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Lucifer revision

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SpiritofVengeance01

SpiritofVengeance01

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There are some wrong information on Lucifer's page.

1. "Transduality (Transcends The Endless and creation)"

Concepts that The Endless represents are much older than Lucifer.

Yahweh admitted that he was shaped by dreams (Confirmed by Mike Carey).

Death claimed creations and beings that are older than Lucifer, like Sikman's creation which is older than the current one .

Though he should have transduality for transcending creation.

2. "Creation and Existence Erasure (Created The Endless as a side-effect of shaping creation, and can destroy them should he wish)"

He didn't create The Endless. For example, Destiny is a side-effect of the Yahweh's deterministic approach on creation . Also, pepole can dream and die because of Father Time and Mother Night .

But he should have these abilities, as he can erase Ramiel from existence and created intelligent life forms .

3. Immunity to Fate Manipulation (Exists outside of Destiny himself and even burned Destiny's book)"

Destiny's book based on the script written by Yahweh and this script contains even Lucifer and Michael.

Also Yahweh isn't above than Mother Night, it's a headcanon.

Yahweh's creation is just one of the version of creation and he isn't the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers. Mother Night and Father Time predates and are the cause of all versions of creation. Also, Yahweh was shaped by dreams , while Mother Night predates this concept.
 
All of these has already been discussed before. I just got too busy to edit the profile
 
Okay. Would you be willing to handle it now?
 
Also, are you going to be active in the wiki again? If so, do you want your staff position returned?
 
Here is the justification: Social Influencing (Repeatedly charms his way out of trouble. Convinced an assassin to spare him, tell him her employer's plans, and let him kill her instead. The Japanese pantheon stated that the assassin should have killed him before he opened his mouth.)
 
@LordUrien935

That is probably fine, but the current Lucifer series is of unclear canonicity.

@TUW1

I do not know. I think so, but it likely depends on the interpretation of different writers.
 
Yahweh being formed by dreams, it's just something very fundamental, it's not limited to dreams.

Time, does not precede creation, it is the beginning of creation. This fits well into the "when God made the universe, the endless were born as side-effect" This applies to Time itself.
 
Lucifer should still be capable of erasing the Endless from existence, right? Dream is terrified of him, Death was intimidated by him, and Destiny says he could do it if he wanted to. His existence erasure justification right now is still valid
 
Father Time precedes Creation in Vertigo. There were no Creations until Father Time and Mother Time met. Also, The Endless have many EARLIER VERSIONS. The Endless existed before Creation, or atleast a version of them did.They die at the end of existence but will be "recreated" again once a new Creation arose.
 
LordUrien935 said:
Lucifer should still be capable of erasing the Endless from existence, right? Dream is terrified of him, Death was intimidated by him, and Destiny says he could do it if he wanted to. His existence erasure justification right now is still valid
Click to expand...
He didnt say anything like that though. The closest thing to that is threatening to kill Dream and Death. And no Destiny didnt say anything like that
 
@Sandman31 at no point is this said, it is said that Time is the beginning of the universe (creation), at no time says that it precedes the beginning of the universe.
 
Antvasima said:
@Sandman31
So what should we do here?
Click to expand...
their concepts are not older than Lucifer. Destiny comes when a beings is born he has a destiny. Death was born when the first breath of life comes. Dream comes when something first began to imangine. Destruction came when the first things went violent. Desire came when something wanted to have it Despair came when something felt bad. Delirium/Delight came when complexity/fortitude came. As each concepts was really born when its concepts was. The endless are not representing something like eternity or infinty which is time and space. The endless are the concept howver Lucifer and Michael are the defintion of Power and Will The Power created everything from the nothingness and The will shaped it all. Plus Mother Night and Father Time are still not superior to Lucifer or Michael even if the endless are older(they´re not) they still are weaker and plus The DC Demurgic Archangels pre-date creation the Endless came as side affect of Creation. The angels dnt techinally count as life or life form. There just essence without shape Michael being the Spark the expands forever. Lucifer being the Light that shines where God tells it to shine. When Yahweh said dream shaped him it cleary means his form that has chosen were shaped by human because we dreamt of the God we knew but he has always existed hence no begnging and end.
 
Alonik said:
Yahweh being formed by dreams, it's just something very fundamental, it's not limited to dreams.
Time, does not precede creation, it is the beginning of creation. This fits well into the "when God made the universe, the endless were born as side-effect" This applies to Time itself.
Click to expand...
Time and Night came into being when the first iteration of Creation was made. There are multiple version of Creations. Cestis came from a Creation older than Yahweh itself, same with the Silk Man. Lucifer even said that there are Creations before Yahweh's and there will be other Creation after his. The Jin En Mok Berim also said that there are other Creators that came before Yahweh and Yahweh will not be the last.

There are many versions of Creation. Each with its diffrent maker. The only thing thats constant in these Creations is not Yahweh or the angels but the Endless and their parents. The Endless dies when a version of Creation ends but they will be reborn again into the next version of Creation. The only exception to this seems to be only Death as Delirium said that she will be the only Endless that will survive till the next version of the universe. Yes, they were created as a side effect of Yahweh's Creation but you have to remember that the Endless existed before that, they were only recreated in Yahweh's Creation. Proof of this is Silk Man,a being not created by God and existed before Yahweh's Creation is trying to escape Death and Lucifer even saying that Death is inevitable.

Also, the Endless only coming to existence after the first lfe forms came into being is false. In fact even without all the stuff from above, Destiny still predates Creation. Destiny was already tracking the Word before it was even spoken aloud by the Voice, which is before the existence of everything.
 
