Madoka Kaname (PMMM) VS Asriel Dreemurr (Undertale)

[Blahblah9755]

She *cough excuse me, you do know that the magical girls she saved were through

a-cinematic time (so you can't even say how long it took her)

b-from entirely different time periods (Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, etc)

c-after she rewrote the inifinite multiverse, she began doing the same thing through every multiverse and know consider that its an infinite multiverse (meaning that she has to the same thing several times at the same time which is a feat of nigh omniprescence)

But if she were omnipresent her arrow would have simply appeared there, and not have needed to be shot. Being in multiple places at once can be as low as infinite speed, even an immeasurable being can be in multiple universes doing the same thing at once, since they're beyond time itself they could go to infinite universes and reset them one by one if they really wanted to

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thanks, but now that brings a probelm, why didn't Chara (assuming this is chara) kill everyone in an instant?

If this is Asriel... well continue along your marry way lol

Chara did kill everyone in an instant, though. That's the end of the genocide route. If you mean from the very beginning, it's explained because they're a psychotic murderer who wants to kill everyone they can up close and personal. They even mention this at the end of the game.

 

[SomebodyData]

If you want the real answer, it's because the directors felt that we needed another sequel and decided to give Homura God powers for no reason. Other than that, I would theorize Madoka wanted her to take her. If you think about it does make sense in a way. Homura allowed all the magical girls a second chance at life as normal humans. Is that really so evil that madoka would reject it? Madoka was given the chance to live ordinarily. She may say that she didn't want Homura to do that but can you say that she really would reject her best friend? She clearly didn't do anything to stop her so we can only conclude that either Homura gained instant God Powers, or Madoka allowed her to use her powers to rewrite reality.

Aura I got to stop you buddy...

Theres no PIS involved, its the Isolation Zone, it was still in affect as shown by the floating kyubey eyes still being active, and the other magical girls being able to see her, only difference is that theres a hole

 

[Aurasuke]

She *cough excuse me, you do know that the magical girls she saved were through
a-cinematic time (so you can't even say how long it took her)

b-from entirely different time periods (Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, etc)

c-after she rewrote the inifinite multiverse, she began doing the same thing through every multiverse and know consider that its an infinite multiverse (meaning that she has to the same thing several times at the same time which is a feat of nigh omniprescence)

But if she were omnipresent her arrow would have simply appeared there, and not have needed to be shot.
Being in multiple places at once can be as low as infinite speed, even an immeasurable being can be in multiple universes doing the same thing at once, since they're beyond time itself they could go to infinite universes and reset them one by one if they really wanted to

You seem to forget the rule of fiction and dramatic value. Why does Demonbane look three dimensional if they could just warp everything out of reality and are supposedly beyond dimensional space. It's because in fiction entertainment value> accurate story telling.

Madoka has been shown to exist in all timelines, and save all magical girls. If your actually measuring the speed that it needs to be shot then I could turn the tables on you by asking why does the living tribunal even need a hand? He's 16 dimensions, he doesn't need a hand to hold a universe. An argument like this just doesn't hold in fiction.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is my response for outside of the game: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

Is there any reason why you didn't write Omnipresent for both then when you made the profiles? You're kind of asking to contradict the profile that you made, by telling us that she's omnipresent.

Reality-Fiction Interaction has literally nothing to do with this. Existing everywhere within a reality and even outside its boundaries is completely unrelated to R-F interaction.

Because I rarely ever use Omnipresent for things that aren't truly omnipresent, because it simply brings up problems like this? lol For instance, a 6-D immeasurable being still blitzkills Madoka, but a 4-D immeasurable being gets blitzkilled by Madoka.

 

[Aurasuke]

If you want the real answer, it's because the directors felt that we needed another sequel and decided to give Homura God powers for no reason. Other than that, I would theorize Madoka wanted her to take her. If you think about it does make sense in a way. Homura allowed all the magical girls a second chance at life as normal humans. Is that really so evil that madoka would reject it? Madoka was given the chance to live ordinarily. She may say that she didn't want Homura to do that but can you say that she really would reject her best friend? She clearly didn't do anything to stop her so we can only conclude that either Homura gained instant God Powers, or Madoka allowed her to use her powers to rewrite reality.

