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Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
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Bump, Hsharpe's proposal still needs one more staff.
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Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...
Hsharpe's proposed changes. I agreed with the intelligence changes mainly. Physical Durability Neg as well for Ainur of Greater Maiar and above levels (as they directly attack the soul). Possession and Precog Neg I agree with but I'll give them a more detailed look over once I get to them in the individual ability revisions.
Bambu, Armor, and DDM have commented here several times and helped out.
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@Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeusLord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...vsbattles.com
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...
Hsharpe's proposed changes. I agreed with the intelligence changes mainly. Durability Neg as well for Ainur of Greater Maiar and above levels. Possession and Precog Neg I agree with but I'll give them a more detailed look over once I get to them in the individual ability revisions.
Bambu, Armor, and DDM have commented here several times and helped out.
Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?
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Oh, I must have missed him. The page is currently locked so you'd have to request it to be unlocked to appropriate staff but sure.
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IIRC, that was a movie exclusive statement. He says, "No man can kill him," which then Eowyn was able to finish him off due to being a woman. In the book, it was more so that Merry stabbed him with an enchanted Barrow Blade (Which Nazguls like Witch King are vulnerable to) to null his durability in which Eowyn took advantage of this and killed him off.
Edit: Although if what I am reading about is correct, there is the ability where every weapon used against him will break regardless of whether or not it wounds or kills him. And if it fails to kill him, it will also indirectly poison the wielder with a poison even more painful than his mace.
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Yeah, any weapon that pierces him will break. However, that doesn't stop them from piercing him.
This bizarre form of anti-weaponrg isn't mentioned to apply to any other Nazgul though.
Is the intelligence and other changes fine?
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Hsharpe
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I also propose standard tactics for Morgoth and Sauron.
Sauron:
Sauron was extremely cautious in his approach to warfare, and often took centuries to plan out his invasions, even if it meant giving his enemies time to prepare defenses. His strategies often involved wars on multiple fronts and he would exploit every advantage he had to make his foes weaker. This yielded mixed results; while Sauron would often win battles, he would rarely win the actual war itself. Unlike Morgoth, Sauron is not a coward, and sometimes personally led his armies and would fight if he needed to.
Morgoth:
Morgoth was very aggressive in his style of warfare, often preferring blitzkrieg-like assault on unsuspecting foes. This led to him suffering several catastrophic defeats before he actually started to properly plan things out. But even then, his armies mostly just relied on overwhelming force and destructive power. That isn't to say it wasn't effective, Morgoth was never defeated conventionally and his defeats came as a result of the direct intervention of the Valar. Except for his duel with Fingolfin, Morgoth was almost never physically present at the war, and conducted his wars from deep within Angband. For all his power, he was still a coward.
Sauron:
Sauron was extremely cautious in his approach to warfare, and often took centuries to plan out his invasions, even if it meant giving his enemies time to prepare defenses. His strategies often involved wars on multiple fronts and he would exploit every advantage he had to make his foes weaker. This yielded mixed results; while Sauron would often win battles, he would rarely win the actual war itself. Unlike Morgoth, Sauron is not a coward, and sometimes personally led his armies and would fight if he needed to.
Morgoth:
Morgoth was very aggressive in his style of warfare, often preferring blitzkrieg-like assault on unsuspecting foes. This led to him suffering several catastrophic defeats before he actually started to properly plan things out. But even then, his armies mostly just relied on overwhelming force and destructive power. That isn't to say it wasn't effective, Morgoth was never defeated conventionally and his defeats came as a result of the direct intervention of the Valar. Except for his duel with Fingolfin, Morgoth was almost never physically present at the war, and conducted his wars from deep within Angband. For all his power, he was still a coward.
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We still need the earlier revisions to be passed first Hsharpe so hold off on adding new stuff that isn't exactly related. That being said, since this is already posted.
