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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Tyranno223 said:
For the record this is probably going to be a slow process, since I not only already lost my original draft which covered information upto the Maiar, but also because my passion for this project wavers from time to time.
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No problem fam, take your time. I was also making very good progress on translating my LOTR RTs but a wiki bug prevented me from posting. I'm still a bit bummed by that.
 
What Tyranno suggested can probably be applied then.

Also, one of you can start a private message LOTR thread to which all the members you wish to help you out can be invited.


I am not knowledgeable enough myself to be of much help though.
 
Who else is currently able to help with this topic? I know Eliminator was working on some info, but I'm not sure who else.

Plus there's still the initial downgrade topic outside of the current revisions.
 
I mentioned this before but I want to reiterate.

So, when the Valar saw Eä, they saw "wheels of fire" and "innumerable stars" the latter is self-explanatory whilst the former most likely in reference to Galaxies. It's said that it took many ages to create the universe, and Tolkien says this:


"The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä (the material universe)."

Crazy knowing that this is the kind of power they are implied to possess despite the entire story playing out on earth, and whilst it seems small with this context, the Silmarillion does address this saying that the actions on Arda are just as important as the shaping of Eä.


Morgoth's Ring also gives more detail with how Morgoth corrupted the Sun and Arda and the entire solar system, and he either tore off a chunk of the Earth that made the Moon or the Valar did. This wasn't in the Silmarillion and it was just an idea Tolkien had but I still feel it should be mentioned since Tolkien himself still wrote it.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
I mentioned this before but I want to reiterate.

So, when the Valar saw Eä, they saw "wheels of fire" and "innumerable stars" the latter is self-explanatory whilst the former most likely in reference to Galaxies. It's said that it took many ages to create the universe, and Tolkien says this:

"The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä (the material universe)."

Crazy knowing that this is the kind of power they are implied to possess despite the entire story playing out on earth, and whilst it seems small with this context, the Silmarillion does address this saying that the actions on Arda are just as important as the shaping of Eä.
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Thank you for helping out. This seems fine to add to me.
 
For the record, I might delay any additions on my end until I get a copy of the upcoming NOME. New significant additions seems to be being made.
 
Hellbeast said:
Isn't Morgoth's Ring an earlier version of what Tolkien was writing?
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From what I remember, parts of it were earlier versions of what was used in the Silmarillion, etc, whilst other parts explained details around the era.

A pdf can be found online, and you can message me if you want to know where to find one.
 
Should Aragorn be stronger for chasing away the Nazgul? I know that Nazgul are listed at unknown but Glorfindel, an Elf that killed a Balrog and when he was reincarnated was almost as strong as a Maiar, said he couldn't beat them all together.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Should Aragorn be stronger for chasing away the Nazgul? I know that Nazgul are listed at unknown but Glorfindel, an Elf that killed a Balrog and when he was reincarnated was almost as strong as a Maiar, said he couldn't beat them all together.
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Oct. 6. Frodo reaches Weathertop observed by the Nazgul. Aragorn sees [three Riders] coming back from a patrol of the Road west of Weathertop.
The camp is attacked at night by [five Riders]; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. [The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two.
It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.
Oct. 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew[the other four] back to him. He then patrols the Road to the Bridgeof Mitheithel, knowing that it was practically impossible to cross the Grey-flood between Thatbad and the Bridge (while [the four Riders who pursued Gandalf] are away north along the upper river). The Nazgul search in vain for the Bearer while Aragorn leads Frodo in the pathless lands south of the Road.
~"The Hunt for the Ring" (Emphasis Tolkien's).
 
Thank you both for helping out. I appreciate it.
 
Decided to do a rough tier list, I'm missing several characters but still enough to get a good idea of the verse scaling.