Sandman31 said:
snip
Click to expand...
Time and night came with the current creation, the current universe, and not those before that of the presence. That's what overture says.

The Silk-man example is only reinforcing death, which is the only one of endless that is inevitable, and may exist in any creation ever established by Destruction. Also, in the same scan is said:

It's futile to say which came before or after, so this in the future or previous creation in that in specific is irrelevant.

Destiny as the word is not an endless, it's just the word, it was a different and higher being than as endless.
 
Time and night came with the current creation, the current universe, and not those before that of the presence. That's what overture says.

Overture said that the coming together of Time and Night made the universe possible. All versions of it.

Overture also said that dreams only became possible because of Night and Time. Which is huge because of how Vertigo cosmology works

The Silk-man example is only reinforcing death, which is the only one of endless that is inevitable, and may exist in any creation ever established by Destruction. Also, in the same scan is said:

It's futile to say which came before or after, so this in the future or previous creation in that in specific is irrelevant.

They're in the Void which is why it doesnt matter. That statement is only highlighting the fact that the void is timeless and the past, future and present mesh together in that realm. Silk Man's Creation existed before Yahweh's, its just that talking about linearity is useless when youre in a realm when there is no linearity.

Also, its not Destruction who said that. Destruction said that the Endless will die at the end of this version of Creation and Delirium responded "except for our sister"

Its also implies that the Endless existed before, but unlike Death, they dont outlive their version of Creation.

This isnt even something new. We already know that Dream existed before the current version of Creation as shown in the Dreams of a Thousand Cats

Destiny as the word is not an endless, it's just the word, it was a different and higher being than as endless.

Dont know what you're saying here

Destiny was already tracking the word even before it existed, he existed even before the voice spoke anything. I did not say that Destiny is the word or anything of that sort

This would make sense if you remember that The Book of Destiny is The Script aka The Plan
 
Sandman31 said:
I agree with everything here, I'm pretty sure some of this came from previous already concluded threads.
Click to expand...
Would you be willing to apply these changes then? I can unlock pages for you if you list their exact titles.
 
@Sandman31

I would appreciate your help with this.
 
There is an argument to be made that Lucifer should keep his Immunity to Fate Manipulation, considering the driving conflict in the story is his determination to escape Yahweh's plan, which is explicitly expressed via Destiny and his book. He achieves this goal by the end, and he heavily implies earlier in the story that his own creation has no Destiny by his own desig. From a certain perspective, it appears as though he is only tied to his father's fate manipulation when operating within his creation. Though I agree that burning Destiny's book should be removed from the profile, as that was not a display of Immunity to Fate. It was quite the opposite.

Everything else is probably fine though. I can add the necessary changes if you unlock the pages.
 
The question about Lucifer is no that he managed to get out of Yahweh's plan because he wanted to, but because the plan of Yahweh was over, in the end of the arc of the nagflar, Yahweh abndons his own plan and leaves everything in the hand of free will of his creation. So much so that Michael needed to sustain creation for all angels and him to not be erased from existence, by yahweh's lack.

In his quote for Destiny, there is a metaphor of ego, we should not only consider Lucifer's speech, but also that of Destiny that said Lucifer's creation is only a "asylum" of the main creation.

And this Lucifer's phrase about the endless being "deterministic approach to the act of creation" should be used even against him, since we see death and Basanos functioning as ideas within Lucifer's own creation, which he fundamentally through speech has forbidden in the beginning. But of course they stretch until then.
 
I agree that the situation is complicated, which is why I phrased the initial point with a certain level of caution, but I don't think it should be considered as simple as "Yahweh left, and that's the only reason Lucifer managed to escape the plan." As far as I can tell, the story is relatively unclear on how much determinism is still in effect by that point in the plot, as evidenced in the above-linked scan wherein they discuss that despite Yahweh's absence and the threat it poses , creation is destined to survive because if it were not, Destiny would be near the end of his book. It is also further mentioned that the script in the book is set to soon change, foreshadowing how Michael's rewrites creation not long after. The story is exploring the concept of how far determinism goes, and it's supposed to leave the reader a little unsure at this juncture.

But while I agree that the situation is not straight forward, your interpretation of Destiny's conversation with Lucifer is very clearly off-point. Destiny labeling of Lucifer's creation an "asylum" is not indicative of it being some lesser aspect of Yahweh's creation. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that. In fact, the narrative goes through repeated pains to emphasize that Lucifer's creation is of the same scope as Yahweh's earlier on. Destiny and Lucifer are making analogies here. Lucifer asserts that his father's creation is analogous to a "prison" since it is build on cause and effect, creating Destiny as a byproduct. Thus, the creatures within Yahweh's creation are bound to fate and determinism, forced upon a singular path (like prisoners in a prison). Destiny responds to this criticism by saying that "a prison" (Yaweh's creation) is preferable to "an asylum" (Lucifer's creation). He is acknowleding Lucifer's point but also making it clear that he considers a creation without Destiny (Lucifer's creation) to be wild, unpredictable, and lacking in any manner of control (like an asylum). It's a direct rebuttal to Lucifer's critique, not any sort of assertion that Lucifer's creation is structurally inferior to or dependant upon Yaweh's creation.
 
On the issue of surviving creation has nothing to do with Michael "rewriting" the creation, he was just rewriting her livelihood. The reason to be destined to survive, is that Elaine and Lucifer survived Berim's plot causing a plottwist in them.

It's not out of context, it's just bringing contexts before to the fore. Chapters before that it is said that Lucifer's Creation is only a realm inside the true creation, which with yahweh's departure from creation this realm could be separated from the main creation (Destiny), And that's what Destiny was talking about.
 
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