have been killed, as a result of that, some girls wouldn't have formed contracts in order to fight the witches because they wouldn't know they existed. Basically it's like saying gravity doesn't exist now on every single universe, what kind of implications would that have?

Anyway, basically, what I'm trying to say is that it is likely that Madoka's Final Form as a witch is near or stronger than she is based on what we've seen from the previous magical girls. However her wish takes precedence over this as she has the ability to destroy all Witches meaning her future self is included.

 

[Aurasuke]

So basically his stats say infinite which makes him High 2-A right?

 

[Aurasuke]

I've already been over this. You said we should compare feats becaue one cannot determine how strong two High 2-A characters from across franchises are compared to each other.
I did exactly that, and said that in my personal opinion, Asriel's serious feats are far, far more impressive.

You can disagree, but if you truly believe there is no way to discern which of these feats is better, then you have no reason to say Madoka wins other than saying "I like Madoka, more".

Also, I kinda doubt now that Madoka has a speed advantage. Because if we're basing her nigh-omnipresence off the fact she's a concept present everywhere in the multiverse, so is Chara, and Asriel's vastly superior to them. In fact, Asriel is also likely omnipresent through the game.

Well her page does say Immeasurable. So not exactly nigh omniscient.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chara

 

[Aurasuke]

Weird lol

Apparently Flowley is the future version of Asriel so technically he's infinitely stronger than himself? Thought that's only because his attack and defence are at infinite, and he is technically superior to Chara who is tier 2-B even though he lost to her. Flowley's tier 2-A rating came from overpowering Frisk. Thus god flower had Attack and Def stats like 100 or so for both, while Asriel has stats of infinite.

However that isn't really a feat, more like scaling, so in a way yes he is technically infinitely stronger than god flower but to be more precise you could think of it as Infinity/100 times stronger which is still infinite technically in mathmatically terms. (BTW this probably isn't true, I couldn't find God Flowley's stats anywhere, so he's actuall attack or defense is pretty unknown so we can only say that he's stronger than Frisk, however Asriel being infinitely stronger than frisk (at least in terms of stats) is thus stronger than his future self.

If you think about this for a second though you'll realize that his strongest form is many times stronger than his previous form, but by an unknown amount. So then you would give him back a multiplier?

Infinity/100* unknown number=Infinity?

Asriel's best "feat" (not power scaling due to his stats I mean) is overpowering Chara who is tier 2-B. Even then he didn't do it instantneously (even though it's beyond the concept of normal time, it's not beyond the concept of higher time in that dimension).

In other words overpowering a 2-B character is his best feat while power scaling to Flowley, his "future self" he is infinity/100 times stronger or so. Flowley is also scaled to frisk who is tier 2-B for being stated to being stronger despite having lost to Frisk giving him a likely 2-A rating.

Madoka on the other hand is rated High 2-A because she rewrote all universes in Madoka breaking casuality and killing her future self while remaining above the concept of time. She exists in all universes, past present and future, yet can never be seen or detected and becomes the concept of hope.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Frankly I don't know what's up with the Stats for Multiversal stuff. I mean, Madoka can affect all the Universes inside a Multiverse, yet Chara can affect (and destroy) the Multiverse itself, I don't know why it is the same (Sounds like the diffeence between High 3-A and Low 2-C)

 

[Aurasuke]

You seem to not understand that Multiverse=many universes.

Chara can destroy maybe 10^5000 or so universes but Madoka can destroy all of them, where there is an infinite amount. Madoka also exists outside the realm of any universe because she is a concept. She's Omnipresence everywhere except during the third movie in the incubators seal which she pretty much broke.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure that there is a difference between just a lot of universes together and the actual fabric of the Multiverse.

 

[Aurasuke]

Our tier system disagrees with that statement

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

Tier 2: Multi-Universal

2-C: Multi-Universe level
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of one universe, not just the physical matter within one.
• Multi-Universe level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums.