Eru
Melkor (Ainur)
Rest of Ainur
Ungoliant (Post trees devoured)
Melkor/Morgoth (Valar)
Manwë
Varda
Tulkas
Ulmo
Rest of Valar

After this things get a bit tricky, Sauron is stated to be stronger than Morgoth by the end of the First Age who is still implied to be strong enough that if the Valar tried wrestling him, it would destroy Arda. The Host vs. Him according to either HOME or Book of Lost rales (Idr which) resulted in only the destruction of Beleriend.

Other Maiar aren't super well explored, but we know the Balrogs were able to defeat Ungoliant after she ate the trees. Not sure what you guys think about the debate whether there should be thousands of Balrogs or only 7 max since Tolkien himself stated that number. Either way, there is a number to quantify them. The strongest Maia are nigh equal to the Valar as well, I would say Ossë, Sauron, and Eönwë seem to be portrayed as the strongest.

Tom Bombadil is stronger than Sauron going by how he viewed the Ring, he most likely is around the Valar.

If you believe the Valar were stronger when they just entered the universe than they would be above Ungoliant even after eating the trees, only pointing this out since an argument can be made for that.

The strongest Elves seem to be around the Maiar for the most part such as Galadriel and Fingolfin.

Nazgul are supposed to be very powerful going by already mentioned statements, and there are Men such as Turin and the Men of Numenor who can hang with some of the strongest Elves such as Elendil, who fought alongside the elven king Gil-Galad, the dup giving Sauron a difficult fight. Aragorn is a direct descendant to Elendil and has Numenorean blood as well.
 
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Thank you. I think that you make sense.

Anyway, about Tom Bombadil. Do you think that he was intended to be Eru Ilúvatar's emanation/avatar on Arda?
 
Okay. Thank you for the information.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
After this things get a bit tricky, Sauron is stated to be stronger than Morgoth by the end of the First Age who is still implied to be strong enough that if the Valar tried wrestling him, it would destroy Arda. The Host vs. Him according to either HOME or Book of Lost rales (Idr which) resulted in only the destruction of Beleriend..
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This could be a Likely far higher for Sauron since we have this and him supposedly being nigh equal to the Valar.
TheMerchant66 said:
Other Maiar aren't super well explored, but we know the Balrogs were able to defeat Ungoliant after she ate the trees.
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I'd say 7 would be a good number but idk
TheMerchant66 said:
Tom Bombadil is stronger than Sauron going by how he viewed the Ring, he most likely is around the Valar.
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Tom Bombadil could probably be Unknown, he's strong but he never does anything meanigful and we don't know who he is or where he actually stands in the scaling chain.
TheMerchant66 said:
If you believe the Valar were stronger when they just entered the universe than they would be above Ungoliant even after eating the trees, only pointing this out since an argument can be made for that.
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So they diminished over time like the Elves?
TheMerchant66 said:
The strongest Elves seem to be around the Maiar for the most part such as Galadriel and Fingolfin.
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Yeah Gil-Galad helped Elendil fight Sauron and Glorfindel killed a Balrog. I'd note this is ignoring the possibility that magic might not scale to physicals for the Legendarium (you need a few requirements for that such as characters amping themselves or being stated to use the same power sources for all their abilities)
TheMerchant66 said:
Nazgul are supposed to be very powerful going by already mentioned statements, and there are Men such as Turin and the Men of Numenor who can hang with some of the strongest Elves such as Elendil, who fought alongside the elven king Gil-Galad, the dup giving Sauron a difficult fight. Aragorn is a direct descendant to Elendil and has Numenorean blood as well.
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Would Aragorn scale? He's powerful but aside from the Nazgul he doesn't have much solid scaling (I believe the Nazgul just fought Gandalf so they might be fatigued.
 
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TheMerchant66 said:
Decided to do a rough tier list, I'm missing several characters but still enough to get a good idea of the verse scaling.

