Lord of the Rings revisions

[Arceus0x]

so i've been looking around...wouldn't it be fairer to use this map for the size of mt.doom? I mean the mountains are accurate.

btw what is the correct size again? the one you use? sorry didn't have time to read it all out.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm not sure if the other map is significantly different, but this is the official map made by Tolkien and his son.

 

[Arceus0x]

yeah seems pretty damn accurate

 

[Antvasima]

Sauron

Ëonwë (it's not even spelled right)

Ilmarë

Saruman

Gandalf

Melian

Balrogs (Lord of the Rings)

Fëanor

Glorfindel

Gil-galad

Galadriel

Also, while I'm at it, is there anyone here willing to implement the changes I listed above? I can do it if need be, but I'm really bad at condensing information for other people, I tend to write in too much detail and bulk.

I will unlock the pages.

Is somebody willing to help him out please?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Sorry Ant, I only know stuff about the LOTR games (specifically Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War since I have played through both multiple times). Probably won't be of much help here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Slightly off-topic but is there any reason Boromir is only 10-A and not 9-B unlike the rest of the Fellowship? He's kinda implied to be comparable to Aragorn iirc and fought Orcs too.

 

[Hellbeast]

I have the Silmarillion and the Hobbit, I am planning to read them both + Lord of the Rings when I get my hands on em.

Also, would anyone be interested in searching thru the Middle-Earth RPG and making profiles for it? I hear it has good hax and what not and gives even more lore to Tolkiens original stuff, it was made a couple of decades before the 2000s trilogy came out so it was pretty close to the books. I was also thinking of maybe just making everything composite?

We could probably have a separate one for it but idk if it’s canon to the books; Tolkien died in 73 and his son Christopher was infamously stringent on allowing things to be canon

 

[Tyranno223]

Slightly off-topic but is there any reason Boromir is only 10-A and not 9-B unlike the rest of the Fellowship? He's kinda implied to be comparable to Aragorn iirc and fought Orcs too.

Ah right, I forgot to overview the humans, though I did say I'd cover possible tier changes on another day.

There's not really a reason for Boromir not to scale I suppose, he was one of the greatest warriors of the age, and whenever Aragorn went to battle, Boromir was rarely far behind (both went to challenge the Balrog, just before Gandalf broke the bridge).

 

[Tyranno223]

We could probably have a separate one for it but idk if it’s canon to the books; Tolkien died in 73 and his son Christopher was infamously stringent on allowing things to be canon

If TheMerchant66 is talking aboht MERP, it isn't canon, but I suppose it'd make for an interesting seperate canon, since it expands beyond Tolkein's work (sometimes contradicting it at times).

 

[Antvasima]

Slightly off-topic but is there any reason Boromir is only 10-A and not 9-B unlike the rest of the Fellowship? He's kinda implied to be comparable to Aragorn iirc and fought Orcs too.

Ah right, I forgot to overview the humans, though I did say I'd cover possible tier changes on another day.

There's not really a reason for Boromir not to scale I suppose, he was one of the greatest warriors of the age, and whenever Aragorn went to battle, Boromir was rarely far behind (both went to challenge the Balrog, just before Gandalf broke the bridge).

That should preferably be adjusted then.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, big thanks to everybody who are helping out. It is very appreciated, as this verse is in poor condition.

 

[Hellbeast]

Sauron
To begin with, Sauron has never been described as the strongest Maia, and that should be removed from his profile. Instead, it should be noted that he was the "greatest" of Morgoth's named servants in the First Age (thus including Gothmog and Ancalagon), as was said in the Silmarillion (on p.23, the 1st on the "Enemies" section.

I believe he's mentioned as the greatest Mair of Aule which could be neat for scaling but that's likely it
He's very reliably stronger then Angcalagon and Carcharoth

Saruman and Gandalf
Curumo, aka Saruman's true form, is not stated to be stronger than Olorin, Gandalf's true form. It is stated in the Unfinished Tales that Saruman was likely higher in Valinórean stature/ranking, but this is not necessarily a reference to power, and if anything, it is repeatedly hinted that Gandalf was stronger than Saruman in both true form and as Istari, although I'll come to this on another day.

This; I never got why we were saying Saruman's True Form was >> Gandalf's (As Istari I feel they should be relative)

Also worth noting is that Galadriel was never compared to Saruman in power, or vice-versa, and the same is true for Gandalf (addendum, Gandalf is compared to Galadriel indirectly, and this'll be important for a future thing).

Interesting

Durin's Bane
Durin's Bane is never called one of the weakest Balrogs, and fleeing from the mightiest army in existence is not a cause to suppose him to be, as even Sauron, the greatest of Morgoth's servants, begged for pardon to Eönwë, after Morgoth's defeat.

Yeah Durin’s Bane has no anti feats and I don't know why we're saying hes trash

He therefore not only should get this noted in his profile, but he should get an at least added to his base power (of which I wonder why he has a key with the Silmarills)

Also his weaknesses are confusing, he isn't really mentally unstable, rather his short-temper is his weakness, and what is CIS referring to in this instance?