Aura I got to stop you buddy...
Theres no PIS involved, its the Isolation Zone, it was still in affect as shown by the floating kyubey eyes still being active, and the other magical girls being able to see her, only difference is that theres a hole

Well SomebodyData is actually someone who has seen more Madoka and researched it more than I have. (I haven't read the mangas yet) His word is probably better than mine in this. But yes it's the isolation field which makes them nigh-omni not because Homura tagged her.

 

[Aurasuke]

This is my response for outside of the game: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

Is there any reason why you didn't write Omnipresent for both then when you made the profiles? You're kind of asking to contradict the profile that you made, by telling us that she's omnipresent.

Reality-Fiction Interaction has literally nothing to do with this. Existing everywhere within a reality and even outside its boundaries is completely unrelated to R-F interaction.
Because I rarely ever use Omnipresent for things that aren't truly omnipresent, because it simply brings up problems like this? lol For instance, a 6-D immeasurable being still blitzkills Madoka, but a 4-D immeasurable being gets blitzkilled by Madoka.

Basicaly saying that being outside the game isn't a feat. They can't be outside the game because that breaks the 4th wall. The most he can be is inside the game even if they say they are out of the game. (It's kind of like the Lord of Nightmares beats his author with a shovel example).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Basicaly saying that being outside the game isn't a feat. They can't be outside the game because that breaks the 4th wall. The most he can be is inside the game even if they say they are out of the game. (It's kind of like the Lord of Nightmares beats his author with a shovel example).

You don't seem to know what the "game" is, because you haven't played Undertale. The "game" is merely the Undertale reality. Beyond the "game" isn't the real world. It's simply a void, which Chara still exists in.

Also, LoN is a "she" (or at least that's its preferred appearance).

 

[SomebodyData]

Well SomebodyData is actually someone who has seen more Madoka and researched it more than I have. (I haven't read the mangas yet) His word is probably better than mine in this. But yes it's the isolation field which makes them nigh-omni not because Homura tagged her.

Actually the zone makes her overall rating as nigh omniprescent here

The zone's effects made her normal

 

[Aurasuke]

This is my response for outside of the game: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

Is there any reason why you didn't write Omnipresent for both then when you made the profiles? You're kind of asking to contradict the profile that you made, by telling us that she's omnipresent.

Reality-Fiction Interaction has literally nothing to do with this. Existing everywhere within a reality and even outside its boundaries is completely unrelated to R-F interaction.
Because I rarely ever use Omnipresent for things that aren't truly omnipresent, because it simply brings up problems like this? lol For instance, a 6-D immeasurable being still blitzkills Madoka, but a 4-D immeasurable being gets blitzkilled by Madoka.

Exactly, but they are basically of the same dimensions. Sure Omnipresnt in 1 dimensions does not mean omnipresent in another, but they are in the same dimensions which means speed should be considered as if they were on level terms. If Asriel was tier Low 1-C then sure he would automatically be faster, but he isn't.

Also in the case with Madoka there's actual feats, while with Asriel and Frisk/Chara, it's stated but clearly it's not quite as simple as that because just try imagine playing a game where you're teleporting everywhere infinite times per second. That's why they are only reasonable immeasurable within their dimension.

 

[Blahblah9755]

She *cough excuse me, you do know that the magical girls she saved were through
a-cinematic time (so you can't even say how long it took her)

b-from entirely different time periods (Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, etc)

c-after she rewrote the inifinite multiverse, she began doing the same thing through every multiverse and know consider that its an infinite multiverse (meaning that she has to the same thing several times at the same time which is a feat of nigh omniprescence)

But if she were omnipresent her arrow would have simply appeared there, and not have needed to be shot.
Being in multiple places at once can be as low as infinite speed, even an immeasurable being can be in multiple universes doing the same thing at once, since they're beyond time itself they could go to infinite universes and reset them one by one if they really wanted to

You seem to forget the rule of fiction and dramatic value. Why does Demonbane look three dimensional if they could just warp everything out of reality and are supposedly beyond dimensional space. It's because in fiction entertainment value> accurate story telling.

Madoka has been shown to exist in all timelines, and save all magical girls. If your actually measuring the speed that it needs to be shot then I could turn the tables on you by asking why does the living tribunal even need a hand? He's 16 dimensions, he doesn't need a hand to hold a universe. An argument like this just doesn't hold in fiction.