Eru
Melkor (Ainur)
Rest of Ainur
Ungoliant (Post trees devoured)
Melkor/Morgoth (Valar)
Manwë
Varda
Tulkas
Ulmo
Rest of Valar

After this things get a bit tricky, Sauron is stated to be stronger than Morgoth by the end of the First Age who is still implied to be strong enough that if the Valar tried wrestling him, it would destroy Arda. The Host vs. Him according to either HOME or Book of Lost rales (Idr which) resulted in only the destruction of Beleriend.

Other Maiar aren't super well explored, but we know the Balrogs were able to defeat Ungoliant after she ate the trees. Not sure what you guys think about the debate whether there should be thousands of Balrogs or only 7 max since Tolkien himself stated that number. Either way, there is a number to quantify them. The strongest Maia are nigh equal to the Valar as well, I would say Ossë, Sauron, and Eönwë seem to be portrayed as the strongest.

Tom Bombadil is stronger than Sauron going by how he viewed the Ring, he most likely is around the Valar.

If you believe the Valar were stronger when they just entered the universe than they would be above Ungoliant even after eating the trees, only pointing this out since an argument can be made for that.

The strongest Elves seem to be around the Maiar for the most part such as Galadriel and Fingolfin.

Nazgul are supposed to be very powerful going by already mentioned statements, and there are Men such as Turin and the Men of Numenor who can hang with some of the strongest Elves such as Elendil, who fought alongside the elven king Gil-Galad, the dup giving Sauron a difficult fight. Aragorn is a direct descendant to Elendil and has Numenorean blood as well.
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Regarding Tom Bombadil, putting him in a solid tier is awkward, because we know for a fact he will fall if Sauron regains the ring, albeit as the last to fall, but like you said, the Ring has no hold over him.

Morgoth by the end of the First Age seems to be pretty pathetic compared to his past self, and he seemed to have degenerated far lower than the other Valar. Extended texts heavily implied Eonwe brought him down on his own.

The Valar have their own tier within, and whilst it wouldn't result in a major tier change, I'm planning to support an argument scaling some of the Valar as comparable to Melkor, making them a solid tier low 2C.

Personally not too sure on Osse, and Sauron as amongst the nigh-Valar tier. I think they could fit in a possibly tier, but that could potentially cause issues, and for Sauron, I'd recommend giving him seperate keys if such is agreed upon, since he and Olorin were said to be equals at first.

Regarding the whole Ainur pre vs in Arda, I'm of the opinion that there isn't actually much support for a difference in raw power, but I'll leave that for the distant future. Although having wrote that, I believe there is material stating that the Valar, and Ainur diminished over time after entering Arda, but I can't remember if that was literal loss of power, or reference to their increasing inability to act, due to circumstances.
 
For Aragorn, scaling him to Elendil is iffy, since he is a far diminished Numenorean compared to his forefathers. You could scale him to the Nazgul, but their prowess seems to vary.
 
Okay. What do the rest of you think about those suggestions?
 
We would need lots of evidence. To even qualify for High 1-B, he would need to be an infinite degrees of infinity above Low 2-C.
 
Correct. That is nowhere even near any justification.
 
Well, "At least Low 2-C" might work, since we do not have almost any information about the upper boundaries of his power in a mathematical sense.
 
While the Valar did create everything in the universe + Tolkien saying they have control over the physical matter of Eä, he also says as the world is shaped to what it is meant to be that the weaker they become.
 
Okay. That seems worth mentioning somewhere in our pages.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, "At least Low 2-C" might work, since we do not have almost any information about the upper boundaries of his power in a mathematical sense.
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I believe the old possibly 2C rating reasoning for Morgoth came from the fact he was immeasurably superior to a vast number of low 2Cs and High 3As. If that's still accepted, Eru could get the same, although it does sound a bit iffy in my personal opinion.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I believe the old possibly 2C rating reasoning for Morgoth came from the fact he was immeasurably superior to a vast number of low 2Cs and High 3As. If that's still accepted, Eru could get the same, although it does sound a bit iffy in my personal opinion.
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"At least Low 2-C" is likely enough.
 
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