For Sauron, his standard battle tactics in the First Age vary. If the enemy is using magic he seems to answer with his own. If the enemy is someone with a prophesised end, he tries to fulfil the conditions. He can do both ranged and melee and frequently shapeshifts to try and gain the advantage. For the Second Age we don't get much but there's not much reason to imagine his tactics shifted drastically since he retains his abilities but somewhat stronger. He does directly lead armies a lot in this time too.
Again, not much in the Last Alliance either. We know he engaged in melee against Elendil and Gil-galad. The former dying when struck down and the latter being burned by the heat of Sauron's hand but nothing too detailed. Presumably, he'd still use all his other tactics too in the right conditions.
WotR Sauron doesn't fight in the Books so we got nothing. He does mentally combat Gandalf the White to a stalemate, loses to Aragorn in the Palantir, and far earlier dominates Saruman in the Palantir. But the latter two are specific scenarios and the former is from a very far distance.
Morgoth we got very little. Against the Valar and Maiar at the beginning of Arda, their battles were performed by massive geographical alterations like sinking mountains, raising seas, etc. Later on, he gets wrestled to submission by Tulkas implying an attempted or forced melee. He also fights Ungoliant while diminished but not much can be said there. Later on he has a 1v1 duel with Fingolfin after the Noldo King taunts him into a duel.
Overall, Sauron's battle tactics can vary. He generally tries to exploit his opponent's weaknesses in the few detailed accounts we outright have. In the magical duel between him and Finrod, he exploits the Kinslaying and its traumatic results to get the upper hand, be it magic, deceit, or shapeshifting. Against Huan he tries to take advantage of the prophesy behind the Hound's death by transforming into (what he believed) would be the thing Huan is prophesied to die by. He performs both ranged and melee combat depending on the situation, answering mental or magical combat from afar with his own or going into melee when enemies close in on him.
Morgoth we have little detail on but he seems to be more of a simple brute force combatant. The Valar raise mountains and he levels them. Fingolfin challenges him to a duel and he answers with a simple melee battle. Even his schemes are often (though not always) quite straightforward, with him making a distraction to go destroy the Two Lamps or doing the same against the Two Trees so he and Ungoliant can kill them. He is very patient though. He has waited decades or even millennia in preparation for a battle. As such, simply waiting out his opponent and taking advantage of his own immortality isn't outside his battle tactics.
This is more of a description of how they wage war. In standard battles, we don't really have much to work with in their "Prior to entering Eä" key outside of them singing so that's the go-to. Later is bit more detailed
For Sauron, his standard battle tactics in the First Age vary. If the enemy is using magic he seems to answer with his own. If the enemy is someone with a prophesised end, he tries to fulfil the conditions. He can do both ranged and melee and frequently shapeshifts to try and gain the advantage. For the Second Age we don't get much but there's not much reason to imagine his tactics shifted drastically since he retains his abilities but somewhat stronger. He does directly lead armies a lot in this time too.
Again, not much in the Last Alliance either. We know he engaged in melee against Elendil and Gil-galad. The former dying when struck down and the latter being burned by the heat of Sauron's hand but nothing too detailed. Presumably, he'd still use all his other tactics too in the right conditions.
WotR Sauron doesn't fight in the Books so we got nothing. He does mentally combat Gandalf the White to a stalemate, loses to Aragorn in the Palantir, and far earlier dominates Saruman in the Palantir. But the latter two are specific scenarios and the former is from a very far distance.
Morgoth we got very little. Against the Valar and Maiar at the beginning of Arda, their battles were performed by massive geographical alterations like sinking mountains, raising seas, etc. Later on, he gets wrestled to submission by Tulkas implying an attempted or forced melee. He also fights Ungoliant while diminished but not much can be said there. Later on he has a 1v1 duel with Fingolfin after the Noldo King taunts him into a duel.
Overall, Sauron's battle tactics can vary. He generally tries to exploit his opponent's weaknesses in the few detailed accounts we outright have. In the magical duel between him and Finrod, he exploits the Kinslaying and its traumatic results to get the upper hand, be it magic, deceit, or shapeshifting. Against Huan he tries to take advantage of the prophesy behind the Hound's death by transforming into (what he believed) would be the thing Huan is prophesied to die by. He performs both ranged and melee combat depending on the situation, answering mental or magical combat from afar with his own or going into melee when enemies close in on him.