2-B: Multiverse level
Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to 10^500 universal space-time continuums. 10^500 is the scientifically theorized number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums within our own multiverse.

2-A: Multiverse level+
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create a finite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums that is equal or greater than 10^500.
• High Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create an infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. This category also includes 5-dimensional characters.

anything that can destroy infinite multiverses is this tier

Tier 1: Higher-Dimensional

1-C: Complex Multiverse level
These are 6-11-dimensional characters. Even 6-dimensional characters can logically easily destroy an infinite number of simple multiversal space-time continuums (this is roughly the equivalent of the previous "Megaverse" term), and 7-dimensional characters exceed that scale an infinite number of times, and so onwards. However, these characters do not exceed the 11-dimensional scale of the complete totality of a full multiverse, as defined by M-Theory.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, wasn't Lord English rated higher because of something similar?

 

[The_Everlasting]

He tore apart the fabric of the entire multiversal structure (All 11 dimensions) on a fundamental level, similarly, he is comparable to or above John, who, currently, exists beyond the totality of the multiverse.

It's a bit different from the two characters here.

 

[Aurasuke]

I have no idea how Lord English was rated, but he is tier low 1-B. He probably affected "higher" dimensions. Which is what is required for tier 1.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but wouldn't be breaking the Multiverse (A higher dimensional object than a Universe) be higher than breaking a lot of Universe? (A 4th dimensional object) Or is there something I'm not getting?

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm a bit confused at what you're asking. Mind phrasing it a little differently?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well a Multiverse is a higher dimensional object, right? Like, more dimensions than a Space Time Continuum is, right? So, would destroying one be higher than what we call Multiversal?

 

[The_Everlasting]

The very base foundation of the multiverse is 4-dimensional, but it increases to 11-dimensional before one truly goes beyond the multiverse. Technically, the compilation of all universes within the multiverse is only 4-d.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yeah but wouldn't be breaking the Multiverse (A higher dimensional object than a Universe) be higher than breaking a lot of Universe? (A 4th dimensional object) Or is there something I'm not getting?

In this wiki Multiverse refers to More than 1 universe. There isn't a higher dimensional object because it's not defined that way. Destroying 1 universe means you'r universe+, destroying 10 means your multi-universal, destroying 10^500 means you Multiversal 2-A, destroying Infinite means your HIgh Multiversal+

If you're talking about destroying a multiverse (assuming a collection of infinite universes) that is tier 1-C.

meant to say infinite multiverses.

However that isn't the rating for Chara's page. It is clearly 2-B not 1-C

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well uh, according to what you linked, 1-C is actually destroying an Infinite number of Multiverses, not just Universes.

 

[Aurasuke]

The very base foundation of the multiverse is 4-dimensional, but it increases to 11-dimensional before one truly goes beyond the multiverse. Technically, the compilation of all universes within the multiverse is only 4-d.

Well actually I think 4-D refers to 1 space time continum. If you connect 1 space time continuum to another that is a line in 5 dimensions. Thus multiple 4-D universes is 5-D line. If you want an 5-D plane that's kind of infinite universes according to string theory. They also refer to 5-D as probability space where events that are within our realm of probability are likely to occur. Of course some authors are oblivious to string theory.

 

[Aurasuke]

Well uh, according to what you linked, 1-C is actually destroying an Infinite number of Multiverses, not just Universes.

Well fine yeah I suppose so then it is. Basically this wiki has really weird phrasing of M-theory or string theory.

I kind of want to rewrite the tier 1-C definition lol.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, uh, that's how I understand it:

2-C/2-B/2-A: A single space-time continuum, 4D

High 2-A: An infinite number of Universes or a single Multiverse, 5D

Low 1-C: An infinite number of Multiverses, 6D

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, your analogy gives the impression that 5-D would be ONE universe... assuming a true geometric line(all timelines). Following that? Turning it into a plane would make 6-D construct in your analogy(all universes). Could you perhaps enlighten me a bit more? Or am I just completely missing it?