I’d say we can probably list his weakness as his temper (which could be exploited in a fight)

Glorfindel
Glorfindel not only successfully killed a Balrog, but is also noted to become regarded as an "equal" by the Maiar of Valinor after being reimbodied (in the "Last Writings" section of the "Peoples of Middle Earth"), and he was said to be stronger after returning, thanks to his self-sacrifice.

So he’d be a top tier?

Also why does his weakness call him "not fully immortal" in Middle Earth? Tolkien's work does not have the Elves slowly die outside of Valinor, they diminish sure, but they never die, and it's claimed that the Elves who remain in and after the Fourth Age became the inspiration for our modern conception of fairies. (not to mention that this is the only profile with this supposed weakness)

Gil-Galad
Gil-Galad did fight Sauron with the One Ring, but Tolkien's letters note "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established." which may imply he was still personally weakened, although it may only refer to his subects.

I’d also note it took both him and Elendil to do much to him at the cost of their lives (Isildur then jumped in I believe)

Also, again Sauron is never stated to be stronger than Eönwë.

Galadriel
Minor detail, but Dol Guldur was not made by Sauron, as it was made by the Silvan Elves, originally being called Amon Lanc, the capital of Oropher's realm (the father of Thranduil), which Sauron took over and fortified after it was abandoned.

Also, it should be noted that the Silmarillion describes Galadriel as the "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" after the death of Gil-Galad, making her potentially above Glorfindel.

There’s also a statement Sauron would need to confront her himself which solidly puts her above the Witch King in power.

I'd need your take on whether we should scale the Mair's physicals to their powers tho.

About this. Did LordWhis really do something bad enough to warrant a permanent ban, or should we let him back to our community?

What did Whis even do?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I'll edit the Boromir page then but I'll leave the high tiers for Tyranno

 

[Antvasima]

What did Whis even do?

It seems like he posted something pornographic, but unless it was something absolutely vile, I don't think that it warrants a permanent ban.

 

[Antvasima]

I'll edit the Boromir page then but I'll leave the high tiers for Tyranno

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'll edit the Boromir page then but I'll leave the high tiers for Tyranno

Faramir should scale to Boromir by the way, and if no one else is able to make the changes, I'll do them, but I'll likely need someone to overview them afterwards, to make them concise.

Addendum - the pages are still locked at the moment.

 

[Hellbeast]

It seems like he posted something pornographic, but unless it was something absolutely vile, I don't think that it warrants a permanent ban.

Oh yeah then he deserves one

 

[Tyranno223]

Sauron was not called the greatest of Aule's folk (though I don't doubt that he was), although I believe a line exists that calls him mighty among them.

Glorfindel is certainly top tier, likely being in the top 5 for the Noldor (Feanor and Fingolfin being clearly above, with Galadriel and Gil-Galad likely/potentially being mightier in some manner respectively)

The Witch King is not necessarily weaker than Galadriel, as a large part of Lorien's protectioj came from the ring, and Gandalf himself is not sure if he, or the Witch King could win in a duel. (And he is shown to ve comparable, albeit inferior to Sauron in some of the extended texts).

I have wider details regarding the Witch King, Gandalf, the Valar, and Morgoth, but these are for later due to a potential rearranging of scaling.

Moreover I have a list of possible abilities that may be added (remarkably Frodo deserves some more), and the few human characters need some revision (Aragorn is a strange blend of movie and book here).

 

[Hellbeast]

Sauron was not called the greatest of Aule's folk (though I don't doubt that he was), although I believe a line exists that calls him mighty among them.

Huh my bad

Glorfindel is certainly top tier, likely being in the top 5 for the Noldor (Feanor and Fingolfin being clearly above, with Galadriel and Gil-Galad likely/potentially being mightier in some manner respectively)

That certainly makes sense

The Witch King is not necessarily weaker than Galadriel, as a large part of Lorien's protectioj came from the ring, and Gandalf himself is not sure if he, or the Witch King could win in a duel. (And he is shown to ve comparable, albeit inferior to Sauron in some of the extended texts).

IDK I feel the implication is certainly there if Tolkien mentions Sauron having to face her himself (implying he couldn't trust one of his servants to do it)
I amvery curious about the Witch King being relative to Sauron tho (I'm assuming this is when he was amped in Return of the King?)

I have wider details regarding the Witch King, Gandalf, the Valar, and Morgoth, but these are for later due to a potential rearranging of scaling.

Moreover I have a list of possible abilities that may be added (remarkably Frodo deserves some more), and the few human characters need some revision (Aragorn is a strange blend of movie and book here).