Morgoth we have little detail on but he seems to be more of a simple brute force combatant. The Valar raise mountains and he levels them. Fingolfin challenges him to a duel and he answers with a simple melee battle. Even his schemes are often (though not always) quite straightforward, with him making a distraction to go destroy the Two Lamps or doing the same against the Two Trees so he and Ungoliant can kill them. He is very patient though. He has waited decades or even millennia in preparation for a battle. As such, simply waiting out his opponent and taking advantage of his own immortality isn't outside his battle tactics.
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This is more of a discussion thread topic but no, there is not a universal resistance to magic I know of, although they do resist certain applications of magic (like illusions). Not sure about High Elves.
Yes, verse-equalisation + most of it is innate or given by Eru.
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Bumping this again.Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing. I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas...
Hsharpe's proposed changes. I agreed with the intelligence changes mainly. Physical Durability Neg as well for Ainur of Greater Maiar and above levels (as they directly attack the soul). Possession and Precog Neg I agree with but I'll give them a more detailed look over once I get to them in the individual ability revisions.
To recap, Intelligence revisions, Dura-neg, Possession, and Precognition-negation
Intelligence revisions are
- Valar to Supergenius for being able to comprehend on the scale of the infinite universe (Varda knows all the regions of Eä for instance, aka the universe).
- Extraordinary Intelligence for the "Wise" for being able to accurately know the future as "foresight" via sheer intelligence and experience too, but this isn't the focus. This came up more as a supporting feat as the "Wise" are less intelligent than the Valar or alternative rating.
- They also can perceive all the past, which is an additional bit of support.
- Mandos to Nigh-Omniscient for knowing all things that shall be (minus stuff Eru withholds) and forgetting nothing.
- Manwë to Nigh-Omniscient as well for being the most knowledgeable of all the Valar (including Mandos) and being able to directly commune with Eru for knowledge, wisdom, and advice.
Possession is from Sauron and those he taught being able to possess bodies by force. However, it needs to consensual enter the body first.
For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it is not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.
Precog-neg is from Sauron obscuring the foresight and far sight of characters with "darkness".
“Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. ‘I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.”
“No, I did not find them,' said Gandalf. 'There was a darkness over the valleys of the Emyn Muil, and I did not know of their captivity, until the eagle told me.”
'Yes,' said Gandalf, '... Some things [Gwaihir] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'
'Then you know about Frodo!' said Gimli. 'How do things go with him?'
'I cannot say. He was saved from a great peril, but many lie before him still. He resolved to go alone to Mordor, and he set out: that is all that I can say.”
'Then you know about Frodo!' said Gimli. 'How do things go with him?'
'I cannot say. He was saved from a great peril, but many lie before him still. He resolved to go alone to Mordor, and he set out: that is all that I can say.”
- Notably Gandalf can drive off the "shadow", aka Sauron, but with great effort.
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@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @EliminatorVenom @Colonel_Krukov @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
We need some help here.
We need some help here.
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I am unsure, Tier 0 stuff are kind of known for a lot of other things. And I am unsure about Tier 1. Sounds like something Ultima would be better at evaluating, but I can try. Some of the other powers and ability additions look good though.
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Oh, I mentioned the tier 0 and 1 stuff kinda off-handedly, I'll remove that to avoid confusion, I'm still tackling that with Ultima in PMs.
I just want to evaluate the intelligence and abilities.
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Failing some further context for what this would actually entail, I think this is pretty weak evidence for Supergenius.
This seems fine. We've given similar ratings for analytical prediction in the past.
I'd like a scan for this one, these sorts of statements can be a bit finnicky.
Upscaling is fine, hinges on the last request for a scan. Obviously all of these require references and so on, these responses presume those will be given.