I'm just pointing out that Madoka doesn't actually have feats just the fact that she's a concept in all timelines backing her omnipresence, same as Chara

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Exactly, but they are basically of the same dimensions. Sure Omnipresnt in 1 dimensions does not mean omnipresent in another, but they are in the same dimensions which means speed should be considered as if they were on level terms. If Asriel was tier Low 1-C then sure he would automatically be faster, but he isn't.

Also in the case with Madoka there's actual feats, while with Asriel and Frisk/Chara, it's stated but clearly it's not quite as simple as that because just try imagine playing a game where you're teleporting everywhere infinite times per second. That's why they are only reasonable immeasurable within their dimension.

You are really grasping at straws here, man. I've already pointed out why, by the standards you apply to Madoka, Asriel and Chara are also omnipresent on their level of existence. "Feats" don't mean everything. Shub-Niggurath doesn't have feats, but that doesn't stop her from ROFLcurbstomping some of the most feat-heavy verses.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm just pointing out that Madoka doesn't actually have feats just the fact that she's a concept in all timelines backing her omnipresence, same as Chara

obviously you did not read my comment

 

[Aurasuke]

Basicaly saying that being outside the game isn't a feat. They can't be outside the game because that breaks the 4th wall. The most he can be is inside the game even if they say they are out of the game. (It's kind of like the Lord of Nightmares beats his author with a shovel example).

You don't seem to know what the "game" is, because you haven't played Undertale. The "game" is merely the Undertale reality. Beyond the "game" isn't the real world. It's simply a void, which Chara still exists in.
Also, LoN is a "she" (or at least that's its preferred appearance).

In that case, the outside the game is considered a void then. But still, clearly they are an avatar that is controlled by the player and has a quantifiable speed in that higher dimensions (we may not be able to measure it if we assume it's a higher dimensional space but it's still quantifiable, as oppose to omnipresent) (Which Madoka has feats for, in both real space and conceptual space).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In that case, the outside the game is considered a void then. But still, clearly they are an avatar that is controlled by the player and has a quantifiable speed in that higher dimensions (we may not be able to measure it if we assume it's a higher dimensional space but it's still quantifiable, as oppose to omnipresent) (Which Madoka has feats for, in both real space and conceptual space).

Um, no? Frisk is the avatar of the player. Chara is not. Chara even overpowers the player at the end of the genocide run. Many of these points could be addressed by simply playing the game or watching a playthrough, because you seem to be misinterpreting many things, here.

 

[Blahblah9755]

obviously you did not read my comment

I read your comment, it was denying my counter example, not listing a feat that was more than immeasurable

 

[Aurasuke]

Exactly, but they are basically of the same dimensions. Sure Omnipresnt in 1 dimensions does not mean omnipresent in another, but they are in the same dimensions which means speed should be considered as if they were on level terms. If Asriel was tier Low 1-C then sure he would automatically be faster, but he isn't.

Also in the case with Madoka there's actual feats, while with Asriel and Frisk/Chara, it's stated but clearly it's not quite as simple as that because just try imagine playing a game where you're teleporting everywhere infinite times per second. That's why they are only reasonable immeasurable within their dimension.

You are really grasping at straws here, man. I've already pointed out why, by the standards you apply to Madoka, Asriel and Chara are also omnipresent on their level of existence. "Feats" don't mean everything. Shub-Niggurath doesn't have feats, but that doesn't stop her from ROFLcurbstomping some of the most feat-heavy verses.

Madoka is also omnipresent in higher levels of existence also. If you've watched the end of Madoka Magicia she and Sayaka can dissapear and reappear at will in any space, even the conceptual space that they are shown in that doesn't exist apart of the real world. (They have tea with Mami there who is supposedly dead yet knows everything that happened even after she died, so the space is actually beyond space time)

Saying that Madoka isn't as fast because she isn't omnipresent in a higher space isn't true. She was shown to be omnipresent when time and space didn't exist as well.

However Asriel is only immeasurable outside space time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

However Asriel is only immeasurable outside space time.

This is wrong, and I've already explained why. By the exact same logic you're using for Madoka, Asriel and Chara are omnipresent. If omnipresence is your only argument for Madoka's victory, then it's a pretty flimsy argument for reasons I've already stated.

 

[SomebodyData]

I read your comment, it was denying my counter example, not listing a feat that was more than immeasurable

Immeasurable: Being able to move outside of linear time

Omniprescence: Being able to be everywhere through time and space

Correct me if I'm wrong with these definitions but LINEAR time is different

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Still. That would mean that her omnipresence is limited to space and does not apply to time at the very least.