Ooh exciting (Feel free to shoot me a message about it0

 

[Tyranno223]

Btw, if people don't own a copy of the LOTR related titles, the letters of Tolkein are easy to find online. I'm not sure if links to stuff like this are allowed, but here's one.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59d68c02c534a5079b390c38/t/5c2d3e3f575d1f37b45d4750/1546468936692/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

 

[Tyranno223]

There's a lot in there which I don't know about, so there might be more details, than the ones I found.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The Nazguls have been decided to be rating-less due to inconsistency iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out Tyranno223. It is very appreciated, as these pages really need to be improved.

 

[Tyranno223]

The Nazguls have been decided to be rating-less due to inconsistency iirc.

I'd agree with that (unless something comes up), but the Witch King is far more consistent, at least by the Third Book, where it's implied he's become stronger.

In particular, the Third Book outright states Eowyn could not kill him, were it not for a magical dagger designed to destroy him by a race of High-men capable of cursing a nation to become an undead host, being stabbed into him.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you very much for helping out Tyranno223. It is very appreciated, as these pages really need to be improved.

It's no problem, but while I'm at it, are the pages unlocked now? I don't seem to have permission to edit them.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I recall, I unlocked all of the listed pages earlier, so you should be able to edit them.

You need an auto-confirmed wiki account though.

 

[Tyranno223]

From what I recall, I unlocked all of the listed pages earlier, so you should be able to edit them.

You need an auto-confirmed wiki account though.

That seems to be the problem. What's the requirement to get auto confirmation? I thought it was just length of time.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you simply need an account that has been active for more than 4 or 10 days, but am not sure. Maybe Fandom has accidentally changed the requirements after their system update.

I will ask our wiki manager.

Can you link to your Fandom account please?

 

[Tyranno223]

Just in case this issue isn't resolvable in a reasonable timeframe, is anyone willing to make the changes themselves? I've listed all the main details above, and I can be consulted on any specifics.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Regarding Sauron and other Maiar being High Universal, I believe they should be bumped to Universe+ tier. Their Ainur forms exist beyond the space-time of Eä, all Ainur do. All of them see the Universe as a small kingdom that they see its entire timeline of events all at once, so I'm not sure why they're High Universal.

 

[Antvasima]

Just in case this issue isn't resolvable in a reasonable timeframe, is anyone willing to make the changes themselves? I've listed all the main details above, and I can be consulted on any specifics.

I think that you likely just need to confirm your Fandom email address to be able to edit in the wiki.

Regarding Sauron and other Maiar being High Universal, I believe they should be bumped to Universe+ tier. Their Ainur forms exist beyond the space-time of Eä, all Ainur do. All of them see the Universe as a small kingdom that they see its entire timeline of events all at once, so I'm not sure why they're High Universal.

We used to consider fractions of Low 2-C as High 3-A, but I am not sure about our current policy in this regard.

Also, do their scales of power genuinely transcend the entire universal continuum in their true states?

 

[TheMerchant66]

Yup, all of the Ainur in their true forms exist with Eru Ilúvatar within the timelass halls and all of them participated in the Music that led to its creation.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Maybe you are correct then, but I prefer input from other knowledgeable members first.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'd need to check on the exact quotes, but Tulkas' entry refers to Arda as the little kingdom, and to enter the world, Eru had all the Ainur that wished to go, bind themselves to the world.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Understood.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm making the changes to the pages now, but I also wanted to add that I found a quote describing some of the Maiar as "Nigh as great as themselves", in regards to the Valar. I'll be adding this to the description of Eönwë, and Ilmarë, as both were described as chief among the Maiar.

This'll also support the earlier point about the Maiar potentially being in the same tier as the Valar.

Also how do I change the title of pages? Ëonwë should be Eönwë.

 

[Tyranno223]

Saruman's page is locked. For some reason it's called Saruman (Canon), despite being the only version of Saruman on the wiki, and despite being the only page to have (Canon) in it.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I'm incredibly happy this is being made. I wanted to revise the LOTR pages for the longest time but I didn't have the time to finish the Silmarillion or the last book of LOTR, so I couldn't help much. I'm willing to help as much as I can now!

I'll try to get my old feat threads of LOTR and see what I can do. I won't be much help for the higher tiers, I'm afraid, but I can do some stuff for the lower tiers and the Nazgûl. I dispute the notion that the Nazgûl should be Unknown, before anything, and there are some stuff that ought to result in better justifications.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm incredibly happy this is being made. I wanted to revise the LOTR pages for the longest time but I didn't have the time to finish the Silmarillion or the last book of LOTR, so I couldn't help much. I'm willing to help as much as I can now!

I'll try to get my old feat threads of LOTR and see what I can do. I won't be much help for the higher tiers, I'm afraid, but I can do some stuff for the lower tiers and the Nazgûl. I dispute the notion that the Nazgûl should be Unknown, before anything, and there are some stuff that ought to result in better justifications.

I agree with you on the Nazgul, especially since I can't remember there being many times "ordinary" people matched them (Aragorn is not ordinary, I'll come to that later, but he beats Sauron in a battle of wills, albeit with the odds in his favour).