No qualms, although I may suggest a "likely" given the "It is said" bit, which makes it sound more like rumor and hearsay rather than objectively known fact.
Eh. I don't know much about what Elrond has of Precog, but I do know that Ainur precog itself is fairly limiting, and it may be scuffed by that limitation rather than direct influence of Sauron (or verse mechanics moreso than an ability of Sauron himself). I think it's fine as a possibly.
I'd meant to speak on this earlier, forgot.
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If you want to upgrade Eru Iluvatar to tier 0, you need to mention it in the thread linked below to receive help from Ultima.
vsbattles.com
1-A / High 1-A / Tier 0 Revisions Hub
Hi. Good to see you. So, it has finally happened. The new Tiering System is applied. Evil is defeated. We can all go home now. So, I'll be making this thread for a twofold purpose: 1. To keep track of the potential torrent of attempts at 1-A-through-0 upgrades resulting from the revisions...
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Thanks Bambu!
So the erma, or "prime matter" was the original matter all things came from and the Valar have a complete understanding of it and all its variations. All matter of the universe was theirs to comprehend (in part as they made it) and this expands to the scope of the infinite universe. Indeed, Varda for instance knows all regions of the universe despite its infinite size.
This is limited to their material however (presumably their concepts and direct design), which why they wouldn't be nigh-omniscient. Indeed, when the knowledge of all the Valar are gathered, Tolkien goes so far as to write that "all such knowledge" can be found of the prime matter and its variations, aka all knowledge of the physical universe.
As an additional aside, the evidence for the Ainur (not just the Valar) being able to see all the past. More of a supporting thing if anything.
I'll add that the "Shadow" referenced to be obscuring Gandalf and Elrond is Sauron or Mordor in the context.
The quotes should still be in the thread but I'll edit them in later.
Edit: Is Dura-neg also fine?
"But they had assisted in the general design of Eä, and severally, in different degrees and modes, in the production from the erma (or prime substance) of things of many kinds.... Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations."
“With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Ea.”
This is limited to their material however (presumably their concepts and direct design), which why they wouldn't be nigh-omniscient. Indeed, when the knowledge of all the Valar are gathered, Tolkien goes so far as to write that "all such knowledge" can be found of the prime matter and its variations, aka all knowledge of the physical universe.
"Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found (of the prime matter and variation); for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."
As an additional aside, the evidence for the Ainur (not just the Valar) being able to see all the past. More of a supporting thing if anything.
All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design
“Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of Manwë.”
- Just to be safe, Námo is another name for Mandos. He becomes synonymous with his dwelling.
I will add that "it is said" is more Tolkien's way of adding the "mythological" flair to his writing. Though I'm fine with a likely rating.
Elrond is one of the "wise" who can foresee the future. Much of this is just deduction, although some of it is genuine future sight (albeit often from the Valar)
It becomes known to the Wise (being the chieftains of the Eldar and the Istari... But the Sorcerer is aware of him; and being not yet grown to great power, he fears the eyes of Gandalf, and the strength of the Wise, and he deserts Dol Guldur and hides in the East again for a while.
- The wise includes the chieftains of the Eldar. By the Third Age, this includes Elrond. The Wise are also said to cause Sauron to desert Dol Guldur. This references the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur which includes Elrond.
"Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called “foresight” in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be “foresight” at second hand."
The quotes should still be in the thread but I'll edit them in later.
No problem!
Edit: Is Dura-neg also fine?
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Thanks. I'm still waiting for Ultima to get back to me on some points. It might be some time still before I add to that thread with my own.If you want to upgrade Eru Iluvatar to tier 0, you need to mention it in the thread linked below to receive help from Ultima.
1-A / High 1-A / Tier 0 Revisions Hub
Hi. Good to see you. So, it has finally happened. The new Tiering System is applied. Evil is defeated. We can all go home now. So, I'll be making this thread for a twofold purpose: 1. To keep track of the potential torrent of attempts at 1-A-through-0 upgrades resulting from the revisions...