I think you're reffering to Homura, Madoka has already been stated and shown to exist in all timelines, everywhere even in conceptual space that doesn't actually exist (the space where she, Sayaka and Nagisa and all the erased witches went to after she carried them away and "saved' them).
Homura is scaled to Madoka and shown to be omnipresent in the new reality she made herself.

No. In fact i was talking about Madoka. When Homura stop her and steal part of the Law of Cycles Madoka is seen screaming and in panic. Showing that she wasn't expecting that. If she was aware of that then that reaction doesn't make sense.

 

[SomebodyData]

This is wrong, and I've already explained why. By the exact same logic you're using for Madoka, Asriel and Chara are omnipresent. If omnipresence is your only argument for Madoka's victory, then it's a pretty flimsy argument for reasons I've already stated.

Hey doesn't Undyne pose a threat to Chara? Wouldn't that mean that shes also omniprescent? We'll need an upgrade I guess for her too

 

[SomebodyData]

No. In fact i was talking about Madoka. When Homura stop her and steal part of the Law of Cycles Madoka is seen screaming and in panic. Showing that she wasn't expecting that. If she was aware of that then that reaction doesn't make sense.

You seem to be forgetting about the fact that she was in the isolation zone

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hey doesn't Undyne pose a threat to Chara? Wouldn't that mean that shes also omniprescent? We'll need an upgrade I guess for her too

No, Undyne only poses a threat to Chara while using Frisk as a vessel, which is not on the same level of speed as hitting conceptual Chara, themself.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

This is wrong, and I've already explained why. By the exact same logic you're using for Madoka, Asriel and Chara are omnipresent. If omnipresence is your only argument for Madoka's victory, then it's a pretty flimsy argument for reasons I've already stated.

Hey doesn't Undyne pose a threat to Chara? Wouldn't that mean that shes also omniprescent? We'll need an upgrade I guess for her too

Both Undyne and Sans pose a threat to Chara. Sans in fact (Semi-canonically but hey) took Chara by surprise the first time. Although i think that Chara is only considered a concept when its at her absolute state.

EDIT: Nevermind. Azathoth already answered that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hey doesn't Undyne pose a threat to Chara? Wouldn't that mean that shes also omniprescent? We'll need an upgrade I guess for her too

No, Undyne only poses a threat to Chara while using Frisk as a vessel, which is not on the same level of speed as hitting conceptual Chara, themself.

Ah really? dang shes my favorite too ;_;

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ah really? dang shes my favorite too ;_;

Omnipresent boulder suplexing would be incredible.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Immeasurable: Being able to move outside of linear time

Omniprescence: Being able to be everywhere through time and space

Correct me if I'm wrong with these definitions but LINEAR time is different

If you can move outside of linear time it's possible to travel to infinite multiverses in any amount of linear time, since Madoka is immortal she has time on a second dimension of time to perform these events, meaning she could travel to infinite universes if she wanted to, without necessarily being omnipresent, once again I'm not trying to say she isn't omnipresent, just that she has no feats of it besides being a concept present throughout the multiverse which Chara also has

 

[Aurasuke]

However Asriel is only immeasurable outside space time.

This is wrong, and I've already explained why. By the exact same logic you're using for Madoka, Asriel and Chara are omnipresent. If omnipresence is your only argument for Madoka's victory, then it's a pretty flimsy argument for reasons I've already stated.

Okay then, then can Chara walk back in time (time in higher dimensions, because even though you exist in a higher dimension, there is still time connnecting one place to another, so not just any time, but time in higher dimensions)/Madoka can do this freely basically such as the time when she and Sayaka attend the Pianao recital of the boy Sayak liked even though sayaka was erased, what they saw occurs outside the realms of time because it's not even one of the possibilities that could had happened in normal time, it was basically conceptual space where beings that were non-existent/beyond existence had gone. Basically they are omnipresent in areas beyond space time as well, in the past, present, and future of a higher dimensional time.

Can she walk forward in time as much a she want to the end of "higher dimensional time"

When I refer to time here, it's not normal space time, it's time in higher dimensions, like how in Umineko the witches who gathered were able to talk like normal beings despite being at least 15 dimensional. They are well above time yet there is a higher level fo time within that dimension.