 

[Aurasuke]

Yeah but Chara isn't rated High 2-A. Also

2-B: Multiverse level
Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to 10^500 universal space-time continuums. 10^500 is the scientifically theorized number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums within our own multiverse.

This is Chara's level

2-A: Multiverse level+
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create a finite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums that is equal or greater than 10^500.
• High Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create an infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. This category also includes 5-dimensional characters.

This is madokas level

Basically no Multiverse doesn't mean Infinite universes. It means up to 10^500 universes. Infinite universes is HIgh Multiverse level+.

 

[Aurasuke]

If you see my post above it explains pretty clearly how the tier system is made.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I'm going to ask. We are giving Madoka an attack potency of High Multiverse because she killed the concept of witch in infinite universes?

 

[Aurasuke]

Because doing so rewrites every one of those universes. Homura who used Madoka's power has also been able to warp reality freely.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Because doing so rewrites every one of those universes. Homura who used Madoka's power has also been able to warp reality freely.

Then how is that more impressive attack potency-wise?

 

[Aurasuke]

Madoka didn't just erased the concept of witches from infinite universes. She erased the concept of witches from the past present and future evverywhere. That means that a witch who would have killed people doesn't, and girls who became magical girls to fight the concept of witches would never have needed to become them. That violates the laws of casuality (it's like a witch kills your friend, you become a magical girl to kill that witch. You kill that witch but then after 100 years you become a witch and kill someone else. Basically if that witch never killed your friend you would never have chosen to become a magical girl and never chosen to become a magical girl and you would have never become a witch in the first place.

So is it more impressive to warp a planet out of existence or planet or destroy it with sheer force?

Madoka violates the laws of casuality, and can reality warp on that level of scale even killing her future self that becomes a witch.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Madoka didn't just erased the concept of witches from infinite universes. She erased the concept of witches from the past present and future evverywhere. That means that a witch who would have killed people doesn't, and girls who became magical girls to fight the concept of witches would never have needed to become them. That violates the laws of casuality (it's like a witch kills your friend, you become a magical girl to kill that witch. You kill that witch but then after 100 years you become a witch and kill someone else. Basically if that witch never killed your friend you would never have chosen to become a magical girl and never chosen to become a magical girl and you would have never become a witch in the first place.
So is it more impressive to warp a planet out of existence or planet or destroy it with sheer force?

Madoka violates the laws of casuality, and can reality warp on that level of scale even killing her future self that becomes a witch.

Still. I will question again. How is that more impressive attack potency-wise? How is warp reality an equivalent to erase it entirely?


Also. Madoka didn't destroy the concept of Witch. She just wished that no magical girl would turn into a witch. If Madoka "really" destroyed the concept of Witch then how would the third movie make sense?

 

[Drac32Drac]

In my opinion, that depends on how far up the tiers the law of causality itself exists at. Once you reach universe level, concepts start to get a little fuzzy. If that law exists at universe level and not multiverse or higher level, then no... it wouldn't be more impressive than utterly destroying said universe. By the feat's quantity, though, Madoka is ahead.

 

[Aurasuke]

Well multiverse in this wikia is just defined by 10^500 universes though. Think your confusing multiverse with "higher dimension hyperverses for example a 7 dimensional universe is larger than a 6 dimensional one, just like a 3d cube is larger than 2d square).

2-B: Multiverse level
Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to 10^500 universal space-time continuums. 10^500 is the scientifically theorized number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums within our own multiverse.

This is Chara's level

2-A: Multiverse level+
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create a finite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums that is equal or greater than 10^500.
• High Multiverse level+: Characters who can instantly destroy or create an infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. This category also includes 5-dimensional characters.

Because Madoka does not affect 1 universe but infinite universes, she is High Multiverse level +, essentially all universes she affected were rewritten completely thanks to her. (It's like saying gravity dissapeared from the beggining of time, then stars would never form and no life would exist anywhere because no stars formed)