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Just an additional point since The Wise's Intelligence is more or less a proper part of the thread now, but the Maiar should scale to/above The Wise.
The hierarchy of minds can be considered
"At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought transmission (sanwe-latya ‘thought-opening’), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order) Men are not specially considered, except in so far as they are included in general statements about the Incarnates (Mirröanwi). Of them Pengolodh says only: “Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will”."
The Istari, who are members of "The Wise" as noted above, are said to have lost a lot of their knowledge and memory as Maiar. While much of this was regained over time, the matter of fact is that they would possess less intellect as Istars than as Maiar. While Olorin is exceptionally wise for a Maia, others like Radagast are not stated to be overly wise for one of their kind and it can be assumed other Maiar are comparable to at least him in intellect. Thus other Maiar should at least be comparable to one of "The Wise"
So to summarise,
"All these things, says Pengolodh, are true of all minds, from the Ainur in the presence of Eru, or the great Valar such as Manwë and Melkor, to the Maiar in Eä, and down to the least of the Mirröanwi. But different states bring in limitations, which are not fully controlled by the will."
- Eru
- Valar
- Maiar
- The Mirröanwi/Children (aka humans, elves, and dwarves)
- Of course exceptions exist like Fëanor.
"At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought transmission (sanwe-latya ‘thought-opening’), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order) Men are not specially considered, except in so far as they are included in general statements about the Incarnates (Mirröanwi). Of them Pengolodh says only: “Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will”."
- In a discussion of the mind, the Maiar are lumped into the same category as the Valar. Meanwhile the Eldar/Elves are separate and lesser, while the minds of humans are weaker than them too (despite being of same design).
- At the very least, the minds of the Maiar are stronger than the Elves whose wiseset can be counted as among "The Wise".
"To the fathers of men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eönwë came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed."
- Indeed, Eönwë's teachings were a large part of why the Númenóreans were so much more advanced than other humans.
The Istari, who are members of "The Wise" as noted above, are said to have lost a lot of their knowledge and memory as Maiar. While much of this was regained over time, the matter of fact is that they would possess less intellect as Istars than as Maiar. While Olorin is exceptionally wise for a Maia, others like Radagast are not stated to be overly wise for one of their kind and it can be assumed other Maiar are comparable to at least him in intellect. Thus other Maiar should at least be comparable to one of "The Wise"
"Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf is evidently the next in the order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom."
- While Gandalf is said to be the wisest of the Maiar, someone like Radagast is considered one of the "The Wise" despite being notably not so wise for a Maia.
"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."
- Relearning implies their level of intellect as Maiar was at least on par with their Istar self.
So to summarise,
- Maiar possess superior minds to Elves.
- Wise Elves and Istari constitute "The Wise".
- The Istari are Maiar whose memories and knowledge were dimmed and had to be relearned (and who knows how much was considering they yearned for their memories of Valinor)
- At bare minimum, the Istari are thus comparable to their Maiar selves in intellect
- The Istari include Radagast, who is noted to be far less wise than Saruman or Gandalf. He is still one of "The Wise" despite this.
- It is supposable that Radagast isn't too exceptional among the Maiar in terms of intellect, and many Maiar are likely comparable to him.
- Maiar have better minds than the Elves which should include "The Wise"
- Radagast is likely not too exceptional for other Maiar and so they likely should be comparable to him.
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Mr. Bambu
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On the matter of Supergenius: I'm still on the fence, I'd agree with "At least Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius".
Nigh-Omniscience is fine.
I'd be against Precog-Neg for Sauron, from the quotes. They seem to more consistently suggest that this Precog is rather Analytical Prediction, and that can be confounded without a particular ability towards that end.
Dura Neg in that proposal suggests that they can use Fear Manipulation on one's spirit to reduce any given target to "impotence"- this is not really Durability Negation, but rather a bypassing of the need to interface with Durability at all. Do correct me if I'm missing something.
Nigh-Omniscience is fine.