If she is able to be omnipresent through higher dimensional time Asriel included then perhaps it would be inconclusive. I'm just going by what the profiles state about their speed tiers, and just like how Hypersonic > supersonic, nigh-omnipresent>immeasurable, but you seem to have reasons for why they really the same.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay then, then can Chara walk back in time (time in higher dimensions, because even though you exist in a higher dimension, there is still time connnecting one place to another, so not just any time, but time in higher dimensions)/Madoka can do this freely basically such as the time when she and Sayaka attend the Pianao recital of the boy Sayak liked even though sayaka was erased, what they saw occurs outside the realms of time because it's not even one of the possibilities that could had happened in normal time, it was basically conceptual space where beings that were non-existent/beyond existence had gone. Basically they are omnipresent in areas beyond space time as well, in the past, present, and future of a higher dimensional time.

Can she walk forward in time as much a she want to the end of "higher dimensional time"

When I refer to time here, it's not normal space time, it's time in higher dimensions, like how in Umineko the witches who gathered were able to talk like normal beings despite being at least 15 dimensional. They are well above time yet there is a higher level fo time within that dimension.

If she is able to be omnipresent through higher dimensional time Asriel included then perhaps it would be inconclusive. I'm just going by what the profiles state about their speed tiers, and just like how Hypersonic > supersonic, nigh-omnipresent>immeasurable, but you seem to have reasons for why they really the same.

Chara is everywhere in all time and space, all throughout the multiverse. They are also everywhere in said higher dimensional void which exists beyond the multiverse.

Asriel > Chara.

Like I said, literally the only reason the two aren't (nigh-)omnipresent is because I rarely use it, but if that's such a huge factor here I can just change it, because the reasoning is the same.

 

[Aurasuke]

Immeasurable: Being able to move outside of linear time
Omniprescence: Being able to be everywhere through time and space

Correct me if I'm wrong with these definitions but LINEAR time is different

If you can move outside of linear time it's possible to travel to infinite multiverses in any amount of linear time, since Madoka is immortal she has time on a second dimension of time to perform these events, meaning she could travel to infinite universes if she wanted to, without necessarily being omnipresent, once again I'm not trying to say she isn't omnipresent, just that she has no feats of it besides being a concept present throughout the multiverse which Chara also has
She isn't a omnipresnt because she's a concept, she's omnipresent because she's a Goddess. She isn't immortal, she killed her future self as a witch. She did everything instantly not gradually, no one even notices her, she isn't even detectable by the Kyuubi. No one even knows of her existence. If you watched the last episode it's obvious. She's also been shown to dissapear and reappear in conceptual dimensions.

 

[Aurasuke]

Chara is everywhere in all time and space, all throughout the multiverse. They are also everywhere in said higher dimensional void which exists beyond the multiverse.

Asriel > Chara.

Like I said, literally the only reason the two aren't (nigh-)omnipresent is because I rarely use it, but if that's such a huge factor here I can just change it, because the reasoning is the same.

Does it say explicitly anywhere that she's omnipresent though? Is there a source for this?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Why would it need to explicitly say "Chara is omnipresent"? Showing that they exist EVERYWHERE in and out of all possible timelines isn't enough?

 

[SomebodyData]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

TopKek

 

[NotEvenHuman]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

Honestly suprised it took this long for someone to point this out.

 

[Tzula]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Aurasuke]

1. Not a real battle if speed is equalized

Flash vs Accelerator speed equalize go!

Lol anyway,

Why would it need to explicitly say "Chara is omnipresent"? Showing that they exist EVERYWHERE in and out of all possible timelines isn't enough?

So how exactly is it shown that she's everywhere though? Where does it say that she's everwhere in and out all possible timelines?

 

[Aurasuke]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

They probably added it after lol.

Either way if we equalize speed we're back to the indeterminant forms of calculus thing again.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So how exactly is it shown that she's everywhere though? Where does it say that she's everwhere in and out all possible timelines?

Chara is shown to exist in all timelines. Following a genocide run, the player will be able to see there's no escape from them. Chara is always there, and Chara is even there in the empty void when everything is gone. Chara is everywhere, regardless of if it's the past, present, or future, even in the empty void beyond time and space. Seems like evidence for Nigh-omnipresence to omnipresence, to me.

 

[SomebodyData]

That #Akward Moment when the op says that speed is equialized

They probably added it after lol.
Either way if we equalize speed we're back to the indeterminant forms of calculus thing again.

u see to forget about hax