I'd be against Precog-Neg for Sauron, from the quotes. They seem to more consistently suggest that this Precog is rather Analytical Prediction, and that can be confounded without a particular ability towards that end.
Dura Neg in that proposal suggests that they can use Fear Manipulation on one's spirit to reduce any given target to "impotence"- this is not really Durability Negation, but rather a bypassing of the need to interface with Durability at all. Do correct me if I'm missing something.
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I'm not too against that.
Are you fine with scaling the Maiar to "The Wise"?
I'm not too married to the idea, but it does say
“Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. ‘I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.”
Implying Sauron is doing something to confound their Analytical Prediction (which I assume you accept alongside the Intelligence upgrade). Not sure what this would be rated as... a bizzare addition to Darkness Manipulation?
"But the Eldar held that “spirits”, the more as they had more native inherent power, could emit their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily upon other spirits, or other incarnate persons (via their fëar), but also in the case of great spirits (such as the Valar or greater máyar) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of bodies normally necessary in the case of “fairondi” or incarnates."
The Fear Manip stuff is something I plan to tackle seperately. I forgot that was on here. I assume that's under Hsharpe's original proposal.
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It does say that, but this is all poetic speech that requires interpretation, and their predictive abilities are already stated to be limited in of themselves. So, it may simply be nothing- it is not an ability of Sauron's but rather an instance of their limitations being apparent.
Just affecting the soul isn't Dura Neg. You need to damage it, or at least kill the body by interfacing with it somehow. Dura Neg relates strictly to damaging someone and bypassing their traditional durability in doing so.
Regarding the Wise: I trust your judgement, I'll sign off on scaling the Maiar as you wish.
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- #190
It is poetic speech, but it is quite literal. Elrond cannot see the future as Sauron is doing something to obscure it. Gandalf and other make repeated comment of "the Shadow" veiling things. The third quote above has Gandalf explicitly say he cannot see Frodo and Sam once they enter Mordor for instance.
"In addition Manwë, the most powerful spirit in Arda, in this respect was Lord of Air and Winds, and the winds were in primitive Eldarin thought to be especially his emission of power for himself."
Tilion can fight spirits for instance
"Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."
And the Ainur were capable of conflicting with each other before they created bodies for themselves.
"Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and Earth should wither ere it flowered. And Manwë said unto Melkor: ‘This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here no less than thou.’ And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what"
Souls that seek to possess a body also contest and fight with the other soul, potentially harming the body greatly in the process.
"For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it is not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."
As they can combat souls and emit power upon souls, it is likely harm can be done even if not destruction.
Edit:
"The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated."
"...whereas a disembodied spirit yearned for its body as its natural and unique housing, and in the Halls of Waiting dwelt much in memory of its lost companion. Now the Valar, sub-creators under Eru, could make use of this memory; without any interrogation, since the mind of a disembodied spirit was open to them completely, and with far keener insight and knowledge than any possessed by the spirit itself. From this “inspection”, having among them as a whole a complete power over the physical substances of Middle-earth, they could reconstitute a body totally suitable to the deprived spirit."
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- #191
To add to the point of Ainur being able to harm souls, we know their souls can be harmed and healed, which suggests harm did occur in their fights.
It seems highly supposable as
"He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.(11) The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, there- fore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power."
It seems highly supposable as
- Ainur fought one another as souls or as a embodied Ainu vs a soul.
- Ainur souls have been/are capable of being harmed and healing
- Thus it is likely harm occurred in 1. due to 2. being noted.
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See, all of that is probably fine for Dura Neg, but the original stuff didn't really offer anything to suggest it. Dura Neg is fine.
Still not convinced of Precog Neg, so I'm voting no on that.
Still not convinced of Precog Neg, so I'm voting no on that.
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- #193
I'm not too married to Precog Neg so I'm fine with that being disputed.
Thanks again Bambu.
I'll start the 48 hours wait unless further input comes in
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They are analysing to predict the future, it should fall under there.
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Yes, if that's possible, thanks!Thank you for helping out.
Do you need help with temporarily unlocking those pages?
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